Bounty Hunter Archive

That was a very good -but very long - post. I think what you're trying to say is there is no reason for a BH vs. Jedi war. I agree.

However, there still is a "Jedi problem". For some of us, we want a "world" where RPG makes sense. I don't have to RP all the time, but to be in the world where RP rules the facts of the game makes it so much more interesting - a set storyline in which you play, not some storyline that can change drastically with what some call to be a "marketing decision".

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Giles025 wrote:

However, there still is a "Jedi problem". For some of us, we want a "world" where RPG makes sense. I don't have to RP all the time, but to be in the world where RP rules the facts of the game makes it so much more interesting - a set storyline in which you play, not some storyline that can change drastically with what some call to be a "marketing decision".

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TheMadCoder wrote:

I have never said that responding to a market is bad. Jedi and Firesprays are here because people watching the PT are more familiar with them than some of us over 30. I've already listed the problems:

*Jedi in this game are not canon. Many play this game for canon.

*Jedi (trees, branches, professions, or however you want to argue it) are much more powerful than any non-Jedi profession. Yes, there are broken parts with Jedi, but less-so than just about any other profession in the game.

*I'm a firm believer that arguing on the Internet is like running in the Special Olympics - even if you win, you're still retarded (I thank the crude Internet for that one.) If you want my side of the story, please look here:

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=bounty_hunter&message.id=481594#M481594

I've answered every question you've posed to me, but you keep saying "what's wrong with it?" I've told you. You don't have to repeat yourself. We know your opinion. We've heard it. Some ofus don't like it - that's our opinion. You either have to deal with that, ignore us, or don't post. I don't care what you do, but stop talking in circles - it gets us nowhere but a higher post count.

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ProzacRefugee wrote:

You have a nice line of argument, but you fail to see the value of variety, something that used to be one of the great features of the game. Because there is no realregression in skills or level once a player is alpha they remain alpha. The result is a net increase in the amount of alpha players. The reason this is termed 'the jedi problem' is there is only ONE avenue of 'alphaness' - jedi. I have no problem with people being rewarded for work - I have a problem with a mechanic that creates thousands of clones out of what used to be a rich and diverse game. As the jedi continue to grow in population (there is no check on their population now) not only will they effect the combat classes who enjoy PvP, but the rest of the server as well. Armorsmiths will go out of business (jedi don't use armor, noobs don't have money for good armor), for example. Weaponsmiths soon follow.

An unbalance will wreck the entire balance of the game given enough time. Through no fault of the players behind them jedi are becoming a cancer upon the game due solely to their high numbers. And these high numbers exist only because (a) they are the sole alpha class and (b) they cannot be destroyed. Thus why the elimination of perma-death was such a mistake, it provided a method to balance the population entering jedi with a way to make characters leave it. Instead we now have only a population increase, and the only decrease is due to boredom. A nasty side result of that is that the players most likely to keep their jedi active are those who only want them for their uberness - in other words the LAST people who should be trusted with that power. But I digress.

Jedi effectnot only high end PvP, but also the economy as well.A perfect example is krayts - currently the ancients are camped by mainly jedilooking for pearls. Because of this groups without many jedi cannot hope to get the kill credit (not enough damage over the long term). So now the high end items that krayts provide like tissues are only in the hands of jedi. This provides further impetous for others to become jedi, as more and more content is locked out for the non-jedi.

Either other alpha classes need to be introduced to balance the jedi (BH are NOT alpha), or the jedi need to have their population limited. Otherwise there will be nothing but jedi.

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Daeges wrote:

I have posted this here because this seems to be the place where much of those who advance the cause of the "jedi problem" congregate.

I would like to take a moment and delve into the logic of those who bemoan the existence of jedi or their population. I do not share that view, and struggle to rationalize it beyond emotional positions. From my perspective, I group the objections in variations or combinations of what follows:

“There should be no jedi for player characters.” - this position seems to fall into two broad categories:

“Jedi should be rare and/or exhibit certain characteristics, and permitting players to assume these roles would violate one or both of these.” – This is the mantra of the fan of the movies who view jedi as the principle characters of an epic struggle, and therefore jedi need to be defined much as they were in the films. However, this is a massively multiplayer online role playing game (MMORPG), where there are no central characters and you can not easily compel players to play their characters in any particular way. As a result, people holding this view conclude that jedi should be the purview of non-player characters.

