Bounty Hunter Archive
Thread: Dev Comments at FanFest Regarding BH/Jedi Missions My Response
Eutock
Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:21 pm
#53
Leatherneck_of_Alderaan wrote:
Hrm. Ok, I hear you. However....
If they're just as tough or tougher, why is it that the lowbies are the targets? Seems like if you're going to face the same risks, one should go for the higher reward.
My point wasn't about mission acceptance proportions, onlyabout the /con perceptions of Jedi. But here's an explanation:
x000 Healer is the large equalizing factor for all high-end Jedi right now. So even poor PvP Jedi can survive through use of Infusion + Heal. Bounty hunters will generally need a 2-3 man group to go after the 200k+ targets, and getting the same mission for even 2 is very challenging. Plus, when grouped against a 200k target (for example) you'll be splitting the reward to either ~65k - 100k. If reward is your motive, then it's probably better to go for the 65k -100k targets solo, which will most likely not have 4000 Healer.
Ezzah
Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:28 pm
#54
Leatherneck_of_Alderaan wrote:
Eutock wrote:
Amen. There is a great fallacy throughout these boards that low-level Paddies are easy kills. In some cases they are, but it's not unlike the full template Jedi that sucks at PvP. A newbie Jedi can be every bit the challenge of a Knight, in some cases more so given the greater diversity in non-Jedi skills to choose from.
Ezzah wrote:
I do not see the problem with paddys being attacked and killed. If they persist on getting themselves on the terms, being hunted is the only way they will learn otherwise.
Hrm. Ok, I hear you. However....
If they're just as tough or tougher, why is it that the lowbies are the targets? Seems like if you're going to face the same risks, one should go for the higher reward.
Most of the time i believe BH try to hunt fully templated jedi, however to answer your question, fully templated Jedi arnt out there grinding. They get on the terms because they cant keep their saber in the pants in citys. They dont care if they get on the boards, and when they arent in citys, theyre sitting in cantinas. Low levels on the other hand are out there grinding away and getting on the terms. I think most BH have gotten bored with hunting cantina full templates and as have I, gone after paddys just because i know they will be out grinding and not sitting in the cantina. Its also a good way to get cash.
There are lots of options if they want us to hunt more full templates. Give full templates a reason to leave cantinas. Let us in their cantinas/houses (giving smugglers a lockpicking skill would be nice). Make full templates worth more. Make it harder for paddys to get on the boards (eg remove group visibility for jedi, as long as there are still viable ways to get them on the boards).
The devs really need to grow some balls and start making some decisions to improve this game and they need stop having knee-jerkreactions to misguided whining from the vocal minorities. After exams ive got a nice long post detailing how to fix combat in the game. It will be based on letting everyone do what they want to do, as opposed to trying to put players in boxs, and letting certain playstyles ruin others styles. So i dont want to go into it too much right now.
Smokah
Message Edited by Ezzah on 06-15-2005 10:30 PM
Thassk
Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:49 pm
#55
first off .... let me say ... i agree 100% with this tanks ... you've hit one of the major problems on the nail ....
many padawan and jedi are not only new to the profession ... they are new to the game ...
many( not all) of these players bought the game for one reason .,, to be a jedi ... the prospect of being a jedi within a virtual world that mimics life ..where not everyone else will be a jedi... it gives them a venue to roleplay their fantasies out in ...to feel elite.. a jedi knight .....their Quality being respected and feared, by those who arent ...if it was all about the lightsaber or jedi itsself .. and not the power over others ..they would have joined another video game ... where everyone is a jedi knight ...now im not saying feeling this way is wrong .. its actually quite natural ...( in many ways BH are the same ... but i dont think they expect a clear cut, overwhelming advantage as jedi do. after all in the movies jedi were practically invincible to anything but another jedi )
but heres the problem in this i think ...many players buy guides like the ones on ebay, read guides on websites.. subscribe to exploit sites ...i have seen guides like " how to be a jedi in 30 days"....many of these new players are on their way to becoming jedi within one month ....the guides give macros, detailed steps on how to become force sensitive .. and steps on powergrinding ...
