Bounty Hunter Archive

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Nathanielstarr wrote:

So let me get this straight.....jedi feel that healing should not change because it's all that keeps low level jedi alive against multiple bounty hunters? Low level against multiple? Why should a low level jedi survive against multiple bounty hunters? Where does that put high level jedi at? Don't high level jedi complain about never getting hunted? They want more damage AND keep the healing the same? Really? I know jedi are unrealistic but even they can see the trade off is necessary, right? I've seen jedi fight each other for an hour straight with no winner just hit hit hit heal heal hit hit heal over and over until they finally gave up. Is that how it should be? Honestly...

I'm thinking that jedi will be even stronger really, but you might actually have to learn how to fight.

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Ok, if that wasnt directed at me then feel free to ingore what im about to say. If it was then listen up...

Jedi healing has nothing to do with low level paddys. Low level paddys should have only 1 option when a BH turns up (if they try to fight as Jedi) and that is to run. Plain, simple, no debating. Low level Jedi should be no match for a BH, end of story.

The problem with reducing healing to 250 DPS is that it makes certain Knight level Jedi not viable. As a pistoleer/MBH/smuggler4000 i can currently drop a Jedi who has no defender on live in 1v1. When healing is reduced, that wont even be a concern. Healing was the only thing making templates without defender even pretend to be viable in combat. Why should you care? Because a change like this kills diversity and forces people to become defender for survival. As a Jedi i dont want everyone being a clone of me. As a BH you should not want every Jedi to be a clone either.

Taking this a step forward, once the healing nerf happens, Jedi without defender will also become completely gimped in 1v1 PvP. On live right now, after armourbreak i can hit a master defender for 850 damage, a no defender for 1.1k. I can cycle attacks for a DPS of around 500 on a defender. Once the healing DPS is dropped to 250, a Jedi who is not master defender has 0 chance if he is within melee range.

I actually think some of these things are intended and proper, but you have to understand that others are legitimate concerns for Jedi and have a negative effect on template diversity...

Message Edited by BDragon on 06-27-2005 11:18 PM

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Eutock wrote:

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Iwoow wrote:
WIth us jedi getting nerfed alot more of you bhs will find jedi targets that will run instantly,

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So how is this any different from what's nearly always happened in BH v Jedi? At one time it was Force Run, hiding in water,the 50k HP exploited bikes, and most recently grinding at the doorstep of your temp houses, passenger rides,and the LOS exploit on Kashyyyk. The methods change but the mindsets remain the same.

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Yea sorry about that buddy, but since paddies have nothing to gain from the fight escape at any cost is the name of the game. It is advise I give all grinding paddies. One ask me when is a good time to start fighting BH? I answer when your grind is done, before that you should always run, you have nothing to gain.

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BDragon wrote:

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Nathanielstarr wrote:

So let me get this straight.....jedi feel that healing should not change because it's all that keeps low level jedi alive against multiple bounty hunters? Low level against multiple? Why should a low level jedi survive against multiple bounty hunters? Where does that put high level jedi at? Don't high level jedi complain about never getting hunted? They want more damage AND keep the healing the same? Really? I know jedi are unrealistic but even they can see the trade off is necessary, right? I've seen jedi fight each other for an hour straight with no winner just hit hit hit heal heal hit hit heal over and over until they finally gave up. Is that how it should be? Honestly...

I'm thinking that jedi will be even stronger really, but you might actually have to learn how to fight.

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Ok, if that wasnt directed at me then feel free to ingore what im about to say. If it was then listen up...

Jedi healing has nothing to do with low level paddys. Low level paddys should have only 1 option when a BH turns up (if they try to fight as Jedi) and that is to run. Plain, simple, no debating. Low level Jedi should be no match for a BH, end of story.

The problem with reducing healing to 250 DPS is that it makes certain Knight level Jedi not viable. As a pistoleer/MBH/smuggler4000 i can currently drop a Jedi who has no defender on live in 1v1. When healing is reduced, that wont even be a concern. Healing was the only thing making templates without defender even pretend to be viable in combat. Why should you care? Because a change like this kills diversity and forces people to become defender for survival. As a Jedi i dont want everyone being a clone of me. As a BH you should not want every Jedi to be a clone either.

Taking this a step forward, once the healing nerf happens, Jedi without defender will also become completely gimped in 1v1 PvP. On live right now, after armourbreak i can hit a master defender for 850 damage, a no defender for 1.1k. I can cycle attacks for a DPS of around 500 on a defender. Once the healing DPS is dropped to 250, a Jedi who is not master defender has 0 chance if he is within melee range.

