Bounty Hunter Archive

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Tucheck wrote:

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Caelrie wrote:

If either of those BHs had caught me at a bad time, I'd have lost.

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This tells me that it is the actions of a Jedi that control the "first strike" in order to have a chance at killing a Jedi.

If I attack ANY other time then when a Jedi is not ready, I will not win.

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MasterSad wrote:

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Tanks wrote:

we cannot wear armor

You have innate armor and Force aura

you do 2xs the damage we do....

Ahem, are you MLS? If so go ahead and hit someone with Power hit, head hit, leg hit, and body hit in succession while they are hitting you at the same time. Then add up the damage and calculate DPS. You should notice that your DPS is higher unless you have a worthless saber. You might do less damage on a single hit, but you will hit more often due to those skills having a different timer.

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Tanks you are already considering a jedi of a certain template that is MDefender+MLS. Not everyone (far from that)evey jedi has this template as it is the best in JvJ thus yoru arguments are in relevant here. Beside, not everyone (and very far from everyone) have LS that is even close to regular weapon DPS.

But I agree that 1vs1 is not a solution.

Message Edited by MasterSad on 06-16-200509:27 AM

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Message Edited by Thassk on 06-16-2005 01:49 AM

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Thassk wrote:

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MasterSad wrote:

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Tanks wrote:

we cannot wear armor

You have innate armor and Force aura

you do 2xs the damage we do....

Ahem, are you MLS? If so go ahead and hit someone with Power hit, head hit, leg hit, and body hit in succession while they are hitting you at the same time. Then add up the damage and calculate DPS. You should notice that your DPS is higher unless you have a worthless saber. You might do less damage on a single hit, but you will hit more often due to those skills having a different timer.

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Tanks you are already considering a jedi of a certain template that is MDefender+MLS. Not everyone (far from that)evey jedi has this template as it is the best in JvJ thus yoru arguments are in relevant here. Beside, not everyone (and very far from everyone) have LS that is even close to regular weapon DPS.

But I agree that 1vs1 is not a solution.

Message Edited by MasterSad on 06-16-200509:27 AM

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the same goes for BH though ... not every BH has an equally powerful template .... the rifleman with uber rifles ... food .. and combat medic or who dabble in other boxes for added specials ( like root) are the best ... not the norm .... pistoleers have a much harder time soloing jedi since we are so close ... there are many other template combinations who have a harder time as well...

all jedi seem to think of us as UBER rifleman with SUPER max damage rifles and +50 in accuracy and speed attachments .. not the case ...not the case at all ....the people who advocate 1 vs 1 jedi hunting .. should realize many BH will be alienated from their proffession due to this change...

bh will at least need an increase in pay to buy the proper equipment neccessary to be powerful enough to solo them ....

i would also hate to see all the Bounty hunters becoming rifleman or whatever the template flavor of theyearlyquarter will be just to be able to effectively complete their bounties ..i would say we need to steer towards more diversity in templates as it is now, people are too similar ....

Message Edited by Thassk on 06-16-2005 01:49 AM

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Tanks wrote:

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MasterSad wrote:

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Tanks wrote:

we cannot wear armor

You have innate armor and Force aura

you do 2xs the damage we do....

Ahem, are you MLS? If so go ahead and hit someone with Power hit, head hit, leg hit, and body hit in succession while they are hitting you at the same time. Then add up the damage and calculate DPS. You should notice that your DPS is higher unless you have a worthless saber. You might do less damage on a single hit, but you will hit more often due to those skills having a different timer.

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Tanks you are already considering a jedi of a certain template that is MDefender+MLS. Not everyone (far from that)evey jedi has this template as it is the best in JvJ thus yoru arguments are in relevant here. Beside, not everyone (and very far from everyone) have LS that is even close to regular weapon DPS.

But I agree that 1vs1 is not a solution.

Message Edited by MasterSad on 06-16-2005 09:27 AM

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No, I am not using MDef + MLS together as a yardstick. You have defenses in Defender though. I know a lot of Jedi that take 0040 Def at the very least. Now, MLS, yes I will compare for DPS purposes. You can't take less than half of a template on your offensive powers and then cry foul about DPS. Accuracy bonuses at the Master Box make a difference in damage and ability to hit. Speed bonuses help you hit faster and being able to use specials from each line of saber makes a huge difference in overall DPS as well, as they are on a different cooldown timers.

Not everyone might have a good saber, but the ones serious about PvP or PvEdo. They are the ones also that get on the terminals the most.

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K, seeing as we are doing this "yardstick" and this is not a flame.

