Brawler Archive
Thread: ATTENTION ALL!!! COMBAT BALANCE DISPARITY!!!
I wrote this on the dev forums, as a reply, and it fits okay here:
Xodarap777 wrote:
aries_liak wrote:
You have built a game where the only ability to compete with another person is to spend your time grinding out 3 primary professions. TKA, pistoleer, fencer. Once that combo is achieved a player can compete on par with his other fellow players in combat with one another.
It's too bad that people have only discovered ONE possible combination of combat professions for power gaming. First, there are roles to be played. The one you have mentioned is called a tank. Use your fists or knucklers with this combo and you'll lose your sacred dodging ability, as it is weapon-specific (to pistols and 1H swords), so the TKA is only for the melee/ranged defenses. Pistols and swords don't do close to the damage (at a time or per second on average) as most other weapons classes, hence the tank role: this person is there to "take" damage (to distract the offense), so that damage-dealing classes, like commandos, can get their attacks in without having to get killed (since they can't take much damage, without crap for defense abilities). Since the tank is redundant with creatures, this class combo is superfluous, and thereby ineffective. Too bad you haven't thought of that. MCHs spend far less SP for several tanks, and they can add to that their own offensive abilities.
This is not to mention that the "dodge combo," created by stacking pistoleer and fencer dodge bonuses, is erroneously seen as unfairly "uber." Carbineer and Swordsman counterattacks stack just as well, as do rifleman/pikeman blocks. They are all the same in effect. Still, this is a tanking combo, which is unnecessary because of CHs.
The problem here is that everyoneb!tches about what one combat class can do, and yet they can't. And everyone thinks that the ability they don't have is the better one. Watch as those people switch over, only to complain that a third class has an ability they don't have, which is, again, seen as better. They're all a bunch of whiney 5-year-olds who want whatever the other kids are playing with. Untilthey have it.
I have played every class in the game except for image designer, musician (thought it redundant with dancer), chef, and politician. I have enjoyed them all in their own right. I probably enjoy my high-damage commando/TKA character the best in combat, although he dies MUCH faster than my low-damage dodge-tank character. He also kills MUCH faster. THAT'S CALLED BALANCE. There's balance in differences. It would suck tomake all of us the same. The dodge-tank can whine all day that they should be able to do the damage the commando/TKA can do ("I spent just as many skill points!"), and the commando/TKA could whine all day that they should be able to stay alive like the dodge-tank. The two should group, as far as I'm concerned, and utilize each others' talents in complement. If they want to solo, however, they should choose whichever they want. You can't have everything.
As far as the grind goes... welcome to another MMO! If you can't manage to have fun, you're being a powergamer. Fine by me if that's what you want to be, but don't complain about the natural consequences. For non power-gamers, there's richness in conversation at the med centers and starports. There's beauty in the diverse landscapes of the many planets. There's fun in duelling your buddies or participating in player-made events. I am, myself, a powergamer, but I manage to enjoy the downtime when I can, and try not to be too impatient. I don't have to be able to kill anyone and everyone that challenges me... Think of real-life martial artists and combatants. To be good at what they do, they had to grind. A LOT! I'm sure Chuck Norris put in a TON of work, most of it far from enjoyable. But your average black belt can pack a punch, and can have a life, too. It's up to you which you want to be.
Don't blame the devs!
BH is a tactical profession, with varied and diverse, interesting and powerful specials. They get a wide range of weapons, for each ofwhich they get WAY more positive modifiers than even the elite weapon classes for those weapons. Whoever's a BH here that's complaining about pistoleers has obviously never been one. I've been both an MBH and a master pistoleer, and there's NO CONTEST. Master pistoleers don't even hit their own speed cap, and they don't have close to MBH accuracy. Their specials suck. Not only do they lack the ability (like an MBH) to hit mind and to do fire DOT, but their few high-damage specials have horrible DPS (average damage per second, due to the gross reloading time).Of course, if you combine the MBH bonuses with pistoleer, it looks a lot different. Still, dodging half the time doesn't make up for worthless specials and bad accuracy.
MBHs' DPS is one of the best in the game. I'm serious, do the math. And DPS is really what counts. No, they aren't up to par with TKAs, but they don't have to stay on top of someone, either (a real pain, believe me!).
Why is everyone obsessed with being defensive, anyways? You don't see everyone trolling offensive professions' forums about their offensive bonuses being out of control (*cough* BH *cough*). At least not to the extent of the recent "*Whine* Why do pistoleers and fencers get to suck offensively but muster up a little extra defense" spree! Try posting offensive multipliers and bonuses, and you'll turn this chart upside-down. That's called balance, stupid. 
BHs really should stop complaining and learn to use their profession. I enjoyed it, and sometimes I still play my MBH. When I don't, it's a matter of taste, not 1337 frustration that I'm not "uber" enough.
You can't show much of a "combat balance disparity" without information on the offensive capabilities.
As it stands, some professions have poor defenses and great offense, and other professions have great defenses and poor offense. Some professions have targeted HAM attacks and state effects, other professions have random HAM attacks and no state effects at all. Some professions focus on one type of weapon, others have multiple weapons in their arsenal. Etc etc.