I actually think some of these things are intended and proper, but you have to understand that others are legitimate concerns for Jedi and have a negative effect on template diversity...

Message Edited by BDragon on 06-27-200511:18 PM

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JimtaviusII wrote:

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Eutock wrote:

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Iwoow wrote:
WIth us jedi getting nerfed alot more of you bhs will find jedi targets that will run instantly,

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So how is this any different from what's nearly always happened in BH v Jedi? At one time it was Force Run, hiding in water,the 50k HP exploited bikes, and most recently grinding at the doorstep of your temp houses, passenger rides,and the LOS exploit on Kashyyyk. The methods change but the mindsets remain the same.

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Yea sorry about that buddy, but since paddies have nothing to gain from the fight escape at any cost is the name of the game. It is advise I give all grinding paddies. One ask me when is a good time to start fighting BH? I answer when your grind is done, before that you should always run, you have nothing to gain.

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Nathanielstarr wrote:They'll have to learn how to use stims and ruby like the rest of us have. Couple that with some actual pvp skills and jedi healing with the increased saber damage and you have one deadly jedi. So while jedi are more powerful they should still have to learn how to fight. You can do alot with good stims and ruby...believe me. Im a MBH/Mpistol/4400 rifle and I've stood up to the healer jedi but I could not for the life of me make any damage stick. You had 4000 healers with rifles being the best jedi template. Is that right? Now not that I would begrudge a jedi for using a blaster, I think it's cool....more low level jedi need to fall back on their pre jedi abilities BUT shouldn't the lightsaber actually be the weapon of choice for jedi? Shouldn't Jedi be able to kill each other in a one on one jedi duel....

Jedi used healing as a crutch....I feel that they should still have to learn how to pvp even if they are jedi.

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Yes alot of Jedi used healer as a saftey net, but you seem to be ignoring the very real issue im trying to raise here: Without defender no amount of stims will save a Jedi against a top-level krayted gun or a saber.

Im sure you dont believe me, but as a Jedi i know that anyone brave enough to go MLS/Healer is a deadman walking once this goes live. 1.2k stims and ruby biel will not save a Jedi from a Rifleman/BH/pistoleer0404. Just the maths show you that its not just a case of needing to learn PvP (which many do, i agree) but anything without defender could well become 100% not an option.

Rifleman hits non-defender for 1.5k per hit. Cycle attacks every 2 seconds using lower damaging move from different timer, avergae DPS of 1250. Jedi healing = 250 DPS, that leaves 1000 DPS. Instant stims can cover 50 DPS healing, so in a period of 30 seconds the Jedi will lose a potential of 28'500 health, or 950 per second.

Now, even as a good PvPer, explain to me how you make up for losing 1k health per second on average? KDs have a timer, guns have > range than sabers (baring throw) so a smart BH will keep you out of melee range 90% of the time. The only option a Jedi with no defender will have is to wipe out the BH very fast once they get within range. And that is the problem with the doc healing. If the BH has doc4000 you cant wipe them out quickly, even as a MLS with a perfect saber, you have to beat on a BH/doc4000 who is wearing 7k armour.

Yes the saber should be the best weapon. Yes as MLS i should be able to out-right kill another Jedi. However, a Jedi shouldnt be forced to jump all over defender just to survive. A haler Jedi should be able to use their heals as their method of survival. This is about balance and currently Jedi is not balanced, we have peopel picking things they dont want to survive and then asking for those things to be nerfed so they no longer need to pick them.

Deefender should be a choice based on play-style like it was pre-CU. When you went defender you accepted the 'kill or be killed' mentality of it. Now people are picking it up as FOTM and other templates that dont include defender are being blown clean away by BH.

Message Edited by BDragon on 06-27-2005 11:46 PM

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Giles025 wrote:

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tHeRaBiDmOnKeY wrote:

no, it was the bounty hunters who complained that they sometimes lost to a padawan because he could heal. Now that heals have a 6 second cooldown, you will start to see many jedi getting doc 4/x/x/x instead of healer 4/x/x/x.

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I'm a bit confused... shouldn't a class that is entirely focused on healing (doc)heal better than a class that's more focused on combat (Jedi)?

Also, in the movies I didn't see Obi-Wan or Yoda putting Anakin's arm back on using the force.