I have a rifle that hits for 2k with crit hit, it was looted pre cu, but its there. I have rifle tapes for a DPS of 690

Add in CM for healing, thyroid rupture, etc, then stun, KD, etc, Plus a cyber arm for +10 range to be close to 80m with a rifle .... Come on, its not the jedi are too powerful, its the BHs dont utelise what they can take in the tamplate.

I have a great saber, perfect pearls, but any new jedi post CU with only good pearls available except from lvl 230+ jedi for premiums, come on, you are stating that you need more to take a jedi ?

I can kill jedi knights for fun, its strategy man, thats it.

1) use good armor, a PSG, foods, buffs, and good tactics, you can kill a knight, i can do it against master defenders anytime. so can you.

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Tanks wrote:

Not everyone might have a good saber, but the ones serious about PvP or PvEdo. They are the ones also that get on the terminals the most.

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wrong every padawan has to grind in groups now to get anynormal xp

the proposal with the 50%more dam is stupid padawans wouldnt stand a chance now at all same as non defender jedi

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Tanks wrote:

Posted on the correspondent forum for discussion with the devs.

Keld: "Jedi vs BH should be 1 vs 1"

Rebuttal: Unfortunately, that means any BH fighting a Jedi would die if the Jedi they are fighting is a bit over half template.

Solution: If you want this to happen I suggest a BH special damage modifier that increases damage vs a Jedi. 10% at investigation 3, 10% at Investigation 4 and 30% at Master BH. This would mean a 50% increase overall in damage output (Jedi = 1.5X full template) against Jedi ONLY and only during the BH mission (same combat that locks others out would enable the damage bonus).

i don't consider jedi 1.5 than normal classes, some jedi templates are very resistant to BH damage but this makes them not 1.5 better than for example a good melee template.

said that a 50% improvement of damage will be unbalanced for jedi that didn't chose defender, a defender template is probably taking 1/8damage compared to a non defender.

you have also to consider that jedi heals will be nerfed soon and this willhave alredy a huge impact on jedi effectiveness (expecially for non defenders)

about 1 v 1 fights i think that a good bh can force jedi to retreat or to a tie, but i agree that is very difficult in a "duel scenario" to take out a good jedi template/player also the situation can be different in an ambush scenario... there are some templates that are difficult to deal with and have the means to deal with ambushes but i think that if you chose your time right your hopponent can be in real troubles. (expecially after healing nerf)

Blix: "The Jedi names and mission amounts should not show on the terminals"
Rebuttal:

• If the names are truly anonymous it would be very possible to get the same mission on a Jedi that is on Kasshyk or sitting in a Cantina, AFK, in a player city, over and over again.


• It would be also very possible to keep getting missions on Jedi that a solo BH has no chance of defeating (see rebuttle above). Obviously, no grouping would be possible.


• It would also not be possible to ascertain a Jedi is online or know the faction of the Jedi.


• It would also take away from the RP aspects of bounty hunting.


• Kashyyyk has become Jedi grinding spot now, so BHs will not be able to hunt Jedi via PC informants there either (will cause even more resentment in the BH community).


• BHs will not be able to use /tar Jediname when they get to their querry.

Solutions:

• Make it so a Jedi is assigned a pseudonym when his mission is created. This way if he is on Kashyyyk or AFK in a player structure, the BH can pick another mission.

if you do this you have no more a 1 vs 1 scenario BHs will have just to group and look at the same pseudonym to hunt

• List only online Jedi missions on a SEPARATE PC Bounty tab along with their faction.

i agree for faction, but i don't think that to list only online jedi will be a good idea. on low population servers and in some timeframe is likelly that there will be very few jedi logged, this will end up with the problem above, with many BHs against a single jedi.

as BH i must admit that i will like to chose just from people online, but also is not so time consuming to check if they are on, i don't add jedis on my friend list but still you need just a couple of secs to see if they are on.

the problem here can be that with random jedi names + jedi not on will be quite difficult to find a jedi to hunt, also will be problematic (even when you chose an offline jedi) to know when he is on...

here some suggestions

- Introduce a sort of encryption system with the key = BH name + date, this way every jedi will have the same pseudonym for a given BH in a given day, but 2 BHs will have not the same jedi for the same name.

with a solution like this will be still possible to skip jedis that are offline (if we want to do a "fast hunt") but not to organize an hunting group.

- permit to araks to "track" offline jedis, or introduce a new system that tells to BH if the jedi is on.... this should work like that...

after a random amount of time that a jedi logged in (5-15+mins) all BHs whit a mission on him (and with his ID signature) receive a message (mail) teling them that their mark has logged.

it can be from the arak.. when you use it on an offline jedi it doesn't tell you that the mark is not on, but begin to perform the search teling you that your target is not logged but he will continue to look for him.

or from an informant of a certain planet... when the jedi log you receive a mail from a spy net op that tell you that he have informations of your target and that he have been "spotted" on his planet.