so we have kids buying the game and immediately powergrinding for that jedi spot ( the clone cartoons and the aniticpation for episode III brought a lot of people in love with just jedi.. instead of love for an mmorpg, to the game )
TO put it in a little bit of a perspective .. i know a guy ... who would sit perched afk ..in places like the biker slums of mos eisely ... and behind the starport.. ( many players did this in more difficult areas... many with creatures ...killing all night long while they were sleeping .. ) and he told me he practically grinded his FS skills template this way ...using macros with things like ui target inward ...with healing and looting the corposes as well, to make the bodies dissapear and force new spawns in the static spawn spot .....now jedi are doing it largely unchecked in places like kashyyk in the ryatt trails ...afk all night long on a spot in the web weaver path grouped with 7 other afk jedi .. all running macros ....never learning how to really play..
now the problem with this is .. many never learn the game ...they dont learn which skill boxes they should pick up and drop .. and in what order ...they dont learn how to use their moves in PVP ... they arent even learning the depth of PvE ...even the ones that arent grinding afk ... who are soley engrossed in PvE .. grinding for jedi ....are using simple mechanics within that PvE grinding .. relying heavily on grouped teamates ... and group effort to survive .. and not preparing themselves for the BH PVP ....they arent really getting deep into the tactics of PvE either ...just mindlessly grinding .. and using minimal effort in the PvE situations ....and since it was a grind to jedi from day 1 .. they never learned how to use their regular professions either ....and never searching for the proper equipment or food .. to boost their stats ..
so here we have inexperienced players .. with badly thought out and weakly stacked templates ... grinding the alpha profession .. who have to now fend themselves off from BH ....
but we still havent truely reached the problem .. lets go deeper ....
we have ourselves a hyptothetical jedi ... grinding .. his dream to be like luke or anakin was in the movies ....say he gets attacked 5 times during the day from BH ... he kills 4 out of the 5 but one kills him at the end of the day ....losing only 1 out of5 fights isnt bad ... but he still gets upset and complains and/or opens a ticket ...because hes lost his XP to that one BH ...and the day before that ...he fought 6 bh ... and lost to one ... and the before that .. fought 4 BH and lost to one .. and the day before that fought 7 BH and lost to one ....with the constant attacks although hes winning most of his fights he still eventually falls to one very experienced very well equipped PVP savvy BH ... and gets upset ...because it draws him out of his fantasy... ..a "real" jedi wouldnt lose .. a "real" jedi like anakin is untouchable ..his in-game ego is hurt ... and he becomes angry that he is not fullfilling the image he saw himself as being when he first bought the game ....
he also feels that he is being griefed ... because he fends off 5 or 6 BH attacks a day .... but its not lack of power within his template ... or overpowered BH that are doing this ... no one is "griefing him" .. or singling out his missions .. its just the fact that .. there are so many darn BH out there ( im one of em who jumped on the BH bandwagon ) .,, and they are all looking for people not AFK in houses ... online .. and not on kashyyk ...... one is bound to be able to beat him in PVP ...we bascially have a game where ... two professions are becoming the most attractive .. bounty hunters ... and jedi .... so bh numbers have risen sharply
the problem isnt in the mechanics ... i think its more in the frequency of attacks ...
but beforegamers push an agenda .. and ask the devs to nerf another profession like bh ... we players have to understand what the real problem is .. so we can voice an opinion more accurate to the situation ... andhope for changes which will fix the real problem ....
i have heard of many jedi as well, who dont want to see more jedi ....they feel itcheapens their profession ... and making changes which make the profession even easier wont help .. it will worsen the problem......well end up having more inexperienced jedi .... more people will want to become BH to hunt these jedi ... and jedi pushing for one on one will probably end up getting their profession nerfed ....and then more jedi losing their dreamed up image of what they wanted to be .. and losing "game immersion" ...as well as feeling less unique
im not a great PVP'er ... im a regular gamer .. but i push myself to learn .. i want to learn everything i can about PVP ...the best template ..the best strategy the best equipment ....i want to learn to be the best pvp'er ...i know its not just enough that im a "bh" .. and many other people are like this .. jedi included
but because a few BH are able to really pvp well ...( that one of the 6 bh who beat that jedi throughout the day) doesnt mean BH are overpowered or have too much an easy time hunting jedi ....jedi need to accept a mind set that they have to learn how to PVP expectionally well to make it as a jedi ... jedi is supposed to be an alpha profession for one reason ... because it was the most difficult to play ...