I take exception to the premise that forms these conclusions. If it was to be that our circumstances are to mirror those of the movies, it removes much of the purpose of us playing our characters. If one can not influence the course of events of the environment in any meaningful way, what is the motive of playing? If the outcome is preordained, why not skip ahead to the conclusion, blow up the Death Star, kill the emperor, and proclaim Luke the hero of the day. Indeed, why not just shut off the computer and fire up the DVD player?

Clearly there can not be 10,000 Lukes running around SWG at the center of the plot, each independently controlling their own destiny. However, one of the defining characteristics of a MMORPG is that there is no central character nor preordained conclusion, and to lesser or greater extents, each player changes the world. By building a world with the factions and environment based upon a milieu, but leaving the course of events as an open question, those of us playing are empowered to feel ownership, and this is the attraction of this kind of game over a single player offering.

Lucas tells the tale of a few characters in an epic struggle, and heightens the drama by setting into motion of course of events whereby the choices of a very select few will impact the entire galaxy. It is seemingly always the last of the jedi fighting the last of the sith, the only surviving X-wing with its last torpedo, etc… This makes for good movie drama, but is not reasonable for a community of thousands each wanting to feel some level of ownership.

For this reason in SWG the force is not the exclusive domain of a nearly extinct sect, and exploration of other Star Wars books validates this. Since the force is everywhere, it is only reasonable that there are other factions aside from the jedi and sith who have learned to harness it, as witnessed the Nightsisters on Dathomir. It might be more appropriate terminology to call the characters “force wielders” rather than “jedi”, a term referring to a rank of a particular faction, but it does not alter the premise that if such power exists everywhere, more than just a handful of users will materialize.

While those of us who are fans of the movies are drawn to this game for our love of the characters and the dramas they faced, its plot limitations can not form the basis of a MMORPG that will attract and retain people wanting to make their own way in such a world. While our stories share some similar setting characteristics to those in the movies, our destinies lie along a different path.

“Jedi are too powerful, too unbalancing to the game” is the other common objection to the existence of jedi player characters. This objection is centered upon the game mechanics and the question of “fairness”. Fair, as they say, is a four letter word, but let’s delve into the logic of this objection. In order to make the assertion, one has to operate from the premise that all things should be equal, a socialized perspective of the game. While nobody can argue that fairness in terms of a game’s mechanics is a necessary component to prevent alienation of those treated “unfairly”, the difference of opinion is how to define “fair.”

Should all characters have equal power? If so, then you have removed many of the motives for the game. Why accumulate wealth or experience? If you are guaranteed to have equal power, what good are such things? And if you need not accumulate wealth or experience to have equal power, then you have removed the underpinnings of the economy and the reason for many of the quests. Your guaranteed equal power would give you all you need to do anything in the game, leaving only the thinnest shell of plot and prestige as motives. The game at that point may as well be a first person shooter or single player fantasy game.

MMORPGs give you a sense of entitlement based upon effort. The experience you earn and the wealth you amass give you leverage to improve yourself, thus opening even more avenues to explore. The fairness offered is not one of power, but opportunity. That bears repeating. Fairness exists in SWG in that all players have equal opportunity to achieve. There are no doors that are closed, and everyone has the ability to do whatever anyone else may do provided they exert similar levels of effort. This is one of the main attractions of the MMORPG, and to try to change it would be ruinous.

When pressed, the pretext for this objection is often not that player’s characters should not vary in power, but usually that said power should never significantly exceed the person objecting. This centric view is hinged upon the somewhat hypocritical stance that those voicing the objection are certainly entitled to whatever advantages they currently hold as well earned, but those with more power somehow have not earned it, or at the very least, have the advantage of significantly more free time to invest in earning their reward.