- keep missions mostly as they are now, maybe with pseudonym, but cap the number of BHs that can attack the jedi at a given time.

basically you can even have 10 bhs on you, but when the first BH attack the other ones will not be able to jump in. the jedi will be again attackable after 15min that the fight finished (with the death of BH or jedi that escaped)

maybe cap the number of attemps that a BH can have in a single mission, like 3 or 5, after these attemps the mission is considered failed as if the BH was killed.

this way will not be possible for a single BH to "block" a jedi mission, and every BHs will have their chance to take that mark

• Allow the Arakydn droid toreveal the Jedi's real name along with the planet location so the BH can use his targeting macros later on, or abort the mission if he wishes at that point.

again this way will be not so hard to coordinate to hunt the same jedi.

• Again, if you are not going to allow grouping or not list bounty amounts BHs should have the skills/mods to take on a full template Jedi.

i think BHs will benefit more from some better defence skills than to offence mods, atm i see most BHs templates as so and so, not only in jedi hunt, but in general effectiveness.

is also true that states will probably be revampled soon, and that BHs have a very good states arsenal.

• Add BH terminals on Kashyyk that will list only Jedi that are currently online, and on that planet, seeing that we would no longer be able to use PC informants. This way at least we'd be able to start looking for them (still would take a long while to manually search each instance).

for kashyyk i will prefer to see probe problem solved, a terminal there will just permit to cycle througt various missions until you find the one of the jedi at starport, that's not a real hunt

One thing to consider before making any changes, if any, is that a lot of the complaints to date have been due to the fact that a lot of newbie Jedi had never PvPed, and also were under the impression that they had to drop non-Jedi skills to level effectively due to CL levels and Padawan effectiveness in solo play. So, when they started grouping and getting visibility, they got wasted.

Now, people are used to CU. Jedi are picking up skills like Rifleman/TK/Swordsman along with Jedi healing and defenses. As a result low level Padawans are actually MORE dangerous adversaries than mid-level Jedi.

It might not be necessary to make any changes to the BH/Jedi system to solve the problem of BHs picking on low level Padawans, as the problem seems to be solving itself for the most part.

I am ready to discuss any of these issues or possible solutions.

Regards,

Message Edited by Tanks on 06-15-2005 10:11 PM

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disable force cloak when a bh initiates combat with his mark

tweak the delay modifier of jedi healing a little bit ( maybe a 6 second delay between heals instead of the current 3 seconds )

if these 2 changes are made i have no issues going against jedi 1 vs 1 .

i don't consider jedi 1.5 than normal classes, some jedi templates are very resistant to BH damage but this makes them not 1.5 better than for example a good melee template.

said that a 50% improvement of damage will be unbalanced for jedi that didn't chose defender, a defender template is probably taking 1/8damage compared to a non defender.( you chose between master defenderto PVP with regular professions ... or another template better for PVP against jedi .. it was your choice)

you have also to consider that jedi heals will be nerfed soon and this willhave alredy a huge impact on jedi effectiveness (expecially for non defenders( jedi damage is increased so it evens out .. you dont need to heal as long if your damage is increased)

about 1 v 1 fights i think that a good bh can force jedi to retreat or to a tie, but i agree that is very difficult in a "duel scenario" to take out a good jedi template/player also the situation can be different in an ambush scenario... there are some templates that are difficult to deal with and have the means to deal with ambushes but i think that if you chose your time right your hopponent can be in real troubles. (expecially after healing nerf)(problem is without help from other BH ... it will be very hard for most templatesto root/snare/kd a jedi long enough to keephim in placeto fight..he will probably decide to force run should the fight not go his way ... get into a better position or place to fight negating "first strike", making it moot, and since we may be hunting blindly with anonymous missions it will be harder to set the jedi up for an ambush ...same goes for the inability to track jedi on kashyyk)

if you do this you have no more a 1 vs 1 scenario BHs will have just to group and look at the same pseudonym to hunt( i dont think the anymous missions werent to address the jedi one vs one .. even though there is talk of making it ONE vs ONE ..i think they were implemented to address the problem of "griefing")

- Introduce a sort of encryption system with the key = BH name + date, this way every jedi will have the same pseudonym for a given BH in a given day, but 2 BHs will have not the same jedi for the same name.( then jedi nerfs will need to take place to level the field should it become a one on one affair, otherwise it should remain that bh can group, maybe different size teams for different level jedi)

with a solution like this will be still possible to skip jedis that are offline (if we want to do a "fast hunt") but not to organize an hunting group.

