Bounty Hunter Archive

I definitely look for higher Ideal range accuracy, which mostly means that adding a scope to a weapon makes it better.

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Hero_DarkJedi wrote:
Hmm ... where does the 1.5 come from?

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Two ways to answer this question:

1) It comes from the Devs, who put it in there for reasons which currently elude me.
2) It comes from experimental testing.

I have an 85-190 Krayt E11. I use it to plink bunnies when I go hunting for Wooly Hide. I only use it in auto-fire mode. I've collected nearly 1000 datapoints so far, and it has never hit for less than 127, nor any more than 285.

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Hero_DarkJedi wrote:
Also ... consider the *speed* factors ... have you thought about giving a gun a *rating* based upon the users speed?

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No, because that was beyond the scope of what I was attempting to do.

However, it's easy enough to calculate. If you want to correct the Effectiveness Rating based on the your Weapon Speed skill, simply divide the base Effectiveness Rating by [1 - (Weapon Speed Skill)/100].

Great work! I wonder if there is any benifit to adding range mods to the discussion? I have always wondered what the 'cap' is on the to hit bonus, if any.

Cul

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jeffinthebox wrote:
I'm curious as to where you get the inital 1.5 multiplier on all base weapon damage, I'd not heard that before.

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Well, I'd seen it mentioned by other people in other posts, so I tested it experimentally. I have a Krayt E11 Rifle with damage stats of 85-190. I have been using it in auto-fire mode exclusively when attacking bunnies for wooly hide harvesting, and I have nearly 1000 datapoints. And so far it has never hit for less than 127 points of base damage, nor for more than 285 points of base damage.

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jeffinthebox wrote:
Also, I'd love for you to visit my thread on polearm DPS calculations and add your comments. here's the link:

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=pikeman&message.id=4867

For polearm, there are big accuracy differences between the LVA and VL. It's covered in my post, but bottom line is that the VL damage output seems to be higher over the course of a battle because you land more hits. It is my default weapon unless the target is resistant to electricity.

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I'll certainly take a look.

As Volsted said, these are effectiveness ratings asuming noone has hit the speed cap. However, at master level, almost every weapon will be at speed cap except the commando weapons (flamethrower and launcher pistol) andcarbines. These calculatins used effectiveness rating provided by Volsted, and were not calculated from scratch. So these numbers are subject to rounding error.Here are the effectiveness ratings of each weapon listed here wielded by a master of that profession without master marksmen (exceptfor BH and Commando of course):

Pistols

Scout Blaster; 60-122 Damage; 1.7 Speed; 11-22-11 HAM; AP: None
Effectiveness Rating: 80.3 / 136.5 for master pistoleer
Volsted Rating: 7.3/3.6/7.3
Hits Speed Cap at: +42


Advanced Scout Blaster; 74-145 Damage; 2.0 Speed; 11-22-11 HAM; AP: None
Effectiveness Rating: 82.1 / 164.2 for master pistoleer
Volsted Rating: 7.5/3.7/7.5
Hits Speed Cap at: +50


Advanced Power5 Pistol; 59-182 Damage; 2.8 Speed; 16-39-15 HAM; AP: None
Effectiveness Rating: 64.6 / 180.9 for master pistoleer
Volsted Rating: 4.0/1.7/4.3
Hits Speed Cap at: +65


Advanced FWG5 Pistol; 50-193 Damage; 2.2 Speed; 11-36-18 HAM; AP: None
Effectiveness Rating: 82.8 / 182.2 for master pistoleer
Volsted Rating: 7.5/2.3/4.6
Hits Speed Cap at: +55


Advanced Tangle Pistol; 44-101 Damage; 3.4 Speed; 14-29-23 HAM; AP: None
Effectiveness Rating: 40.0 / 136 for master pistoleer
Volsted Rating: 2.3/1.1/1.4
Hits Speed Cap at: +71


DX2 Pistol; 82-129 Damage; 2.4 Speed; 22-40-14 HAM; AP: Light
Effectiveness Rating: 82.4 / 197.8 for master pistoleer
Volsted Rating: 3.7/2.1/5.9
Hits Speed Cap at: +59