This game is unique from other MMORPG’s in that it is not predicated on a table-top game like Dungeons and Dragons. You would not likely hear a “fairness” objection of a level 20 mage being more powerful than a level 7 mage. However, those making the jedi objection based upon the “balance” question seem to be trying to make such a claim, as few can rationally argue that jedi characters with more power then their conventional counterparts have not invested significantly more effort to earn their increased power. Just as a level 80 combat character non-jedi has powers that give him access to opportunities not yet available to a level 10 novice marksman, so too does jedi have advantages over others, and a knight beyond that.

If there are to be variances in power, then there are going to be those with significantly more power. Provided that there is opportunity for all to earn such powers, and that all levels of characters have material available to them to enjoy the game, then the position of unfairness is hard to defend.

The other group of those offering objection are those who acknowledge the availability of jedi characters to players, but object to how it is currently implemented, and often fall into categories similar to those above:

“There are too many jedi / it is too easy to become a jedi” – this objection draws upon the some of the same premises as the “Jedi should be rare” group above, but differ in that they wish to leave an avenue open for some select subset of players to be jedi. They cite many of the same specifics of the movie plot/timeline as the “Jedi should be rare” group, and therefore I’ll refer back to similar logic to refute it. The reason I put this group in separately is because it is worthwhile to explore how they come to a different conclusion than those advocating an outright prohibition.

The logic twist of leaving an avenue open but in some way making it more rare becomes more telling when you discover if they themselves are or wish to be a jedi. I liken this line of thinking to “the traffic problems in this area would be solved if everyone else would simply stay off the road so I can get to where I am going.” The allure of the prestige of being one of the few, or putting yourself in the hero or villains shoes, is very compelling.

But in a MMORPG, you have to consider that a community needs equal opportunity, and there are not very many attractive ways to ration the number of jedi that does not lead to inequality of opportunity. Also, you need to leave the goal in tact, even if some never can put in enough effort to attain it. Though many may not make the full journey, it may be rewarding enough for many to travel some of the road. Taking away the destination, or limiting it to some circumstance of luck, removes motive for many to keep striving forward.

The other reality that comes into play here is time. You can make the journey as long as you like, but as time goes on, more and more will reach the end. The number of characters attaining any level, including jedi, is going to grow with the passing of time, if only as a result of it being one of the last avenues for veteran players in which to invest. Any artificial limitations on the jedi population will have to account for the fact that with time more are going to qualify no matter how high you set the bar, and if there is to be relative rarity of jedi, something will have to artificially limit or systematically remove jedi. Such measure would also lead to inequality of opportunity.

An interesting counter-question to this objection is “how does this impact your ability to play your character? If you woke up tomorrow and the whole server was jedi except you, could you still go out and play?” The answer to such a question is really telling about the underlying objection. In terms of PVE, there is no impact of course, and the number and power of the NPC’s is constant. Indeed, if anything, this development would be beneficial, as anyone in your party would be very helpful in meeting your goals. In terms of PVP, there would be disadvantages in terms of opponents, and advantages in terms of allies. Then of course in JTL, there are no advantages to being a jedi. The honest answer to this is that the population of jedi, be it large or small, has little to do with the gaming experience except the emotional elements of status and ego. Pride aside, the rational arguments do not meet with the reality of the game.

“Jedis should not be more powerful than any other player.” This mirrors the pretext of the “jedis would be unbalancing” crowd, but differs in its conclusion, deciding instead of precluding them as a player character, simply make them equal to any other high level character. The logic behind this objection is a parallel to the one above, so again I’ll offer the same counter, but would like to explore the difference in conclusion.

This group is clearly on the bandwagon of there being a “jedi problem”, but is diametrically opposite of the movie purists in terms of the rarity of Jedi. For one would have to reasonably conclude that if a jedi is to be no more or less powerful than a master rifleman for instance, then there should be no different requirement in terms of attaining jedi than that of the any other master combat class. To that end, there would be as many jedi as there would any other class, more perhaps accounting for prestige.