All your spammed post is doing is focusing on defense. As such, your post itself is far from balanced.
the reason us melee fighters have higher defenses and tanking ability is because we are supposed to be in the front lines taking all the damage, to keep you ranged fighters from getting beaten down in close quarters combat. would you being a bounty hunter stand in front of a enraged bull rancor and shoot at it while it beats on you? or would you be shooting from cover at 50 or more meters away? whereas us melee figters stand and take the punishment from close range, and take the hits. think of it that way.
if a master melee fighter were to have the same defense and mods as a master ranged fighter we wouldnt be able to play this game without getting killed every fifteen seconds as we are in melee range trying to kill things. we would have to pick up ranged skills in order to start attacking from a distance, instead of charging into battle and killing the thing with a melee weapon. that is not a balance issue, it is a issue of life and death doing the type of combat you like. so quit thinking melee defense need to be lowered, or ranged needs to be raised, because we are supposed to be able to take a hit, whereas a ranged fighter should be killed instantly in melee damage range.
I don't know if you're really.... thinking this through. I'm going to guess you're an American, which I am too, because you're living under the assumption that all men are created equal. Despite what the government and media tell you, people are not equal. Professions are not equal. When everything is the same, life is very boring and really unfilling. Rifleman are high damage dealers, who have high ranged defense (countersniping, makes sense) and moderate melee defense. Considering the fact that armor is pretty much useless to us.... this would make sense. We rely on other professions to get in close and do the fighting. What I think most Bounty Hunters fail to grasp is that BH is a primarily PvE profession. Youhave an entire branch dedicated to PvE. Bounty Hunters, are by nature solitary "Hunters" of a bounty. A bounty is one man/woman/wookie. Bounty Hunters are NOT soldiers. They're detectives.
When you take what I just said into context, it makes perfect sense for the bounty hunter to have low defense mods. Frankly, you don't need. You overpower your marks with superior weaponry and mitigate their damage with superior armor. Equality might make for great civil rights, but it makes for a really **edit**ty game.
Onslaught2k5 wrote:
Of course he doesn't mention that BH's get more offensive bonus than any other profession...
Exactly.
You can't show much of a "combat balance disparity" without information on the offensive capabilities in addition to defensive capabilities.
As it stands, some professions have poor defenses and great offense, and other professions have great defenses and poor offense. Some professions have targeted HAM attacks and state effects, other professions have random HAM attacks and no state effects at all. Some professions focus on one type of weapon, others have multiple weapons in their arsenal. Etc etc.
All this spammed post is doing is focusing on defense. As such, the post itself is far from balanced.
pikeman don't do math.
...however what do all the numbers mean? They are numbers. Do they all actually function in some capacity? In pikeman, no. It has been seen time and again that a bunch of our numbers are just that, numbers on a page. We dont do this, they dont do that. Statistics are useless in a game where they represent broken things. TKA can have +629 defense, and pikeman can have +434 block, doesn't matter if they don't work.
Is this a question of balance, or a better looking stat sheet. Maybe pikeman could have a +212 dance. That would balance things out nicely.
biwan: MohrTrue, I sort of unintentionally developed into one of the crazier varieties of defensive builds, and even now I still only win about 7/10 duels with him. And using the "skill points" argument so prevalent in the Bounty Hunter boards, I spent significantly more points into pure combat than he did, since Scout isn't a combat class in and of itself.
Bounty Hunter and Commando are, as much as the members of those classes don't like to admit it, SUPPORT classes. Bounty Hunters have a special for every status effect in the game except disease and poison, in addition to a few crazy combinations like KDfire. However, they lack the defense to hold their own in a straight up fight in a crowd. If they're shooting in on another's fight, those statuseffects they can apply assure victory. When needed they can also pull that armor piercing heavy weapon and start pouring out thousands of PvPdamage.
Commando is even more so support. As far as I know, their defenses are 0, with only the tiny amounts of rangeddefense from Marksman -Ranged Support. They do have the infamously heinous flamer, though, as well as Heavy Weapons. If someone else is taking the hits, NOTHING can match the sheer damage output of a commando.
Oh, and we need the missing sword added... we have the cert, but it doesn't exist in the game.
Lastly, maybe ALL master's should have a unique weapon that they are able to exclusively use.
VikaLine wrote:
... what other pistol users can target the mindpool and put a burn on there opponet -none-
Any pistoleer that takes Rifleman and Commando, which they have more than enough pts to do...and they have the points to master all 2 of them and still take FT3 out of commando, which creates a much nastier build than the 217pt BH.
Vyn_Drayko wrote:
I ask that issues pertaining to our offense be set aside, that is another issue, complaint, and person to complain for.
LOL
Please ignore all the stuff MBH's are better than everybody else in and let's focus on what they're worse in. That way we can change itand they'llbebetter than everybody in everything.
If it was possible to land these attacks you might have a point...but the rash of defense mods has made it very difficult, my miss rates are at best 50%, if the player is actually running as template that stacks defense mods that rate blossoms to 90%+
All the offense in the world doesn't matter if you can't hit the target.
Other classes are having the same issues with landing hits in PVP, but at least they are reaping the benefits of the defense loving the devs gave out and BH is a sitting duck.