Bounty Hunter Archive

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rYsyn wrote:

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Tanks wrote:

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rYsyn wrote:

.... But the ability of a Jedi to cloak and receive buffs without being attacked is a valid issue.

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This is the only valid argument in this whole thread. When there is a bug or a design problem with an ability we should try to get that fixed, not try to nerf the ability to hell and back.

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Agreed, I've asked about 4 times what the "real" issue is.

As I understand it, a Combat Medic or Doctor can BUFF a Jedi while he is clocked, thus making the Jedi unattackable to the BH (assumes clocking breaks combat or after time the combat auto drops).

Seems to me that the JEdi / BH "TEF" needs to apply to BUFFs (if they are in combat) and there isan issue with the "targeting" of Medics when Jedi are clocked. It is my understanding that if a Jedi is clocked then they are suppose to be untargetable, so not sure how they are able to get buffed.

So, as I understand it, there are 2 issues

• BH / Jedi TEF appling to Buffs (While in combat and this my not even be the issue)


• Medic's ability to target Jedi when they are clocked

Is that it or am I missing something?

Message Edited by rYsyn on 07-26-2005 12:37 PM

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I think the TEF does prevent a Doc from buffing though. What's happening is the Jedi is waiting for the TEF to wear off and then the Doc applies the buff then.

As Tanks said, attack the exploit not the actual skill.

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WookieOgre wrote:

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rYsyn wrote:

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Tanks wrote:

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rYsyn wrote:

.... But the ability of a Jedi to cloak and receive buffs without being attacked is a valid issue.

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This is the only valid argument in this whole thread. When there is a bug or a design problem with an ability we should try to get that fixed, not try to nerf the ability to hell and back.

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Agreed, I've asked about 4 times what the "real" issue is.

As I understand it, a Combat Medic or Doctor can BUFF a Jedi while he is clocked, thus making the Jedi unattackable to the BH (assumes clocking breaks combat or after time the combat auto drops).

Seems to me that the JEdi / BH "TEF" needs to apply to BUFFs (if they are in combat) and there is an issue with the "targeting" of Medics when Jedi are clocked. It is my understanding that if a Jedi is clocked then they are suppose to be untargetable, so not sure how they are able to get buffed.

So, as I understand it, there are 2 issues

• BH / Jedi TEF appling to Buffs (While in combat and this my not even be the issue)
• Medic's ability to target Jedi when they are clocked

Is that it or am I missing something?

Message Edited by rYsyn on 07-26-2005 12:37 PM

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I think the TEF does prevent a Doc from buffing though. What's happening is the Jedi is waiting for the TEF to wear off and then the Doc applies the buff then.

As Tanks said, attack the exploit not the actual skill.

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dingdingdingding. winner.

While we're at it, it would be nice to eliminate the graphical bugs (and resulting exploits) regarding Cloak, too. Don't tell me the player base all have their shadows set to simple for purely visual/performance reasons

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Corvett wrote:

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rYsyn wrote:

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Oblox2 wrote:
didnt you quit tucheck?

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You cannot argue his point, so instead you are attacking him? What does his quitting the game have to do with Jedi being able to Clock themself?

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Perhaps the fact that we have enough cry babies that are playing and we don't need people who are not playing to add to that whineing? Perhaps we should take alook at some Bh abilites and start asking for nerfs? Keep this crap up and that is what this is going to spark and that isn't good for either of us.

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Yes....for the record I have cancled my accounts. However, I DO have time left.

While I appericate the name calling, yeah like your the first, you will NEVER see the idiocy in my example. I'm a BH, I have a droid that tells me EXACTLY where my target is, so it's no great mystery where the Jedi is....on top of that I see a magical little beam of light going from one Jedi to another...I wonder where my target is? It's just plain stupid. When patch 20 first came out, I thought it was great, I really did. it took a lot away fromt he Cloak ability when I could target them. A Jedi is cloaked and trying to escape.....FINE, that makes sense. However, now we have Jedi transfering Force, and my droid sitting right on top of them....