Indeed, there would also have to be a serious redesign of the purpose of the bounty hunter, of which the primary game mechanic is to add some difficulty to the attainment of jedi. But if there is not going to be any more power to jedi, and therefore the road need not be any harder to get it, then there is no need for bounty hunters to hunt them. One has to muse about how many of the people holding this position are bounty hunters who have not thought their position all the way to its conclusion. I also ponder how many of the movie purists and nerf the jedi crowd know they are in the same “jedi problem” camp but wanting conclusions that are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Those are the main groups of objections I have witnessed to the so-called “jedi problem”. I understand them, and on some emotional levels even identify with a bit of the sentiment that is expressed within them. But rationally thinking about the overall welfare of the community, I do not subscribe to the premises that form those conclusions.

SWG is a MMORPG, and therefore can not parallel the “handful of heroes saving the galaxy opposed by a handful of ultra powerful villains” that forms plot line of the movies. Rather this game needs to offer its community equal opportunity to experience all levels of adventure, rewards supporting the level of effort, and the sense of ownership that being able to effect the environment in some meaningful way gives. By definition, this means that SWG will differ from the movies and single player adventure games with the small population character focus, and first person shooter games and its equality of power. There are games like Knights of the Old Republic and Star Wars Battlefront which offer those kinds of experiences set in the Star Wars milieu.

SWG is different. You can effect this world, even if only in a small way. There is no preordained conclusion. It is a community, and no one player or subset of players can nor should be the focus of the plot. You have equal opportunity to attain what others do, and your efforts are met with meaningful and lasting rewards, economically, politically, and in prowess. Jedi are a part of that formulation, and with good reason.

MMORPG are an incredible investment in time, and many of the frustrations in making that investment result in emotional rhetoric. I ask those of you who feel there is a Jedi problem to read this carefully what I have offered, and divorce the emotional arguments to distill the rational ones. Put aside your own current situation, and think about the thousands of other who have come to this game to experience their own brand of adventure, and the needs of the community as a whole. If you view this openly and fairly, you may come to understand the so-called “jedi problem” in a different way.

I myself have been playing this game just short of a year. When I learned what it took to become a jedi, then to amass any level of power with it, and the setbacks that bounty hunters give, I resigned very early on that I likely would never be a jedi. I knew that those who make it have either been at it for much longer than I or have much more free time to invest in the game. In either case, I don’t begrudge them for having something I don’t. Indeed, I have to give them some measure of respect for being so devoted and enduring what they had to do.

I took the time to write this because I have grown weary of thehyperbole and hatredwith only the thinnest of ration to them. We have to remember that this is not a contest, and there are no winners and no prizes. We have come together in a community to share a virtual experience in a setting we all find compelling, and that we all have much more in common than is different. With that in mind, I hope those who read here find moment to pause and reflect upon why we have gathered and our collective obligation to one another to foster our community.

Thank you for your attention.

-Daeges

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beautiful post

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Valid points, what is your solution? Other Alpha classes? Maybe that is in the works. It would be interesting to me if the force could be applied to all classes, and the FS skills touch mildly on that. A force wielding rifleman, whose anticipation and keens senses give him a powerful asset. As long as whatever it takes to achieve those things paralleled the level of effort to be a jedi, that seems appropriate.

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Message Edited by Thassk on 07-25-2005 11:26 AM

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Thassk wrote:

some people like me love jedi ... but i am such a fan of the movies i cant stand seeing jedi run all over the place acting nothing like they should, during a time period where they should be all but extinct ..

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Quiet420 wrote:

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Thassk wrote:

some people like me love jedi ... but i am such a fan of the movies i cant stand seeing jedi run all over the place acting nothing like they should, during a time period where they should be all but extinct ..

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The Lords of the Sith are not the only ones capable of calling upon the corrupting powers of the dark side of the Force, though they are by far the most dangerous Force-wielding foes of the Jedi. The blanket label "Dark Jedi" is often used to refer to non-Sith Force-users, though these darksiders may never have been true Jedi, as can be seen by the countless "Dark Jedi" trained during the reign of the Empire, during which the Jedi Order was dead and gone.

During the Clone Wars, Sidious and Tyranus had a number of Dark Jedi serving the Separatist side.