Message Edited by Giles025 on 06-25-2005 06:21 PM

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Entirely focused on healing?!? Excuse me, but I have never seen a template that holds ONLY doctor. It is an unreasonable comparison, since most doctors can dish out damage with the combat side of their template. Whether it be swords, rifles, pistols or whatever. Granted, there ARE some doctors who have a crafting template or perhaps a dancer template, but they are extremely rare (I, atleast, know no one with this template). No, doctors are just as combat oriented as jedi. And you generalize ALL jedi by taking them as a whole. What about a master healer/master swords. Does he not focus on healing? Yet he cannot "out-heal" a doctor. And if that doctor is also a rifleman, he can't out-damage him either.

As for putting arms back on: Did you ever see a doctor do that? Refering SWG abillities to the movies is pointless. Would be like saying there should only be X number of BH's since you only saw X BH's in the movies. It's a silly point.

The funny thing about all of this is that the jedi heal nerf isnt really going to affect the people that the BH whiners (this is targetting not all BHers, just those that cry nerf on a daily basis) are crying about, its going to hurt the Jedi who are the 'softer' targets

This nerf will only slightly affect the master defender templates. They still have the same defense mods, in fact they will also have force armor stacked with their force aura and valor as force armor is getting beefed up in pub 19

Unfortunately for a lot of jedi without defender templates, it will mean respeccing to a master defender template just to remain slightly competetive because any template that doesnt have any defender in it will get cut to pieces by any kind of ranged profession at all and no chance to keep healed.

All I can say is expect to see even more templates with mdefender xxx4 enhancer in it and have fun trying to break through the defense. And if you do manage that, i hope you have your running shoes on

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Tapa wrote:

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Nathanielstarr wrote:

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JimtaviusII wrote:

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Eutock wrote:

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Iwoow wrote:
WIth us jedi getting nerfed alot more of you bhs will find jedi targets that will run instantly,

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So how is this any different from what's nearly always happened in BH v Jedi? At one time it was Force Run, hiding in water,the 50k HP exploited bikes, and most recently grinding at the doorstep of your temp houses, passenger rides,and the LOS exploit on Kashyyyk. The methods change but the mindsets remain the same.

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Yea sorry about that buddy, but since paddies have nothing to gain from the fight escape at any cost is the name of the game. It is advise I give all grinding paddies. One ask me when is a good time to start fighting BH? I answer when your grind is done, before that you should always run, you have nothing to gain.

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Yeah they can run but jumping intoyourhouse that you place next to each lair AFTER attacking the bounty hunter back hardly makes you deserving of being a jedi.

Jedi have almost completely found ways around the hardships that jedi are supposed to face. Either they got the Devs to make it easier or used exploits or houses to get around it. Once this happens the nerfs will happen. I think soon due to this reason and for the health of the game a finished jedi template will only be another combat profession with all additional strength lying in the FRS system. As soon as they can find a way not exploitable by Jedi

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Can we find a way where a BH can't exploit roots a single bh cannot exploit roots and they are planning on making the system one on one, cant outdamage as it stands only the most damaging profession can outdamage jedi but that is certainly going to be a much narrower margin and outheal a full-templated Jedi only after the patch will healer professions be able to out heal a jedi and shouldn't a doctor be able to heal the best?, cant buy better defenses than a non-defender but not better than a defender, cant get 5 players to hunt a 100K Jedi, can't trapa Jedi in their home demanding cash or be camped, ever heard of logging? cant simply /target self; /image; /respec to a template stronger than one I worked a year and a half on what stronger template and the respec is over for most of us, cant buy a gun for 5K that is stronger than a saber I spent millions on in parts 5k? hardly. You could spend 50k on a decent rifle with higher damage (lightsabers have the lowest min damage btw so defenses affect lightsabers less) with slower speeds and much highers SAC, cant harrass the same Jedi over and over and over again, etc. they want to change that with nameless missions and one on one fights. But if you want that you have to be balanced.

You have to be willing to do the hard time to be stronger, but it turns out that the vast majority of jedi are not willing....sooo they will become weaker. If you want to grind in peace on kashyyyk you aren't working as hard, hell half of you are doing it afk now, then you should be weaker. If it was so hard then there wouldn't be what I venture to say is thousands of jedi in the game. I would guess that at least 1 out of 4 players is a jedi and ALL of them will finish their template. Its just a few weeks of afk grinding away.

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Nathanielstarr wrote:

Can we find a way where a BH can't exploit roots a single bh cannot exploit roots and they are planning on making the system one on one

Just because your template does not have two roots doesnt mean all do! Who says they are planning it, show me the test center notes

cant outdamage as it stands only the most damaging profession can outdamage jedi but that is certainly going to be a much narrower margin

Where is this data coming from, they would have to increase sabers 50% to catch up with what rifles do now.

and outheal a full-templated Jedi only after the patch will healer professions be able to out heal a jedi and shouldn't a doctor be able to heal the best?

