Bounty Hunter Archive
Thread: Dev Comments at FanFest Regarding BH/Jedi Missions My Response
Done.
Caelrie wrote:
EldosAirheart wrote:
Caelrie wrote:
I disagree. The dev stated that your side of the advantage is your first strike ability. I agree with him. I don't think there's any way at all the devs will make you equal in power to a Jedi while you have no penalties, a short grind, no unlocking process AND your first strike ability.
Tanks wrote:
If Jedi vs BH is going to be 1 vs 1, one of two things will have to happen. Either Jedi overall effectiveness will have to get reduced or BH effectiveness will have to increase. I prefer not to reduce Jedi effectiveness as it has negative PvE and PvP implications for the Jedi. As far as how much BH effectiveness increase is balanced? Well, that is what discussions and negotiations with the devs is all about. I am not going to negotiate against myself in the public forums though.
I see where your coming from, less work = less power, but... If we are going to have to go 1v1 on Jedi, I believe we should get some kind of increase in power. How about giving us a X percent bonus to our damage on our first strike?
What penalty are you willing to take for this power? I don't think you should get it for free. I pay dearly for MY power.
Having said that i think there should be no limmit at all on how many BH's can take the mission form the terminal at the same time ( to prevent Jedi alts BH's or friendly BH's to sit on the Jedi's mission ) but the number of BH's that attack at the same time should be based on the Jedi's points spent in Jedi skills. Once the ammount of BH's that are allowed to attack the Jedi at the same time engage every other BH with this mission gets lockedout of being able to attack this Jedi for 1 Hour. ( to prevent other BH(s)waiting for the initial BH(s)to fail and then killing the target easely without the Jedi having a chance to regen or go hide )
For example:
up 69k = 1 BH can attack the Jedi
70 to 109k = 2 BH's can attack the Jedi at the same time
1110 to 169k = 3 BH's can attack the Jedi at the same time
170 to 226k = 4 BH's can attack the Jedi at the same time
FRS rank 1 to ~ = 5 Bh's can attack the Jedi at the same time
There would have to be a working TEF lockdown once the ammount of BH's able to attack at the same time attack the target.
And yes i completely agree that the BH/Jedi TEF system is completly FUBAR atm. Once a Jedi fights back he should not be able to go into a house or cantina or whatever while the BH can not do this, it's not right and should be fixed.
I feel if a system like this was in place the Terminals could be made more user friendly. BH terminals are a pain right now imho. There could be a seperate tab for PC and NPC missions for example.
I don't know if this whole thing could work, but it's just something that came into my head lol
EldosAirheart wrote:
Done.
Caelrie wrote:
EldosAirheart wrote:
I see where your coming from, less work = less power, but... If we are going to have to go 1v1 on Jedi, I believe we should get some kind of increase in power. How about giving us a X percent bonus to our damage on our first strike?
What penalty are you willing to take for this power? I don't think you should get it for free. I pay dearly for MY power.
Caelrie wrote:
I disagree. The dev stated that your side of the advantage is your first strike ability. I agree with him. I don't think there's any way at all the devs will make you equal in power to a Jedi while you have no penalties, a short grind, no unlocking process AND your first strike ability.
Tanks wrote:
First, we would not be equal to Jedi in power, as the bonuses against the Jedi would take effect only during an active BH mission (same code that locks people out would enable the bonuses).
Secondly, you yourself have bragged on these forums that you have killed over 100 BHs while grinding. How much did that first strike help them? The only way a BH is going to beat a full template Jedi is if the Jedi lets him by either letting the BH wear his force pool down, or he is a clueless respec Jedi that trained bunch of novice boxes to get to full template.
I'd agree here. In a long fight like that, either party can disengage. There's too much healing on both sides. There's too much direct or indirect mitigation on both sides. It's not right that I can take 30 sniper shots to the head and laugh. It's not right that you can stay out of my range with chained roots and KDs with a mind pool that regenerates fast enough to heal indefinitely vs my damage.
People have mentioned beating a full template Jedi in 15-45 minutes of fighting. Well, that means the Jedi did not take the opportunity to leave and hung around to lose. I can see a template mismatch where a full template Jedi might not win, but that template also gives the Jedi a lot of tools so he does not have to lose either. Think MSNil's template of Master Healer/Master Enhancer/0404LS with a crappy saber. No, she might not be able to outdamege a BH/Rifle/CM4000 but with Sap + Statis + FR3 + Supression etc., etc., she has a lot of options to control the engagement, and NOT lose.
Message Edited by Caelrie on 06-15-2005 07:07 PM
That's why I don't think one vs one is viable.