Sidious, as Emperor, continued this trend after the formation of the Empire, with Dark Jedi such as the Inquisitorius, the Secret Order, the Emperor's Hands, the Dark Side Elite, the Emperor's Royal Guard, and various Dark Side Adepts

Royal Guardsmen trace their roots to the cerulean-clad Senate Guards of the old Galactic Republic. But in comparison, there is a special elite, within this elite-of-elites, class of Imperial Guards called Sovereign Protectors who are, in addition, Force-sensitive, and heavily trained in the Dark side by the Emperor's Dark Jedi (Carnor Jax was one such).

The Emperor also trained a number of "Hands," or those who had the potential to use the Force as his personal agents. Through the Force, he was able to relay orders to these agents.

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none of those were jedi ...the emperors hand ...the royal guards ... the inquisiotors .. none of them jedi ...they didnt dress in jedi garb .. they didnt use lightsabers..they didnt follow the jedi religion ...

but as you said they WERE all uber professions which rivaled jedi ....and some of them had the same links to the force as jedi ...

Daeges,

Your original post is very well thought-out and written. You state four reasons people feel there should not be player jedi or limited player jedi. Then you state why they are unlogical. I agree with your four reasons, but your reason for them being unlogical are wrong.

I agree that SWG is not supposed to mirror the movies, but it is based on them, there is no denying that. Thus, it should somewhat follow cannon. If your not going to follow cannon, don't call the game SWG but "Men with Glowsticks" or something. I would have been fine having players be jedi if they would have been kept rare, like SOE said they would be when this game first started. If they were more rare, then they could be more powerful without debalencing the game, and i would look at them with awe instead of disgust whenever isee them ingame.

I'm doing nothing of the sort....the FORCE is the only ALPHA....and any class you could make to oppose jedi in game could be created by using a mix of in game jedi and regular templates

Those who use the force ARE jedi or grey jedi, ordark jedi, if your gonna argue over names then then you don't understand that there was a time before jedi...they didn't magicly appear....non jedi became jedi, they seperated (to become grey) or fell (to become dark) the truth is no one knows when or how a force user first became a jedi, and that it isn't happening on a thousand star systems every day, I don't pretend to give the answer, you can't however, say that its something that is not possible for anyone to become.

Dark Sith Lords....TWO DARK SITH LORDS (and note, there is never a limit on dark jedi, or dark force adapts, or darkies or whatever you wanna call em):

Dark Lord of the Sith or Dark Lady of the Sith is a title taken by the leader of the Sith Order. The Dark Lords of the Sith are acknowledged as the leaders of their order, and the most powerful Sith of their time. Only one Dark Lord existed at a time until the reign of Lord Kaan, at which point the title was bestowed upon all the leading Sith Lords of the Brotherhood of Darkness. Following destruction of the Sith during the Battle of Ruusan, the dark order was reformed by Darth Bane. Bane instituted the "Rule of Two," which decreed that at no point in time could their number be more than two: a Master and an apprentice. Despite their difference in power, rank, and skill, both bore the title "Dark Lord of the Sith." The predecessor of the Dark Lords of the Sith was Xendor, the leader of the first Dark Jedi who rebelled against their Jedi Masters in the First Great Schism.

Message Edited by Quiet420 on 07-25-2005 04:29 PM

I fully agree with the posts in the same vein as TheMadCoder and Saarkaiso far. The game used to actually have this thing called the Galactic Civil War in it. During the game's opening days you would see hundreds of players in combat as Rebels and Imperials in most of the major cities. Now you don't even see hundred of players in these same cities. This game is in shambles because of the devs disconnect with the Star Wars community. Any game with the Star Wars name is part of a franchise. SOE has not even begun to tap this franchise because most of us have learned how SOE ruined the SW feel in this game. I have played since day one (yes got about 4 hours in before the "big crash") and for the first time am truly thinking of taking time off, but not coming back when I think about SWG again. Many veteran players are leaving. These are the players that actually work and can continue to pay for our accounts. Little Johnny, sitting in his parent's basement milking money off of his folks, or little Johnny who is in school and plays in the summer, surely will have the time to grind out a Jedi but once the parents get sick of paying to play a video game each month, who's money will SOE want?

There is no question that when a person tries to throw vocabulary around in an attempt to appear well-educated (however; using the terms inaccurately in several instances) they fancy themselves an expert at life. Judging from Daedes register date (03-06-2005) he/she is in no way an expert at the way this game has progressed. Keep playing for a bit Daeges and see how Jedi have ruined this game. You too will eventually see this.