Cloak is the ability to trick a mind into NOT seeing a Jedi....yet for all that my eyes cannot see, I know exactly where the Jedi is...even more so when I see Force being transfered. I believe Cloak should break for anything outside of movement. Although I'm sure that's just my opinion.

I need to change a few things I think....I thought about it, and I never really said what I wanted to say.

I don't see anything wrong with Claok itself...as an ability. The problem I think I have it the ease of which it can be used. It's not very hard for an unsuspecting Jedi (the perfect BH target) to perform a KD and get 20m out to cloak, then wait for the TEF to expire, call in a Doc for buffs (all the while standing cloaked around other people), then if the BH is still there, rinse and repeat. It's the ultimate "time out" I'm not ready to fight for Jedi....not the "wow, that was a narrow escape".

Someone just tell me how using Cloak like this is any different then the broken house TEFs we JUST recieved a fix for and I'll re-think my opinion.

Both could not be attacked when less then 25m away (I stand at the door..lol), both could get buffed, both can regen force. And it's not even a Master ability.....now tell me how they are different, please.

OOOPs, quoted wrong post, statement remains the same.

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Why do you have to run through a crowded area? Equip a gun and walk smooth like you belong there. I think it's hillarious seeing little shadows moving across the groundin a city or are standing there at some deserted shuttle port all scared, thinking no one knows they're there. I see you.

Message Edited by Obeewana_Doobie on 07-26-2005 11:58 AM

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FernGully wrote:

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Tucheck wrote:
I need to change a few things I think....I thought about it, and I never really said what I wanted to say.

I don't see anything wrong with Claok itself...as an ability. The problem I think I have it the ease of which it can be used. It's not very hard for an unsuspecting Jedi (the perfect BH target) to perform a KD and get 20m out to cloak, then wait for the TEF to expire, call in a Doc for buffs (all the while standing cloaked around other people), then if the BH is still there, rinse and repeat. It's the ultimate "time out" I'm not ready to fight for Jedi....not the "wow, that was a narrow escape".

Someone just tell me how using Cloak like this is any different then the broken house TEFs we JUST recieved a fix for and I'll re-think my opinion.

Both could not be attacked when less then 25m away (I stand at the door..lol), both could get buffed, both can regen force. And it's not even a Master ability.....now tell me how they are different, please.

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How is it different? In short, cloak costs force. Sitting in a house doesn't. The more people around, the more it costs.

First off, lets throw away the doc buff and meditate thing alltogether. You can't get buffed by a doc while cloaked other than with bugs, and you can't meditate after you've cloaked other than with bugs. And lets set the bugs aside for a moment and just talk about how these things are intended to work.

Lets look at it this way. You take a mission. Its your typical, average, everyday starport duelin Jedi. You motor out to the starport, lookin inconspicuous cause there are so many other people around. You sit there and watch your mark duel, biding your time, thinking about how you're gonna play this. You watch him duel, make note of his skills. You never see him cloak or use things like lightning or choke, so you don't know he's a cloaker.

He is in the middle of a duel, so you decide now is your moment, and open up on him with a KD. He somehow manages to get up, get healed, and realize he's gettin shot at by you in time to get a move on. You assume he's running so you chase and kite, but really, he's just looking for some breathing room to cloak in. He manages to make it to a clear spot and you see the dreaded +CLOAK+ go up over his head, and your radar clears. Poo.

You make a judgement call. You now no longer have the element of surprise (your "alpha strike" didn't get the job done). Some BHs will simply give up on such missions, and go get new ones, or else, they'll simply leave and come back a few hours (or even a day) later when they can once again enjoy the element of surprise. But not you, and not now. Suprise or no surprise, you're gonna kill this guy and you're gonna do it right now. He wants to hide from you using the force? Well, that'll work on you, but not on your tracking droids. we'll see how long he can keep that up. You stand right next to him, and send some tells to your buddies asking them to come out to you.