now we have another war waging ... besides BH vs JEDI ...which many dont touch upon in their comments .. and its the MMORPG'ers vs the Star wars JEDI fans ...
the star wars jedi fans want to be untouchable .. they want to be amazing .. they want to walk around being proud and dont want their ego's hurt ..all they want is to be a jedi... then you have the MMORPG people .. who want unique characters ... a unique experience for everyone .. a true model for the real world .. and despise the idea of a uniformic "alpha class" .. where the end game is the same result as everyone else ....even the jedi once they are jedi .. hate seeing more jedi
... they too dont want a game where 50% of the players are jedi and the rest are working their way towards jedi .... and want to feel unique ...
so its a complex situation ....i feel for the devs ....
tanks .. i agree with ALL of your proposals ... especially the pseudonym name thing ... giving jedi a "nickname" or other distinguishable title or description on the terminal unique to his mission .. this is a perfect idea ...great idea ....in fact i agree with all of the proposed solutions in your
original post ....
original post ....
just as a side note im not saying which side is wrongwhich isright ..... or whos opinions are better ... im just trying to alalyze the current state of gamer's minds and feelings .. on SWG
Message Edited by Thassk on 06-16-2005 02:04 AM
Tucheck
Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:55 pm
#56
Tanks wrote:
Posted on the correspondent forum for discussion with the devs.Keld: "Jedi vs BH should be 1 vs 1"
Rebuttal: Unfortunately, that means any BH fighting a Jedi would die if the Jedi they are fighting is a bit over half template.
Solution: If you want this to happen I suggest a BH special damage modifier that increases damage vs a Jedi. 10% at investigation 3, 10% at Investigation 4 and 30% at Master BH. This would mean a 50% increase overall in damage output (Jedi = 1.5X full template) against Jedi ONLY and only during the BH mission (same combat that locks others out would enable the damage bonus).Blix: "The Jedi names and mission amounts should not show on the terminals"
Rebuttal:
- If the names are truly anonymous it would be very possible to get the same mission on a Jedi that is on Kasshyk or sitting in a Cantina, AFK, in a player city, over and over again.
- It would be also very possible to keep getting missions on Jedi that a solo BH has no chance of defeating (see rebuttle above). Obviously, no grouping would be possible.
- It would also not be possible to ascertain a Jedi is online or know the faction of the Jedi.
- It would also take away from the RP aspects of bounty hunting.
- Kashyyyk has become Jedi grinding spot now, so BHs will not be able to hunt Jedi via PC informants there either (will cause even more resentment in the BH community).
- BHs will not be able to use /tar Jediname when they get to their querry.
Solutions:
- Make it so a Jedi is assigned a pseudonym when his mission is created. This way if he is on Kashyyyk or AFK in a player structure, the BH can pick another mission.
- List only online Jedi missions on a SEPARATE PC Bounty tab along with their faction.
- Allow the Arakydn droid to reveal the Jedi's real name along with the planet location so the BH can use his targeting macros later on, or abort the mission if he wishes at that point.
- Again, if you are not going to allow grouping or not list bounty amounts BHs should have the skills/mods to take on a full template Jedi.
- Add BH terminals on Kashyyk that will list only Jedi that are currently online, and on that planet, seeing that we would no longer be able to use PC informants. This way at least we'd be able to start looking for them (still would take a long while to manually search each instance).
One thing to consider before making any changes, if any, is that a lot of the complaints to date have been due to the fact that a lot of newbie Jedi had never PvPed, and also were under the impression that they had to drop non-Jedi skills to level effectively due to CL levels and Padawan effectiveness in solo play. So, when they started grouping and getting visibility, they got wasted.Now, people are used to CU. Jedi are picking up skills like Rifleman/TK/Swordsman along with Jedi healing and defenses. As a result low level Padawans are actually MORE dangerous adversaries than mid-level Jedi.It might not be necessary to make any changes to the BH/Jedi system to solve the problem of BHs picking on low level Padawans, as the problem seems to be solving itself for the most part.I am ready to discuss any of these issues or possible solutions.