SOE markets the game as "The total experience" and "Everything you need to live the Star Wars experience online." They also claim it takes place post-Episode 4 and pre-Episode 5. This just does add up and is turning people off to the game.

In the old days, the cities were crowded on every server and the game had real upside. Today the game has no assemblance of the Galactic Civil War (the very premise of Lucas' creation in the first place!!) and in no way represents a time period set between Episode 4 and 5. The game has become a joke to Star Wars fans and we are leaving the game in mass. The website www.mmochart.com is proof of this in a bad way for SOE. Anytime someone posts a message here, on these boards, that challenges SOEs dev team and makes a real point of how the current game is in shambles compared to where the game used to be, the post is quickly deleted. Try it sometime (all those who understand how the game was). If you think this game is any fun, trust me...it was 1 million times better in the days when Jedi had no idea how to unlock and when it was truly a random occurance.

Message Edited by Niles_Sjostrom on 07-25-2005 01:53 PM

-Hey SOE, here's a novel idea. Instead of trying to get new customers to replace the lost ones. Try fixing the bugs so you get new customers and KEEP the old ones too! Next time you delete a post that puts SOE in a bad light, think about giving us reasons to put you in a good light instead. ...you see when someone buys the game it means they want to like it. When they cancel an account it means you made someone who liked the game dislike it. How's that good business again?
Where does a 90% drop is customer base equal good business? SOE

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Quiet420 wrote:

I'm doing nothing of the sort....the FORCE is the only ALPHA....and any class you could make to oppose jedi in game could be created by using a mix of in game jedi and regular templates

Those who use the force ARE jedi or grey jedi, ordark jedi, if your gonna argue over names then then you don't understand that there was a time before jedi...they didn't magicly appear....non jedi became jedi, they seperated (to become grey) or fell (to become dark) the truth is no one knows when or how a force user first became a jedi, and that it isn't happening on a thousand star systems every day, I don't pretend to give the answer, you can't however, say that its something that is not possible for anyone to become.

Sith Lords....TWO SITH LORDS (and note, there is never a limit on dark jedi, or dark force adapts, or darkies or whatever you wanna call em):

Dark Lord of the Sith or Dark Lady of the Sith is a title taken by the leader of the Sith Order. The Dark Lords of the Sith are acknowledged as the leaders of their order, and the most powerful Sith of their time. Only one Dark Lord existed at a time until the reign of Lord Kaan, at which point the title was bestowed upon all the leading Sith Lords of the Brotherhood of Darkness. Following destruction of the Sith during the Battle of Ruusan, the dark order was reformed by Darth Bane. Bane instituted the "Rule of Two," which decreed that at no point in time could their number be more than two: a Master and an apprentice. Despite their difference in power, rank, and skill, both bore the title "Dark Lord of the Sith." The predecessor of the Dark Lords of the Sith was Xendor, the leader of the first Dark Jedi who rebelled against their Jedi Masters in the First Great Schism.

Lightsabers:

In the hands of *someone trained to use the Force*, a lightsaber is a powerful and versatile tool. In the hands of the untrained, however, it is far more of a danger to the user, mainly because only the hilt has mass in any detectable amount, making it difficult to judge the position of the blade accurately during use. Also, the arcing of the blade back along itself generates a gyroscopic force causing instability in the hands of the untrained.

the concept of the force is based on religion, but is not a religion in the star wars universe:

The Force is an energy field that is generated by all living things and permeates the universe and all things in it. It is clearly indebted to the Od of Baron Carl Reichenbach. Its principles resemble some real-world religions like the Shinto religion of Japan, certain Celtic druidic concepts, and certain tenets of ascetic and mystic Christianity. It also bears a close similarity to the Chinese notion of qigong and many others. The earliest description of this "energy field" would be akin to that of pran, of which pranayama is a scientific practice originating in India and a part of yoga (which predates, and is the basis of chinese martial arts). In truth, the Force is an amalgamation of religions and philosophies, intended as a metaphor for spirituality itself. As in real world spirituality (as understood by George Lucas), there is the potential for a "light" and a "dark" side in each person, and in the universe itself. The "light" would also relate to yogic theories on leading a noble life, present in aphorisms describing noble children as those who follow the light.