In the meantime, your cloaker has gotten bold. He's uncloaked a few times, hit you a bit, then KD'd you or rooted you and ran out to 25m to re-cloak. Its an annoyance more than anything. He's not killing you in these little outbursts, but you can't kill him, either. Even tho you realize now that he's a cloaked, you still haven't managed to root or snare or KD or daze or bleed (or whatever crowd control skill you have) to prevent him from doing this.

3-4 mins later, a couple of your buddies show up. You tell them to stay near you, and you start following your WP, and your cloaker is now losing force at a staggering rate. Using /channelForce to try and put his force back is ultimately useless. It would only delay the innevitable empty force bar for a few seconds, and it would mean that he'd have a 1000pt health pool when he did finally have to decloak. He now has only two real choices. He can try to run and hope his force bar holds up for the 2.5mins needed to erase the TEF and enter a house (with 3 player characters and their vehicles around, not likely), or else he can just uncloak and have it out with you now. You tell your buddies to put him on follow so that even if he KDs you, he stays within their range and can't recloak.

Thats it. This is pretty much a horrible set of circumstances and luck for you, and yet it still worked out fine. Why do I say that?

1) You were unable to gain a preparation advantage on your mark, since you didn't know he had cloak and thus couldn't prepare for it.
2) Your alpha strike failed to incap him.
3) Even after you realized he was a cloaker, you were unable to keep him from decloaking/recloaking at will.

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I TOTALLY AGREE! This is the way to handle things....now all I need are some friends that STILL play this game. I'll tell you this much...another BH and I stood next to the Jedi, with 2 droids out (do they still cost force?) and the Jedi never "broke a sweat". So what's the Force cost per player with in a 25m radius?

Bottom line, it doesn't matter if I'm wrong or right about the Cloak ability, things will stay the way they are no matter how much I (we) type about it. I just feel that something like Cloak should have a "negative incentive" for it's use (or more so then it currently is set). As a BH - Jedi fight is 1 vs 1, I shouldn't have to bring an entourage in case the Jedi is a "cloaker".

So be it, so it ends with me.

Regenerating force (if regen is > current use) I have no problem with. I don't have a problem with FR'ing while cloaked. I pretty much don't care about what people do cloaked, as long as it's only with themselves (i.e. turn on FR, et al). I care if someone else is exploiting to get a Buff. Conversely two wrongs do not make a right. If you exploit to get the exploiter, you drop yourself to their level. If they exploit, the player account should be permanently banned. If you exploit, well tough cookies, you should get banned too.

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Tucheck wrote:

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EvilAztec wrote:

1. Cloak is a non-targetable state... so anyone should be prohibited from targeting, that includes buffers


2. Sorry charlie, but cloak is a viable skill, perhaps you'd like to give up roots/dazes/mezzes. This is my counter to those.


3. Thanks for taking a stand against the ridiculous Tanks.
   

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I'm NOT saying Cloak should not be used....I'm saying it is being abused IF and when a Jedi regens Force or recieves a buff WHILE cloaked. We agree on that I see, so why is it ridiculous to ask for this to be fixed (if possible)? I'll say THIS much...I'll just create a little macro and name it "66". If I see a Jedi getting buffed or regen'ing force while cloaked....I'll just have to apply a few DOTs to "counter it". That's fair...right?

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To be honest, I don't really know the hard numbers on what cloak costs in force with and without people around. But I can tell you my personal "feel" experiences. I am a full template single mastery Jedi (221k) with a build that gives nearly the max possible force pool/regen for a non double mastery. Also, I always fight with my paddy robes on (don't have enough tapes or cool modded clothing that makes it wiser not to wear my robe), so I get a slight boost in force pool and regen.