- permit to araks to "track" offline jedis, or introduce a new system that tells to BH if the jedi is on.... this should work like that...( would waste the bounty hunters resources un-needingly)

after a random amount of time that a jedi logged in (5-15+mins) all BHs whit a mission on him (and with his ID signature) receive a message (mail) teling them that their mark has logged.( waste of time , could add upto a lot of timewasted for a Bounty hunter)

it can be from the arak.. when you use it on an offline jedi it doesn't tell you that the mark is not on, but begin to perform the search teling you that your target is not logged but he will continue to look for him.( whats the point? they log in safe spots? and why would we bother? the jedi might not log for a week )

i think BHs will benefit more from some better defence skills than to offence mods, atm i see most BHs templates as so and so, not only in jedi hunt, but in general effectiveness.( sounds like a jedi wanting to make sure a BH cant hit hard with his "first strike")

Message Edited by Thassk on 06-16-2005 06:24 AM

eheh Thassk i was one of the first BHs on my server and i'm still a MBH

the problem with the damage improvement is basically that si tought to address the problem of high defence that a MDefender get, but this will just force jedi to become defenders or be gimped

and is not that defender = BH PvP, non defender jedi PvP, defender is good both in PvP and PvE against both jedi and non jedi, this will be expecially true after the healing nerf...

for these reasons before to see some artificial system to improve a damage that is alredy good compared to every ranged profession and to make it "unbalanced" i will the healing nerf implemented and defence/healing area (that i consider the real weakness of BHs templates) be addressed.

and as said this from an old BH before than a jedi.

for the change to terminals it is mostly done to address the 5 vs 1 situation, i heard also "rumors" that tiggs or tanks alredy proposed a "static" pseudonym for jedi but that the idea was rejected because it will not resolve this "issue".

i don't say that the griefing is also a factor, but i really think that the first obejctive of this change is to get rid of BHs gank squads

for the track of offline jedis is i thing that i always wanted eheh , it doesn't use any BH resources if you don't, is just an option to know when your mark log in, this can also be very nice for every non full time jedi hunters that can chose a jedi, do their stuff and do the hunt when their mark is on.

consider also that there where around the idea to put BHs that fail many missions on terms, if something like that will be implemented will probably be not so easy to get and drop missions so a system like that can become quite usefull.

and is not that logged jedi are all around awaiting BHs to attack them, even when you hunt a logged jedi you can find him in some private structure doing his stuff, or maybe in space fighting... there are even some jedi that, even afk,keep their char logged in their house just to piss BHs.

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Tanks wrote:

Posted on the correspondent forum for discussion with the devs.

Keld: "Jedi vs BH should be 1 vs 1"

Rebuttal: Unfortunately, that means any BH fighting a Jedi would die if the Jedi they are fighting is a bit over half template.

Solution: If you want this to happen I suggest a BH special damage modifier that increases damage vs a Jedi. 10% at investigation 3, 10% at Investigation 4 and 30% at Master BH. This would mean a 50% increase overall in damage output (Jedi = 1.5X full template) against Jedi ONLY and only during the BH mission (same combat that locks others out would enable the damage bonus).

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Here is the problem I see with your solution.

First off, we have yet to see the nerf to our healing (mind cost). How can we discuss anything without first seeing how this change will affect Jedi healing? For all we know a Jedi will no longer be able to heal more than 5-10 times before the mind bar is completely gone. If that is the case, any kind of bump in damage is completely ridiculous as Jedi already start off gimped if they have no defender.

Secondly, not all BH templates are going to be good against Jedi. A Rifleman BH with a good weapon will totally destroy Jedi with a 50% damage boost unless they have Defender. As people have said you will see 2 hit incaps easy. That means you will have about 2 seconds to actually heal if a BH starts attacking you. That also means any Jedi engaged in combat while out in PvE will almost certainly be incaped. The repercussions of a 50% damage increase will make the great BH's unbeatable and the average-respec ones will finally be able to win against most Jedi. If that is your goal, go ahead with your proposal.