No, I see no reason why someone that dedicated themselves to healing, should be more or less powerful then another. Actually jedi healer uses more skillpoints so should be a little better(more sp = more knowledge)

, cant buy better defenses than a non-defender but not better than a defender

Not all jedi are master defenders, just like all BH's dont have 2 root shots.

, cant get 5 players to hunt a 100K Jedi, can't trapa Jedi in their home demanding cash or be camped, ever heard of logging?

So If a BH comes after you, you can always stop playing...excelent argument...moron

cant simply /target self; /image; /respec to a template stronger than one I worked a year and a half on what stronger template and the respec is over for most of us

Example of a strongertemplate would be BH/Rifle/cm4000 - after patch

, cant buy a gun for 5K that is stronger than a saber I spent millions on in parts 5k? hardly. You could spend 50k on a decent rifle with higher damage (lightsabers have the lowest min damage btw so defenses affect lightsabers less) with slower speeds and much highers SAC

Premium pearls go for about 7 million each on my server..lvl4 saber takes 4...unless you can show me your 28 million dollar rifle then you can concede the point that sabers cost more for less dammage, slower speed and higher sac.

, cant harrass the same Jedi over and over and over again, etc. they want to change that with nameless missions and one on one fights. But if you want that you have to be balanced.

Want to change it...but not in next patch, they are making Jedi weaker first

You have to be willing to do the hard time to be stronger, but it turns out that the vast majority of jedi are not willing....sooo they will become weaker. If you want to grind in peace on kashyyyk you aren't working as hard, hell half of you are doing it afk now, then you should be weaker. If it was so hard then there wouldn't be what I venture to say is thousands of jedi in the game. I would guess that at least 1 out of 4 players is a jedi and ALL of them will finish their template. Its just a few weeks of afk grinding away.

Just because you dont hunt on kash does not mean a Jedi there has no risk, read your boards, there are posts everywhere about how BH's are making a living off of kash. With Double xp I made 2.2 million Jedi xp over the weekend(grinding in a group so I have max vis) that does not get me one tree or less than 1/10 of Jedi grind, If I was grinding anyother profession I would have mastered it, that means I am working atleast 10x longer than you, and that is only if I group and have to deal with BH's. If all Jedi are afk grinding and you still cant kill them quit the game, you suck.

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Nathanielstarr wrote:

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diepa wrote:

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Nathanielstarr wrote:

So let me get this straight.....jedi feel that healing should not change because it's all that keeps low level jedi alive against multiple bounty hunters? Low level against multiple? Why should a low level jedi survive against multiple bounty hunters? Where does that put high level jedi at? Don't high level jedi complain about never getting hunted? They want more damage AND keep the healing the same? Really? I know jedi are unrealistic but even they can see the trade off is necessary, right? I've seen jedi fight each other for an hour straight with no winner just hit hit hit heal heal hit hit heal over and over until they finally gave up. Is that how it should be? Honestly...

I'm thinking that jedi will be even stronger really, but you might actually have to learn how to fight.

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no, it the only thing that keeps low level alive vs 1!!!

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Refers you to the waypoint in your signature. Ruby and stims....try it sometime.

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I do a$$hole, guess what as a bh/rifleman/cm4000 I can now out heal a force heal 4000 and I can use the same ruby and stims, with the patch it just becomes more unbalanced in the direction of the CM.

sabers need more damage imo. before you roll your eyes and say omg ill give you a 'for instance' and you can share yours if you feel the need.

for instance: 4 MLS jedi grinding on kashyyyk, dunno about them but i have what is considered a good lightsaber. we are fighting wookiees when a single bh/rifle comes and OUTDAMAGES all of us. he single-handedly steals kills from 4 CL80 jedi.

this is why i'd like to see sabers doing at least a little more damage.

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JimtaviusII wrote:

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Eutock wrote:

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Iwoow wrote:
WIth us jedi getting nerfed alot more of you bhs will find jedi targets that will run instantly,

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So how is this any different from what's nearly always happened in BH v Jedi? At one time it was Force Run, hiding in water,the 50k HP exploited bikes, and most recently grinding at the doorstep of your temp houses, passenger rides,and the LOS exploit on Kashyyyk. The methods change but the mindsets remain the same.

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Yea sorry about that buddy, but since paddies have nothing to gain from the fight escape at any cost is the name of the game. It is advise I give all grinding paddies. One ask me when is a good time to start fighting BH? I answer when your grind is done, before that you should always run, you have nothing to gain.

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Message Edited by Eutock on 06-28-2005 06:54 PM