Advanced Launcher Pistol; 65-235 Damage; 2.5 Speed; 17-51-17 HAM; AP: None
Effectiveness Rating: 90.0 / 128.6 for master commando (+30 pistol speed, 1.75 speed)
Volsted Rating: 5.3/1.8/5.3
Hits Speed Cap at: +60


Advanced Scatter Pistol; 114-182 Damage; 2.1 Speed; 17-51-18 HAM; AP: Light
Effectiveness Rating: 132.1 / 277.4 for master bounty hunter
Volsted Rating: 7.8/2.6/7.3
Hits Speed Cap at: +53



Carbines

DH-17 Short Carbine; 60-150 Damage; 2.8 Speed; 25-27-14 HAM; AP: None
Effectiveness Rating: 56.3 / 140.8 for master carbineer (1.12 speed)
Volsted Rating: 2.3/2.1/4.0
Hits Speed Cap at: +65


E11 Carbine; 60-127 Damage; 2.6 Speed; 29-36-17 HAM; AP: Light
Effectiveness Rating: 67.4 / 168.5 for master carbineer (1.04 speed)
Volsted Rating: 2.3/1.9/4.0
Hits Speed Cap at: +62


Advanced Laser Carbine; 38-264 Damage; 3.7 Speed; 28-45-22 HAM; AP: Medium
Effectiveness Rating: 95.7 / 239.3 for master carbineer (1.48 speed)
Volsted Rating: 3.4/2.1/4.3
Hits Speed Cap at: +73


Advanced EE3 Carbine; 80-186 Damage; 2.9 Speed; 38-32-17 HAM; AP: None
Effectiveness Rating: 68.8 / 172 for master carbineer (1.16 speed)
Volsted Rating: 1.8/2.1/4.0
Hits Speed Cap at: +66


DXR6 Carbine; 97-149 Damage; 3.9 Speed; 27-48-20 HAM; AP: Light
Effectiveness Rating: 59.1 / 147.8 for master carbineer (1.56 speed)
Volsted Rating: 2.2/1.2/3.0
Hits Speed Cap at: +75


Advanced Elite Carbine; 104-182 Damage; 3.5 Speed; 28-45-22 HAM; AP: Light
Effectiveness Rating: 76.6 / 191.5 for master carbineer (1.40 speed)
Volsted Rating: 2.7/1.7/3.5
Hits Speed Cap at: +72



Rifles

Laser Rifle; 29-376 Damage; 5.7 Speed; 14-22-59 HAM; AP: Medium
Effectiveness Rating: 83.3 / 474.8 for master rifleman
Volsted Rating: 5.9/3.8/1.4
Hits Speed Cap at: +83


SG-82 Rifle; 104-166 Damage; 5.6 Speed; 25-22-42 HAM; AP: None
Effectiveness Rating: 36.2 / 202.7 for master rifleman
Volsted Rating: 1.4/1.6/0.9
Hits Speed Cap at: +83


Advanced E11 Rifle; 91-174 Damage; 4.7 Speed; 13-23-36 HAM; AP: Medium
Effectiveness Rating: 66.1 / 310.7 for master rifleman
Volsted Rating: 5.5/2.9/1.8
Hits Speed Cap at: +79


Jawa Ion Rifle; 100-181 Damage; 6.2 Speed; 14-29-46 HAM; AP: Light
Effectiveness Rating: 42.5 / 263.5 for master rifleman
Volsted Rating: 3.0/1.5/0.9
Hits Speed Cap at: +84


T21 Rifle; 118-333 Damage; 7.2 Speed; 40-33-75 HAM; AP: Heavy
Effectiveness Rating: 91.8 / 661 for master rifleman
Volsted Rating: 2.3/2.8/1.2
Hits Speed Cap at: +87



Heavy Weapons

Flamethrower; 422-810 Damage; 4.7 Speed; 75-17-17 HAM; AP: None
Effectiveness Rating: 196.6 / 357.5 for master commando ( +45 FT speed, 2.585 speed)
Volsted Rating: 2.6/11.6/11.6
Hits Speed Cap at: N/A (so far as I'm aware)

This assumes perfect accuracy of course and regular attacks, so theeffectiveness of thecommando weapons is misleading since they miss a lot. Also, spamming specials, the pistoleer attacks will still be at speed cap, so the effectiveness will be very high. Rifleman won't be at cap, but will still be very fast. Carbineers and commandos don't even hit cap with regular attacks, and will have spam specials slower. Carbineers and pistoleers are comparable with regular attacks, while riflemen have the advantage.