Bastilaa wrote:
Come on Tanks you get first shot thats a massive advantage you know it is, to ask what your asking is unreasonable and tips the scales way into the BH side of the equation, First Strike, massive damage boostm choice of when to attack. A BH skill comes from knowing when to attack and what his preys weakness is. You are asking for easy money, that 225k bounty you took requires you to work for it, hence it being 225k.
First, you do not know your bounty amount or the Jedi, so how will you know the weakness. Secondly, tactics differ between Padawans and Knights. On a Padawan you want to prevent running and kill him. On a Knight, assuming he takes the engagement (and I don't see why not) you are going for winning by attrition.
The simple fact is you have 2 classes facing off one is stronger than the other becuase of its stature in the SW universe. A Jedi Knight is stronger than a BH, but a BH is supposed to use skill to defeat his foe.
Well, I have no problems about Jedi being an Alpha class. But, if that is the case then BHs should not be forced to face such a foe 1 vs 1 without gaining skills as you say it to give them a close to even chance.
Tanks wrote:
That's why I don't think one vs one is viable.
I often state what that dev said about the situation, but the truth is that I don't really like the 1v1 idea either. I also don't like BHs getting on the terminals.
The only challenge I get from BHs is from a team. And for stated reasons I feel you don't deserve the power of a Jedi. The obvious conclusion for me is to oppose the 1v1 idea.
I'm not asking for the same amout of power of a fully templated Jedi. I am simply asking for some kind of bonus for hunting a Jedi Knight. I admit, in most cases, a BH should not be able to take down a Jedi Knight, in MOST cases. And that goes that same way for Padawans. Jedi Padawan's should stand no chance against a Master Bounty Hunter. In fact, a Bounty Hunter should tear through a Padawan because Padawans are still learning. Some can'taccept this becasue many feel like they should be the hero or the best.People just have to remember we aren't Boba, Luke, Vadar, etc.
Caelrie wrote:
EldosAirheart wrote:
Done.
Caelrie wrote:
EldosAirheart wrote:
I see where your coming from, less work = less power, but... If we are going to have to go 1v1 on Jedi, I believe we should get some kind of increase in power. How about giving us a X percent bonus to our damage on our first strike?
What penalty are you willing to take for this power? I don't think you should get it for free. I pay dearly for MY power.
Not good enough. I already pay that penalty myself. My friends can't help me. And yet I pay 10x more penalties for my power. Further, if you were granted equal power to a full template Jedi (and i know you guys will ask for equal power to a master when the FRS is turned on) AND kept your first strike, you would be many times more powerful than any Jedi.
I don't think this petition has much of a chance. I feel that the typical bounty hunter is supposed to go after padawans. Knights are reserved for the elite of your profession, the ones with the patience and skill to catch to a Jedi at a time when she can be killed solo. And from what that dev at Fanfaire said, this is how he feels as well.
He was very clear about the fact that he felt a BH should already be able to take any Jedi 1v1 if he had any skill. It's all about that first strike ability.
Message Edited by EldosAirheart on 06-15-2005 09:14 PM
Tanks wrote:
Caelrie wrote:
I disagree. The dev stated that your side of the advantage is your first strike ability. I agree with him. I don't think there's any way at all the devs will make you equal in power to a Jedi while you have no penalties, a short grind, no unlocking process AND your first strike ability.
First, we would not be equal to Jedi in power, as the bonuses against the Jedi would take effect only during an active BH mission (same code that locks people out would enable the bonuses).
[How much of this forum, though, is Jedi related discussion. Many BH's said they exclusively hunt Jedi. Not much of a downside for them there and they're running their bonuses most of their game time. That's an almost 100% full time increase in power.]
Secondly, you yourself have bragged on these forums that you have killed over 100 BHs while grinding. How much did that first strike help them? The only way a BH is going to beat a full template Jedi is if the Jedi lets him by either letting the BH wear his force pool down, or he is a clueless respec Jedi that trained bunch of novice boxes to get to full template.
[The counter to that is the BH's that brag about having 100's of kills. If anecdotal evidence is acceptable, I'd say that the sheer number of BH's making such a claim outweigh that of one Jedi.]
People have mentioned beating a full template Jedi in 15-45 minutes of fighting. Well, that means the Jedi did not take the opportunity to leave and hung around to lose. I can see a template mismatch where a full template Jedi might not win, but that template also gives the Jedi a lot of tools so he does not have to lose either. Think MSNil's template of Master Healer/Master Enhancer/0404LS with a crappy saber. No, she might not be able to outdamege a BH/Rifle/CM4000 but with Sap + Statis + FR3 + Supression etc., etc., she has a lot of options to control the engagement, and NOT lose.