Look I understand this whole idea of 1vs1 sounds pretty fricking ridiculous at this point. There is no way a fully templated Jedi should technically lose 1vs1 against a BH (unless that Jedi is fighting say a DJK NPC on Dath lol) but things are changing with Jedi heals. I think the important thing to remember at FanFest is the objective the devs are going for is to eventually make Jedi = the power of a normal profession. They said it will be small/baby steps towards that goal but eventually Jedi will be nerfed down. So when the devs say their objective is to make BH missions 1vs1, keep in mind what the overall goal is for the Jedi profession.

btw, I completely disagree and wish they would just leave Jedi with more power and keep the 5 vs 1 as is. Yeah it sucks as a Padawan grinding but who cares .........all the old Jedi had to go through it so I don't see a reason why current ones don'thave to through it as well. Heck I had to deal with unbeatable TKM/BH when I was grinding.......I could never win until the end of my grind. But alas, Jedi is becoming Carebear city so I guess we deserve all the nerfs we are going to get /sigh

Tanks,

Your ideas are bang on the mark mate....hang in there and keep at 'em

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Caelrie wrote:

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Tucheck wrote:

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Caelrie wrote:

If either of those BHs had caught me at a bad time, I'd have lost.

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This tells me that it is the actions of a Jedi that control the "first strike" in order to have a chance at killing a Jedi.

If I attack ANY other time then when a Jedi is not ready, I will not win.

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As it should be.

I can do my part as a Jedi to minimize your window of opportunity. But in the natural course of playing the game, there are things I cannot control that you can take advantage of.

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Such as? Letting you passive macros wear off? They don't. Most Jedi I know set up a macro that includes abilities that have no "cool down", so as soo as it drops, it is reapplied. I find what you are suggesting to be insulting. Based on your statements, I can only conclude that you wish to turn BHs into scavangers. Looking only for the hurt or wounded Jedi to kill. Is this your idea of "tactics"? While I agree timing has something to do with the success rate of killing a Jedi, my orginal statement still stands....the "first strike" is in the hands of the Jedi....not the BH. Just because I can decide to attack at ANY time does NOT make it a bonus for the profession, if there is only a small window opportunity for success at any given time.

I think of it as if I'm standing on a diving board of an empty pool, waiting for the rain to fill the pool so that I may jump. I COULD jump any time I like, but if I do, it will not be good. Thus....I am NOT in control of when I jump into the pool. You and I have talked enough, I feel confident you understand what I'm saying, and can agree that the "first strike" choice, given to BHs is overrated.


As for "paying your dues". Orginally I was going to take it to the "I walked 16 miles to school everyday, barefoot in 6 feet of snow, uphill, both ways", but decided it would not get anything accomplished to try and compare "holo-grinding" to the "bugged as hell" road to MBH of the past.
I will not say either profession had a "hard" grind...I will say they were both long and frustrating, but not hard.

I believe everyone who plays SWG is caught between what we have learned about Jedi from GL, and the mechanics of the game. There was recently a brillant post by EEMAN who said, "The hard grind is there to make them rare, not make them elite. It could take 2 years and they be no more powerful than a regular player and the long grind is STILL justified because it exists for the sole purpose of making jedi rare".
I believe EEMAN is correct. In the movies we see Jedi are the most powerful characters in the movies (minus code 66 when they get "one shot killed" in the back Now THATS what I call an effective first strike...if the Devs want to give BHs a % increase of damage for the first 4 offensive attack attempts, THEN I might call the first strike worth something). Then you have the game itself...where balance MUST exist. You paid your dues and you reward is a Jedi character with better then normal skills, but they should not be unbeatable. When the system goes 1 v 1 (and it will, no matter what the community OR Tanks says and does) give the strenghts of the professions currently, we are set up for defeat. Why is this okay with you? Why is it okay that a BH would lose 99% of the time in a 1 vs 1 situation against a fully templated Jedi? More then that, with the existing exploits and issues employed by Jedi now, most grinding Jedi have a much eaiser path to Jedi then ever before. It's like saying once you get to a fully templated Jedi, no BH will ever kill you again, and for the bonus, we are going to make it even easier for you to become a fully templated Jedi by ignoring the exploits and bugs you may use. See where I'm going with this? The ONLY loss of XP by a Jedi comes from a BH. Bottom line, you paid your dues and so did I, but the fact is, the Devs made is much eaiser for BOTH professions to grind now.

Last night I came out of retirement for one night to "test" my new template. I TRIED to go overt and do SOMETHING in the GCW, however, no sooner did I go overt, then to have 3 Jedi uncloak from behind me. Knocked Down and 30 seconds latter and I'm cloning. So I decided to go hunting. Last night, out of the 5 Jedi missions I took:

1 house sitter
1 used the "startle shot" bug to remove my paralyze (ended in draw, and they paid me off, I still attacked though until he hopped in a speeder and ran away)
1 ran into a house AFTER attacking me
2 were killed

My point is, the "dues" are not what they once were, as a result I don't think the reward should be the same.

Message Edited by Tucheck on 06-16-2005 10:52 AM