Nice math. Always glad to see someone intelligent on the boards.

I think for those who are wondering, at master rifleman, the only things you should care about are damage and mind cost. My slow laser rifle (with +98 total [with skill mods] to speed) shoots once per second, as does my spraystick.

The DPS, however, is significantly in favor of the laser rifle (around 2500 damage per second with SS2,about 1000 more than with the spraystick). So for those of you who are masters, realize that extremely different calculations come into play.

I'll start off by saying great and informative post.

I thought I would add one or two things though if you don't mind... (NOTE: I am not quite as good as you with the colors, but I will try)

First off, every special attack has a speed multiplier which it applies to the attack. This means that although a T21 hits it's speed cap at +85 speed (or whatever it was) if you do a special with your T21 it doesn't reach it's speed cap (with that special) until much later (with a limit of +100 speed of course).

Here are a coulpe specials and the damage/speed gain they offer:
Head Shot 2 =x1.75 speed and x2.5 damage
Head shot 1 =x1.5 speed and x1.5 damage

I haven't gotten around to getting the data for any others, but as you can see, Head Shot 2 has a speed multiplier of 1.75. This means that if you are firing Head Shot 2s with your T21 (7.5 speed) and you are at +90 speed (which would normally cap your T21) then you are actually firing at a rate of 1.3125 shots / second (7.5 * 0.1 * 1.75). This is still pretty fast, but Head Shot 3, Strafe Shot, and Mind Shot have an even larger delay and you will need either Master Marksman or some skill enhancers.

Also, high AP weapons go through low resistant armor. So an AP:2 weapon will not have it's damage reduced when it hits something with AR:1 and 15% resistance. But a weapon with AP:1 would suffer from the 15% reduction in damage. I know that once you get to 20% resistance, higher AP weapons start to suffer from reduction, and at 44% they suffer full reduction. I don't know what any numbers are between those however as I don't have armor with all the numbers inbetween to test with (21%-43%).

I do have one question for you. What exactly is the Volsted Rating supposed to mean and/or tell me? As far as I can tell the calculation is arbitrary. HAM costs are negated at 1558 strength/quickness/focus and they are reduced linearly as they approach this number so I can not see how you can hope to make a generic rating that will determine how effective a gun is compared to another based on HAM costs (someone with low secondaries would suffer way more than someone with high secondaries). Please let me know what I am missing as I am very interested.

-Micah

Looking back, it would have to be closer to 70-110 for TKA. 450-600 damage is too high for unarmed TKM, I was thinking with Vibroknucklers. 70-110 would be about right I think.

Thanks for putting up this information. I've taken the liberty to incorporate this information into an excel worksheet. It's pretty simple to use. You first go to the character skill mods tab and put your own combat skill mods values then go to the weapons tab and change the values of my weapons to match the values of your own weapons. Make sure you keep the different type of weapons in there own area, i.e. pistols under the pistol area. This is necessary because it does a check on your skill mods. The results tab show the effectiveness from generic and AR0 thru AR3.

I believe I have all the formulas correct, but it would be good to get a few more eyes to double check. Anyways hope you find it useful. I may create a future version with a tab for specific mobs and have an additional results page where you select a specific mob from a drop down list and it will show you how effective each weapon is against it.

You will need excel to use this tool. If you don't have excel you can go to Microsoft's website and download a free viewer.

http://users.adelphia.net/~dmccollum/files/WeaponEffect.xls

I don't want to go around speaking for all the Teras Kasi Masters...but my UAH3 does hit for around 1700-1800 damage. The only time that it possibly gets up over 3000 is when you hit a person with a rifle out, a person that is prone, or a person that is prone with a rifle out...all these things carry their own damage mods as far as I know.

I have taken Volsted's formulas and entered them into an interactive worksheet that you can use to compare weapons. http://rothwellhome.org/SWGWeaponEvaluator.htm

Hopefully it works for you (I used Excel to make it and don't usually publish interactive pages)

I might have missed something, but why does a VK with a rating just better then a stun batton waste a LVA with a rating about twice as high?