Cloaked with no one around, my force regens faster than than cloak eats it.
Cloaked with one person around, my force regen is pretty much at break-even. It might regen a tad faster than the drain, but not enough to notice.
Cloaked with two people around, I am losing force slowly. I can channel occasionally to offset it, at the expense of having a lowered health bar.
Cloaked with more than two around, I am losing force steadily and at a good rate, and channel will only prolong an empty force bar for a while, but not avoid it.

As for whether vehicles and droids and pets still "count" for cloak, I'm not positive since the latest pub since I haven't really tested extensively. The only thing I can say for sure is that vehicles/pets/droids still prevent me from cloaking if they are within 20m (tried that a couple days ago).

Message Edited by FernGully on 07-26-2005 04:57 PM

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Tucheck wrote:

I TOTALLY AGREE! This is the way to handle things....now all I need are some friends that STILL play this game. I'll tell you this much...another BH and I stood next to the Jedi, with 2 droids out (do they still cost force?) and the Jedi never "broke a sweat". So what's the Force cost per player with in a 25m radius?

Bottom line, it doesn't matter if I'm wrong or right about the Cloak ability, things will stay the way they are no matter how much I (we) type about it. I just feel that something like Cloak should have a "negative incentive" for it's use (or more so then it currently is set). As a BH - Jedi fight is 1 vs 1, I shouldn't have to bring an entourage in case the Jedi is a "cloaker".

So be it, so it ends with me.

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*cut out some of the quoted for space*

I'd be hesitant to believe the "never broke a sweat" comment if it came from a bounty mark. If it came from a controlled test with a Jedi buddy, well, thats another story. But its not unlikely (or unwise ) for a Jedi to tell you "Oh no, that didn't hurt me at all!", especially if it really DID hurt

As for the negative incentive part, and you feeling like there isn't enough consequence to using cloak, well, I dunno what to tell you. I have cloak, and I use it as much as I possibly can, but there are many times when I simply can't use it. The force costs stings in lots of situations. In the end, it comes down to "feel". Have you used it before?

It should be pretty obvious from my above posts, but I'd expect the paddy who picks up cloak first in their template-building will be in for quite a rude awakening if they intended cloak to be as effective for them as it is for someone like me. With a low force regen, I'm quite confident that cloak would chew through a low-mid level paddy's small force bar very fast, especially with multiple people around. At most, it would buy em a head start on a chase from a BH.

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rYsyn wrote:

So, as I understand it, there are 2 issues

• BH / Jedi TEF appling to Buffs (While in combat and this my not even be the issue) This is not an issue as the Jedi can wait out the 2.5 min TEF while cloaked.


• Medic's ability to target Jedi when they are clocked Actually, this is a Jedi issue that has been already reported to the devs as they are also getting attacked by CMs while being cloaked. If the devs FIX this issue, then the buff issue will be fixed as well.

Is that it or am I missing something?

Message Edited by rYsyn on 07-26-2005 12:37 PM

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woops... wrong reply. Sorry =)

Message Edited by Grimjakk on 07-26-2005 12:18 PM

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Tanks wrote:

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rYsyn wrote:

So, as I understand it, there are 2 issues

• BH / Jedi TEF appling to Buffs (While in combat and this my not even be the issue) This is not an issue as the Jedi can wait out the 2.5 min TEF while cloaked.


• Medic's ability to target Jedi when they are clocked Actually, this is a Jedi issue that has been already reported to the devs as they are also getting attacked by CMs while being cloaked. If the devs FIX this issue, then the buff issue will be fixed as well.

Is that it or am I missing something?

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Tucheck wrote:


It's not very hard for an unsuspecting Jedi (the perfect BH target) to perform a KD and get 20m out to cloak, then wait for the TEF to expire...rinse and repeat.

It's the ultimate "time out"

Someone just tell me how using Cloak like this is any different then the broken house TEFs we JUST recieved a fix for and I'll re-think my opinion.

Both could not be attacked when less then 25m away (I stand at the door..lol), both could get buffed, both can regen force. And it's not even a Master ability.....now tell me how they are different, please.

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Message Edited by rYsyn on 07-26-2005 03:54 PM