Regards,
Message Edited by Tanks on 06-15-2005 10:11 PM
Not yet ready to discuss these issues, however, thank you so very much for sharing what your poting int he Corr forums. Please let us know IF there is a response. Thank you again. Great job!
Tucheck
Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:05 pm
#58
Caelrie wrote:
If either of those BHs had caught me at a bad time, I'd have lost.
This tells me that it is the actions of a Jedi that control the "first strike" in order to have a chance at killing a Jedi.
If I attack ANY other time then when a Jedi is not ready, I will not win.
Tucheck
Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:08 pm
#59
Caelrie wrote:
EldosAirheart wrote:
Caelrie wrote:
I disagree. The dev stated that your side of the advantage is your first strike ability. I agree with him. I don't think there's any way at all the devs will make you equal in power to a Jedi while you have no penalties, a short grind, no unlocking process AND your first strike ability.
Tanks wrote:
If Jedi vs BH is going to be 1 vs 1, one of two things will have to happen. Either Jedi overall effectiveness will have to get reduced or BH effectiveness will have to increase. I prefer not to reduce Jedi effectiveness as it has negative PvE and PvP implications for the Jedi. As far as how much BH effectiveness increase is balanced? Well, that is what discussions and negotiations with the devs is all about. I am not going to negotiate against myself in the public forums though.
I see where your coming from, less work = less power, but... If we are going to have to go 1v1 on Jedi, I believe we should get some kind of increase in power. How about giving us a X percent bonus to our damage on our first strike?
What penalty are you willing to take for this power? I don't think you should get it for free. I pay dearly for MY power.
Two in a row...wow.
I'll give up the same thing you give up....XP. I'll be happy to go -4 million on my BH XP.
Let's face it...as of "right now" a fully templated Jedi might care less about negative XP. Is this how you "pay dearly"? Because it's the ONLY thing you lose from a BH death.
VegasDroopy
Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:26 pm
#60
Tanks wrote:
Posted on the correspondent forum for discussion with the devs.
Keld: "Jedi vs BH should be 1 vs 1"
Rebuttal: Unfortunately, that means any BH fighting a Jedi would die if the Jedi they are fighting is a bit over half template.
Solution: If you want this to happen I suggest a BH special damage modifier that increases damage vs a Jedi. 10% at investigation 3, 10% at Investigation 4 and 30% at Master BH. This would mean a 50% increase overall in damage output (Jedi = 1.5X full template) against Jedi ONLY and only during the BH mission (same combat that locks others out would enable the damage bonus).
Blix: "The Jedi names and mission amounts should not show on the terminals"
Rebuttal:
- If the names are truly anonymous it would be very possible to get the same mission on a Jedi that is on Kasshyk or sitting in a Cantina, AFK, in a player city, over and over again.
- It would be also very possible to keep getting missions on Jedi that a solo BH has no chance of defeating (see rebuttle above). Obviously, no grouping would be possible.
- It would also not be possible to ascertain a Jedi is online or know the faction of the Jedi.
- It would also take away from the RP aspects of bounty hunting.
- Kashyyyk has become Jedi grinding spot now, so BHs will not be able to hunt Jedi via PC informants there either (will cause even more resentment in the BH community).
- BHs will not be able to use /tar Jediname when they get to their querry.
Solutions:
- Make it so a Jedi is assigned a pseudonym when his mission is created. This way if he is on Kashyyyk or AFK in a player structure, the BH can pick another mission.
- List only online Jedi missions on a SEPARATE PC Bounty tab along with their faction.
- Allow the Arakydn droid toreveal the Jedi's real name along with the planet location so the BH can use his targeting macros later on, or abort the mission if he wishes at that point.
- Again, if you are not going to allow grouping or not list bounty amounts BHs should have the skills/mods to take on a full template Jedi.
- Add BH terminals on Kashyyk that will list only Jedi that are currently online, and on that planet, seeing that we would no longer be able to use PC informants. This way at least we'd be able to start looking for them (still would take a long while to manually search each instance).