"(New! Improved! Now with 87% fewer assumptions!)"

Wow! That comes offmighty condescending and boastful. "Well, allow me to retort." (S.L.J. - P.F.) I'll break it down, but not too much becasue I have more pressing issues requiring my attention.

New!

No argument there. Pressing the "New Message" button usually ends up with something new.

Improved!

That's subject to opinion... and several flawed assumptions.

Now with 87% fewer assumptions!"

Really? You have to know I would take you up on that challenge. My list of assumptions:

1. I assumed people would attempt to get the best slice they could.


2. I assumed average weapon damage.


3. I assumed people might eventually fight opponents withall ranges of Armor.


4. I assumed re-examining myinitial collection of data twice was enough to preventa few miscopied numbers. (Even though I remedied this once found, this was still an initial assumption.)


5. I assumed people would use my post as a launching point for doing their own comparisons, not as a launching point for attack or ridicule.

Your list of assumptions (I won't paraphrase yours... just straight from the text):

1. ...and determine which one is better for a given situation.(You only presented numbers for 1 situation, so you assumed the weapons to be in this situation.)


2. This is convenient because, with an even distribution, you can easily find out your Average Base Damage Per Hit. (You assume average damage, just as I did.)


3. A weapon with a higher Effectiveness Rating will outperform a weapon with a lower Effectiveness Rating, provided: 1) The Armor Rating of the target critter is equal to or lower than the Armor Piercing Rating for both weapons. 2) The target critter is not vulnerable to the damage type of either weapon. 3) The Weapon Skill Speed is the same for both weapons.4) The 1.0 second speed cap is not in effect for either weapon. (Wow... 4 assumptions all right here together!)


4. The weapon with the higher Effectiveness Rating MAY continue to outperform the weapon with the lower Effectiveness Rating even if one or more of these conditions aren't met. But if all four conditions are met, then the weapon with the higher Effectiveness Rating will always be the superior weapon. (So the numbers assume that all 4 previous assumptions take place. Nested assuming?)


5. I have taken the stock list of one of the Weaponsmiths on my server. (You areassuming that the weapons on this smith's vendor were all made without bias, and were all made off equally viable resources.)


6. I may even (despite the claim of the thread subject) have made some fundamentally flawed assumptions. I don't think I have (Thinking you have not made some fundamental flaws was an assumption... because you did.)


7. But the math is valid, assuming the speed formula I saw was correct. (Tsk tsk... you assumed rather than verify?)


8. Additionally, all of the calculations in this post are made with one fundamental assumption in mind: That Melee weapons work like Ranged weapons with it comes to things like the 1.0 second speed cap, damage distributions, the 1.5x modifier for Base Damage, etc. But I don't play a melee class, so I don't know if these assumptions are true, or if they're baseless. (Another assumption without verification. The 1.5x modifier for Base damage that ranged have is not the same for melee. We do have a multiplier, but it isn't 1.5. However, since it's a multiplier, and modifies all melee weapons equally... it is an otiose factor.)


9. Unlisted assumption: Yourcalculations assume that no one uses sliced weapons.


10. Unlisted assumption: You assume all melee professions have no skills that alter the damage output of weapons, yet TKS gain an additional +185% to their weapon damage (nearly trippling their damage)that other melee professions do not get.

So I made 5 assumptions, and you made (can it be?) 10 assumptions! If you take each assumption in #3 as an individual assumption then you made 13 assumptions. That means you made (5/(13-5)*100) =

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*** 62.5% MORE assumptions***

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That aside, if your intent was truely to help out the Fencers here, then we all appreciate the effort this took to present. We always welcome input from other professions when posted out of a genuine interest in being helpful. For future reference, all you need to do is post your findings; there is no need to try and belittle others in the attempt. It usually doesn't get you the results you're looking for. Regardless of the practices you might see elsewhere, it just doesn't work that way on the Fencer board. We tend to be respectful, professional, and polite of each other here... even when we disagree.If your subject line read "Another view on weapon comparison", my response would have been more along the lines of: "Wow! Very thoughtful of you topresent this information here. You might want to recheck a few numbers, but this shows great effort and thoughtfulness. Thank you."

~Lyahpar~

La Femme Fencer

"Thrust if you love Fencers!"