[Wasn't the intention though for templated Jedi to be 1.5 x as any other character? I would say a person who solo's a templated Jedi is lucky to have done so at all. And a fully templated Jedi both really shouldn't have to run, and has no reason to run. That said, I'm with the idea of a sliding damage based on the skillpoint totals for the Jedi target. Not too sure that 50% is a good number, but I see where that's coming from.]
Tanks wrote:
topfuel wrote:
My input is that these are far from the most important issues in the BH/Jedi system. The biggest issues are the exploits that have apparently been used on both sides throughout the game.
You are missing the point. First, look at our Top issues, some exploits are listed there for the fix. Next, and most important is that the devs have indicated a direction that they'd like to go in regards to BH bounties. So, I have to respond to it, otherwise we will see an implementation on patch notes one of these days, and we would have had no input into the process.
Now, they know our view in regards to this.
No Tanks, I really don't think I missed any points.
First, just so you don't think this is me flaming or just trying to be a jerk: I've read alot of your posts and I think that you do a great job. You seem to do a good job of indicating problem issues and making note of them. I understand that there isn't alot beyond that that is in your control.
My point is that we can't just sweep the old problems under the rug and just move on to new gizmos that will hopefully make everyone forget about the original complaints. You listed them and gave them to the DEVs, that is what you do right? But then they give non-answers and want to talk about these new ideas. Most of us are far more concerned with the old problems.
I read the Top Issues post. There is one exploit mentioned. The TEF, and the DEVs gave another non-answer.
"Devs acknowledged at FanFest that there should be a 5 min. TEF and did mention that it would be corrected (No timeline though)"
To me that just says "Yeah, sure we'll fix it....someday but before we stop Jedi from cheating you and thus purposefully ruining your gaming experience (which is supposed to be a bannable offense) we need to make sure that you guys don't slow any of them down on their way to JM...but Jedi should be rare.".
/offerride is hardly a serious exploit unless you are talking the macro spam to block someone's screen. Last I checked I can still KD someone right out of their little buddies car. At least we can fight against that.
So basically there was 1 of the several exploits I mentioned listed in the top issues. These are just the ones everone knows about too.
What I'm saying is that if these "improvements" come before the exploits are fixed, what good are they? I know they won't give you any straight answers on time frames or any of that but I for one would at least like to see how they are prioritizing all of these upcoming patches...Like are they actually working on the TEF and the other exploits or is this issue more important?
If this thread is more like a "down the road in a few months we may be fixing the BH/Jedi system but we are still concentrating on the core issues such as keeping gameplay fair" kind of thing, then maybe I am missing the point but these new FanFest ideas are seeming very imminent to me now.
Like I said, I'm not even trying to argue here. That is pointless, but I pay for this game and want to see it as great as I know that it can be so I am going to make my points and try to remain constructive about itregardless of who agrees/disagrees.
As of now, you are our only form of contact to the DEVs so I post this all to you. Not at you.
Tanks wrote:
That's why I don't think one vs one is viable.
Bastilaa wrote:
Come on Tanks you get first shot thats a massive advantage you know it is, to ask what your asking is unreasonable and tips the scales way into the BH side of the equation, First Strike, massive damage boostm choice of when to attack. A BH skill comes from knowing when to attack and what his preys weakness is. You are asking for easy money, that 225k bounty you took requires you to work for it, hence it being 225k.
First, you do not know your bounty amount or the Jedi, so how will you know the weakness. Secondly, tactics differ between Padawans and Knights. On a Padawan you want to prevent running and kill him. On a Knight, assuming he takes the engagement (and I don't see why not) you are going for winning by attrition.
The simple fact is you have 2 classes facing off one is stronger than the other becuase of its stature in the SW universe. A Jedi Knight is stronger than a BH, but a BH is supposed to use skill to defeat his foe.
Well, I have no problems about Jedi being an Alpha class. But, if that is the case then BHs should not be forced to face such a foe 1 vs 1 without gaining skills as you say it to give them a close to even chance.
Well taking a bounty is not simply pop a droid find target attack, its find target, watch target,study target, find weakness then attack when they are at there weak point. This seems to have been long forgotten, and that is a shame. The ART of being a BH is targeting your foes weakness, that comes from watching a Jedi, maybe they need to give you an option to hold 3 different Jedi missions so you can study your target take notes and come back another time, but still have a target you can persue.
We could go around all day and all night on this, we just see it from different perspectives, I have support a lot of what you have asked from in BH vs Jedi but this I cant support you on
Tanks wrote:
A Jedi can heal when KDed.
imperialreign wrote:
A well designed BH can take a jedi knight. It is slow but not hard.
Remember a jedi cannot heal knocked down and you can take advantage to this...