One thing to consider before making any changes, if any, is that a lot of the complaints to date have been due to the fact that a lot of newbie Jedi had never PvPed, and also were under the impression that they had to drop non-Jedi skills to level effectively due to CL levels and Padawan effectiveness in solo play. So, when they started grouping and getting visibility, they got wasted.
Now, people are used to CU. Jedi are picking up skills like Rifleman/TK/Swordsman along with Jedi healing and defenses. As a result low level Padawans are actually MORE dangerous adversaries than mid-level Jedi.
It might not be necessary to make any changes to the BH/Jedi system to solve the problem of BHs picking on low level Padawans, as the problem seems to be solving itself for the most part.
I am ready to discuss any of these issues or possible solutions.
Regards,
Message Edited by Tanks on 06-15-2005 10:11 PM
WTG Tanks.... I totally agree with you and I hope that they see your point of view as well. Keep up the fight for us.
VegasDroopy
Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:27 pm
#61
dierwek wrote:
Solution: If you want this to happen I suggest a BH special damage modifier that increases damage vs a Jedi. 10% at investigation 3, 10% at Investigation 4 and 30% at Master BH. This would mean a 50% increase overall in damage output (Jedi = 1.5X full template) against Jedi ONLY.
I do know solo Bounty Hunters that have taken a full templated Jedi. Fight might have lasted 15-20 min, but with the right kiteing, and tactics (EX. waiting for them to engage in combat) should be easily done. Knights arent something you just rush into.
What about the Jedi that arent Knights, using other professions on top of jedi to become even harder to beat.
SunSpy
Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:49 pm
#62
Jasek wrote:
I appreciate the thought you have put into your problems and solutions Tanks, however, I disagree with a few of your conclusions. There are some BH templates that can take on a full temp Jedi. If newer jedi have had to adapt their (generally weaker) post-CU builds to cope with BH, I see no problem with leaving BH power level the way it is, and let the Post-CU BH adapt their template to take on full temp Jedi.
What a crock. No BH template is going to be able to take on a fully templated Jedi one on one and beat them without extraordinary circumstances, an idiotic Jedi template and lots of luck. Some of you guys just make up the biggest bunch of lies and shop it around to suit the situation. If this were remotely possible then every BH would already have that build and you guys would be screaming that you need your power adjusted to keep you at the holy grail rate of "1.5x as powerful".
ChickenPuppy
Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:57 pm
#63
Tanks wrote:
Bastilaa wrote:
As it is a BH can hit a Non Defender Jedi for over 1000 Damage per shot add in 50% more and you have a 2 shot kill giving the Jedi no chance to react.
Most Jedi are running Infusion macros. Also, a non-defender Jedi will most likely have 4xxx heals at 1500 a pop. The only way it would be a 2 shot kill is if the Jedi does nothing. If that is the case, you don't need the extra damage anyway
.
People seem to forget a BH has the option when to attack and having first strike and your choice of when to attack. I had a lot more respect for you Tanks than asking for an I win button
If Jedi vs BH is going to be 1 vs 1, one of two things will have to happen. Either Jedi overall effectiveness will have to get reduced or BH effectiveness will have to increase. I prefer not to reduce Jedi effectiveness as it has negative PvE and PvP implications for the Jedi. As far as how much BH effectiveness increase is balanced? Well, that is what discussions and negotiations with the devs is all about. I am not going to negotiate against myself in the public forums though.
Knock Down+Startletanks, keeps the jedi from attacking, or doing anything esle for that matter= Death for non defender, and with these changes you offer... no hope.
Weasel7479
Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:24 am
#64
Not sure if its been mentioned but something that might help with the situation....how about moving player bounties to master BH only. It would seem to make sense that only a fully trained BH would be trusted to hunt such dangerous prey as jedi.
Caelrie
Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:37 am
#65
You act like nobody ever pays the price before knighthood. I paid my dues to get where I am.
Tucheck wrote:
Two in a row...wow.
I'll give up the same thing you give up....XP. I'll be happy to go -4 million on my BH XP.
Let's face it...as of "right now" a fully templated Jedi might care less about negative XP. Is this how you "pay dearly"? Because it's the ONLY thing you lose from a BH death.