As explained in the movie Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace, Jedi get their ability to understand the Force from symbiotic organisms within their bodies called midi-chlorians (an obvious play on mitochondrion and chloroplast). Also known as "the messengers of life," these organisms allow a Jedi to "hear the Force," and it is said that "without them life could not exist" . The higher the midi-chlorian count in their cells, the stronger the Force is with the particular individual. Their presence could be somehow sensed by other Jedi. Anakin Skywalker had a reading of over 20,000 which was even higher than Master Yoda's, leading many, most notably Qui-Gon Jinn, into believing Anakin to be the prophesied "Chosen One."

ALL THE POTENTIAL ALPHA CLASSES LISTED IN THIS THREAD ARE ALREADY POSSIBLE IN GAME THROUGH USE OF THE FORCE.

Message Edited by Quiet420 on 07-25-200504:25 PM

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you are full of it man ... what are you talking about? no one disputes that jedi existed no one disputes that sith existed ..

but not all force users were jedi.. why is that so hard for you to except? jedi in itself is a religion as well as a martial art ... not everyone followed JEDI ... not all force users USED LIGHTSABERS ... only jedi did ... not all force users who used the dark side of the force were dark jedi.....dark jedi was a loose term appliedto jedi pupils who fell to the dark side but were not sith ... but by NO MEANS did the classification encompass all other force users not sith or jedi ....

NO way can you tell me there is any other reason to object to the possibility ofother alpha classes being made available in the game... other than the anxiety it will give players who already followed the trend and went jedi. because with the additions of new proffessions theymight lose their superior status or decide one of the other professions are more appealing and grind over ...

here are some quotes of my own , showing there to be other powerful beings besides jedi.

**** The lightsaber is the weapon of a Jedi, an elegant armament of a more civilized time. In comparison, blasters are crude, inaccurate and loud affairs. To carry a lightsaber is an example of incredible skill and confidence, dexterity and attunement to the Force. ( these are a jedi's weapon)

****Originally, the Mandalorian clans were led by the warlord "Mandalore the First" and were ranked amongst the best fighters in the galaxy, thriving for battle. They were known for their use of cutting-edge weaponry and held to a strict code of honor. They were a gray-skinned warrior race. These Mandalorians wore crusader armor that differed from one soldier to the next. ( as you can see jango was only a pupil of not a true mandolorian )

****The Nightsisters were a group of Dathomiri Witches (usually exiled from their clan) who used the dark side of the Force. their leader was Gethzerion, who endlessly terrorized the other Dathomiri Witch clans. a new clan of Nightsisters was formed by Tamith Kai in the Great Canyon. This clan accepted males and treated them as equals instead of slaves. The best of the clan were sent to the Shadow Academy for more training, with the rest remaining in the Great Canyon.( as you can see here there is no relation to jedi or the jedi order these dark force wielders are NOT " dark jedi" )

****The Chiss of Csilla are a disciplined species, advanced enough to build a sizable fleet and an empire over two dozen worlds. The rest of the galaxy made first contact with the Chiss when a taskforce dispatched by Supreme Chancellor Palpatine stumbled upon Thrawn's fleet. The young blue-skinned commander was able to decimate the intruders despite inferior weapons and numbers. The taskforce's commander, Kinman Doriana, asked Thrawn for a parley. The two conversed, and Doriana was able to appeal to Thrawn's cool sense of logic and order. He outlined his mission -- to destroy the incoming Outbound Flight vessel -- to Thrawn, spelling out the threat that this vessel filled with Jedi Masters posed to the Chiss people. Thrawn completed the mission that Doriana failed and destroyed the Outbound Flight project. ( seen here the chiss were more intelligent and power than the empire and the jedi, if only they had the equipment and money to compete)

so my point is .. your wrong .. not all powerful beings in the galaxy used the force number one .. and number two not all force users had resemblence to jedi...

the jedi did not have a monopoly on the force ... no one can own it

Message Edited by Thassk on 07-25-2005 02:14 PM