Bounty Hunter Archive
Thread: An in-depth weapon comparison (New! Improved! Now with 87% fewer flawed assumptions!)
This is an assumption. But from the damage I watch in combat spam without VK's it seems to be that the damage mod represents the max damage rating. So a TKM with +185 would get 185*1.5=277.5 as max damage. That sounds to low though. It sound more like the average damage as I see floatynumbers near the 350 coming from a TKM I've watched.
Can't say anything for sure, I may do some fiddling and see tonight.
After looking through the carbineer skill boxes a little more thoroughly, I think this may be a rather moot point. At master carbineer (even with the +5 bonus at master marksman), you're only at +75 to speed, which is just barely enough to hit the speed cap with a laser carbine.
Of course, even though carbineers can get 6 skill boxes with bonuses to weapon speed, it amounts to only +45 to speed while a bounty hunter can earn +50 on just 4 skill boxes (not to mention that they get bonuses to accuracy, as well). I don't mean to complain, but wouldn't one expect a carbineer, someone that does nothing but use a carbine, to be better with one than a bounty hunter, who uses all sorts of different weapons?
If you were a bounty hunter with carbine specialization, though, you could potentially reach a speed bonus that is well above the speed cap limit so, in that situation, perhaps my question still applies.
All I can say is WOW, greatjob in putting this formula together. This is a really helpful tool.
The added benefit of finding these regression equations is that weaponsmiths would be able to find the proper "balancing" of experimentation for a particular weapon. Weaponsmiths could also then say to the customer "Would you like a weapon for your current skill or for your future skill?" to take in speed/accuracy/specials modifiers. Also "In what way do you expect you would use this weapon? Autofire? Special shots?"
Do you think at all about Point Blank/Ideal/Max Ranges and their modifiers when evaluating weapons? Should you? Why or why not?
mcglonec wrote:
I have a question regarding the speed cap. As you stated, there is a level at which your speed bonuses due to weapon specialization cause you to hit the speed cap and you can not fire your weapon any faster. However, how does this relate to special attacks with that weapon and the speed penalties they incur?
The speed penalties for the various specials are all multipliers. If you can find a website that lists the stats for the specials (and there are a few of them out there, though I dunno how updated they are), you'll see them list a Damage modifier, a HAM modifier, and a Speed modifier.
For example, Headshot 2 for Riflemen has the following mods (and I'm going from memory here, so this might actually be incorrect):
Damage Mod: 2.5x
HAM Mod: 1.5x
Speed Mod: 2.0x
The Speed Mod is what we're interested in.
Your Actual Firing Rate for auto-fire is:
(Base Weapon Speed) * [1 - (Weapon Speed Skill/100)]
To find the Actual Firing Rate for a particular special, just multiply that whole thing by the Speed Mod for the special.
So, for example, I am a 2/1/1/1 Rifleman, so my Rifle Speed is +40. Using my T21 (Speed 7.2) to fire Headshot 2 would give me a firing rate of:
(2.0) * (7.2) * [1 - (0.40)] = 8.6
So yes, there is still a purpose for low-speed weapons even after they've hit the cap. They may be capped for auto-fire speed, but they may still have some room to go for the specials.
Burnham wrote:
Very nice work. Maybe you can help me with some calculations I'm working on to remove the issue of resource quality/experimentation that interferes with the above equations. My theory is that we can normalize the stats on all weapons across all servers by using linear regression fitting. Essentially, you make a weapon and record each of the attribute percentages (from 0 - 100 %) and then plot these versus the weapon's actual stats. make several weapons out of different materials/experimentation to obtain a data set. Then fit the stats vs percentages using a linear regression (if it's linear). Then you can take any two weapons and say that if the weaponsmith made both with the same final percentages, you will have the stats for two different weapons of exactly the same QUALITY. In this method, the components do not cause problems as they can only improve/damage the final percentages (excluding Krayt tissue, etc). It also normalizes across all servers and all weaponsmiths by removing the resource factor.
The added benefit of finding these regression equations is that weaponsmiths would be able to find the proper "balancing" of experimentation for a particular weapon. Weaponsmiths could also then say to the customer "Would you like a weapon for your current skill or for your future skill?" to take in speed/accuracy/specials modifiers. Also "In what way do you expect you would use this weapon? Autofire? Special shots?"
I'm geeky enough to think this would be an interesting set of data to play with, but you'd need a LOT of datapoints to have anything even vaguely worthwhile.
The chief use I can see for it would be for weaponsmiths to gauge their products. If X is the baseline stats for a particular weapon, and you just cranked out a weapon of that type with stats that are all 1.3x, well you made an above average weapon.
mcglonec wrote:
For any of you that want to lobby for improving Elite Carbine to be a real improvement over Laser Carbine - here's your post. It's all there in black and white (well, there were plenty of other colors, as well). But, as the breakdown shows, the Laser Carbine is superior to the Elite Carbine in pretty much every way possible. Seems silly, doesn't it?
Just as an FYI...
Making the Elite Carbine be Medium AP instead of Light AP would give that particular Elite Carbine identical Effectiveness Ratings and Volsted Ratings to the Laser Carbine.
That would definitely be the change I'd lobby for if I were a Carbineer.
>>Base Damage: The damage that appears in your "Battlespam" (i.e. the text which shows up in your Combat window). The minimum amount of Base Damage you can do with autofire will be the minimum damage rating of your weapon multiplied by 1.5. The maximum amount of Base Damage you can do with autofire will be the maximum damage rating of your weapon multiplied by 1.5. So if you have a weapon with a damage rating of 100-200, your base damage will range from (100 * 1.5) to (200 * 1.5), or 150-300.
Hmm ... where does the 1.5 come from?
Why is base damage 150-300? Would not using a straight average of 150 be more accurate? seeing as you use the *equall* distribution method futher below in your argument.
Also ... consider the *speed* factors ... have you thought about giving a gun a *rating* based upon the users speed?
ie: if my speed for a pistol is +50 ... should I not be able to take one of your numbers and times it by 50 to come up with *my* damage for each weapon? You have the *cap* on there, (providing the weapon is not sliced) ...
Just some thoughts of how to make the formula's a little more useful ... a way for a person to take *their* speed and find out which weapon deals the most damage.
As Volsted said, these are effectiveness ratings asuming noone has hit the speed cap. However, at master level, almost every weapon will be at speed cap except the power hammer and LVA (long vibroaxe). Also, TKAs get a +98 unarmed damage, and I assume that means their damage is almost doubled. These calculatins used effectiveness rating provided by Volsted, and were not calculated from scratch. So these numbers are subject to rounding error.Here are the effectiveness ratings of each weapon listed here wielded by a master of that profession without brawler master and multiplying vibro knuckler effectiveness by 1.98 due to unarmed damage bonus:
Unarmed
Vibroknucklers; 29-130 Damage; 2.2 Speed; 37-54-37 HAM; AP: Light
Effectiveness Rating: 67.8 / 295.3 for master with damage bonus
Volsted Rating: 1.8/1.3/1.8
Hits Speed Cap at: +55
One-handed
Advanced Gaderiffi Baton; 128-218 Damage; 3.7 Speed; 59-36-17 HAM; AP: None
Effectiveness Rating: 70.1 / 259.4 for master
Volsted Rating: 1.2/1.9/4.1
Hits Speed Cap at: +73
Advanced Curved Sword; 74-171 Damage; 2.2 Speed; 26-50-34 HAM; AP: None
Effectiveness Rating: 83.5 / 183.7 for master
Volsted Rating: 3.2/1.7/2.5
Hits Speed Cap at: +55
Vibroblade; 36-132 Damage; 2.5 Speed; 16-28-16 HAM; AP: Light
Effectiveness Rating: 63.0 / 157.5 for master
Volsted Rating: 3.9/2.3/3.9
Hits Speed Cap at: +60
Advanced Rykk Blade; 75-174 Damage; 2.4 Speed; 49-39-34 HAM; AP: None
Effectiveness Rating: 77.8 / 186.7 for master
Volsted Rating: 1.6/2.0/2.3
Hits Speed Cap at: +59
Advanced Stun Baton; 86-129 Damage; 2.6 Speed; 18-49-42 HAM; AP: None
Effectiveness Rating: 62.0 / 161.2 for master
Volsted Rating: 3.4/1.3/1.5
Hits Speed Cap at: +62
Two-handed
Advanced Two-Handed Curved Sword; 62-250 Damage; 2.5 Speed; 29-62-34 HAM; AP: Medium
Effectiveness Rating: 146.3 / 365.75 for master
Volsted Rating: 5.0/2.4/4.3
Hits Speed Cap at: +60
Advanced Two-Handed Cleaver; 102-220 Damage; 3.4 Speed; 50-47-29 HAM; AP: Medium
Effectiveness Rating: 111.0 / 377.4 for master
Volsted Rating: 2.2/2.4/3.8
Hits Speed Cap at: +71
Advanced Power Hammer; 133-453 Damage; 5.4 Speed; 114-35-23 HAM; AP: Medium
Effectiveness Rating: 127.2 / 434.7 for master (not at speed cap, speed = 1.35)
Volsted Rating: 1.1/3.6/5.5
Hits Speed Cap at: +82
Polearms
Long Vibro-Axe; 100-356 Damage; 4.4 Speed; 85-69-31 HAM; AP: Medium
Effectiveness Rating: 121.4 / 485.6 for master (not at speed cap, speed = 1.1)
Volsted Rating: 1.4/1.7/3.9
Hits Speed Cap at: +78
Vibro Lance; 88-284 Damage; 3.9 Speed; 58-80-31 HAM; AP: Light
Effectiveness Rating: 89.4 / 348.7 for master
Volsted Rating: 1.5/1.1/2.9
Hits Speed Cap at: +75
This assumes perfect accuracy of course, so the very high effectiveness of the pikemen weapons is misleading. If the LVA could hit something, it would be amazing.Other melee classes seem to hit just fine. If it wasn't for the Gaderiffi Baton, fencer weapons would be generally half as effective as the other melee classes at master.
Volsted,
Great info. I'm curious as to where you get the inital 1.5 multiplier on all base weapon damage, I'd not heard that before. Also, I'd love for you to visit my thread on polearm DPS calculations and add your comments. here's the link:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=pikeman&message.id=4867
For polearm, there are big accuracy differences between the LVA and VL. It's covered in my post, but bottom line is that the VL damage output seems to be higher over the course of a battle because you land more hits. It is my default weapon unless the target is resistant to electricity.