Bounty Hunter Archive
Thread: The official reason BH TEF's where removed
My only point that I stressed in another thread was please don't kick sand in the face of a person that is down.
Pussycat I feel that you are doing just that. We Bounty Hunters are upset, upset with the fact that a portion of the game we hold dear is going away. To have you throw salt in the wound IS going to cause problems. If I am wrong please respond by telling your opinion as it relates to being upset over the changes; otherwise, the content of your messages is neither warranted or welcome. I completely understand where you are coming from in respect to Ferngully's post , in that it takes time away from YOUR gaming experience. THAT, and THAT alone is a valid point. To say that it's the hatred or "I pwned joo" is simply childish behavior and more than likely not initiated by older, veteran players. I really dislike being associated with those players. So please, don't generalize and stereotype all BH vs Jedi rivalries.
It's not that I dont see your point, I do, I just ask that when a man is down, leave him be. Let him vent if necessary. No need to spur more arguing.
I dont know where you guys get off about bounty hunter's content being removed...I'm more upset about my bounty hunter attacks being taken away!
BH were my content!!! Even if I lost occasionally to the good ones who caught me off guard. Then its /props to them.
Should I dig up all of the exploits that Jedi used to get ahead in the game? I have posted it many times before with a huge list that far exceeds that of what BH have done. Let me find it...
Let's see....
First, The Exploits:
I know there are more... but you get the point. There is plenty of reason for people to complain and "whine" about Jedi. A lot of the exploits affected more than just BH. Jedi are always finding an exploit and some way to get around the few drawbacks that Jedi have.
Second, Inconvenience of Jedi:
In general, a LOT of people feel that Jedi have ruined this game. There really is just too many of them. A lot of people don't think it's fair that just because they do not want to be a Jedi, they seem to be punished for it. Many Jedi like to try to point the finger and say these people are just jealous of their power when in actuality... that power is grossly overpowered and should be toned down due to the vast number of Jedi. If Jedi were few, then I agree to their need for great power. But when a server of 1500 subscribers has 750 or more Jedi on it... there is a problem.
ShaikeRamjet wrote:
Should I dig up all of the exploits that Jedi used to get ahead in the game? I have posted it many times before with a huge list that far exceeds that of what BH have done. Let me find it...
Let's see....
First, The Exploits:
Jedi have used an exploit to mess up BH droids by logging off and then back on. PRE-CU
Jedi have used exploits to over power their sabers by stack crystals and pearls... not once but twice now. PRE/POST-CU
Jedi have used an exploit using the /duel command in order to see if a BH has thier mission. PRE-CU
Jedi have used the exploit of attacking while cloaked. POST-CU
Jedi have used an exploit that allowed them to take advantage of a broken TEF system allowing them to run inside house while in combat with the BH. POST-CU
Jedi have used the exploit of using bugged battlefields to avoid combat with BH. PRE-CU
Jedi have used the exploit of /offerRide and /acceptRide from 32m away in order to escape combat. POST-CU
Jedi have used an exploit of using 2 attacks simultaneously in order to hit twice in a single action. POST-CU
Jedi have exploited the Respec in order to train a bunch of low level boxes so that they could just respec 12 hours later to the high level boxes in order to circumvent the higher XP requirements. POST-CU
Jedi have used the LOS exploit on the Rryyat Trails in order to avoid combat from BH. POST-CU
Jedi have used an exploit allowing them to DB themselves in order to not lose XP from a BH. POST-CU
I know there are more... but you get the point. There is plenty of reason for people to complain and "whine" about Jedi. A lot of the exploits affected more than just BH. Jedi are always finding an exploit and some way to get around the few drawbacks that Jedi have.
Second, Inconvenience of Jedi:
Many people feel that Jedi are too great in number. MAINLY POST-CU
Many people feel that the Jedi profession has ruined the GCW because of their numbers. LITTLE POST 9 MAINLY POST-CU
Many people feel that because of their numbers, Jedi are too powerful. DEF PRE-CU
Many people feel that Jedi are an alpha class and do not have a place in a game with 32 other professions unless their power is greatly reduced in order to maintain a balance for ALL professions. POST-CU
In general, a LOT of people feel that Jedi have ruined this game. There really is just too many of them. A lot of people don't think it's fair that just because they do not want to be a Jedi, they seem to be punished for it. Many Jedi like to try to point the finger and say these people are just jealous of their power when in actuality... that power is grossly overpowered and should be toned down due to the vast number of Jedi. If Jedi were few, then I agree to their need for great power. But when a server of 1500 subscribers has 750 or more Jedi on it... there is a problem.
bottom line, forced pvp is gone. jedi missions are gone. the why realy doesn't matter at this point. the original design of the game made too many assumptions about the maturity level of the players. all the arguing and finger pointing you do here just demonstrates what a colosal failure the bountie / xp loss system was.
but please, continue your ranting and fighting. i find it most amusing.
Well most Villiage People / respec jediI dont give much respect as a jedi unless they earn it. The majority went and found exploits so they didnt have to be involved in the profession's mechanics because they just one day decided pvp shouldn't be part of the class.
ShaikeRamjet wrote:
This wasn't meant as a jab at the Jedi profession. This was an old post of mine that I copied and pasted here for the sole purpose of showing that exploits occured on both sides of the fence, not just BH like pussycat is trying to imply. This list will probably still piss of a few Jedi, but it was only rehashed for her.
Once again, you are mistaken... I did not "try to imply" that exploits were limited to any one profession. If you had read more carefully, you'd have noticed that the main point I was making was not that BH's exploited. The point was that BH's could come in here and gloat about both *exploits and griefing*, and that this could be considered to be more acceptable than the simple opinion of players who simply disagree with the old (and outdated) system of player bounties.
You seem to think that my basic premise is something as simple as "BH'S are bad, Jedi are good", and that is absolutely not true. There were certainly a number of powers and skills spread across many professions that lent themselves to abuse by those who wanted to be "uber" and "pwn" people. When these powers where widely misused, it resulted in nerfs which obviously affected not only those who had abused the skills in question, but also those who had no intention to misuse them or to run all over the place "pwning" people. That is a big part of the reason that I think pvp should have always been fully consensual... if there were players out there who might conceivable misuse their powers just to grief people, or to gain an unfair advantage, then surely you should have had the freedom to opt out of all pvp or take the risk that someone would use exploits or power differential to your disadvantage. Therefore, anyone who could be subject to pvp that was started by other parties *should* have had an option to opt-out, even if this carried some penalty, such as having to opt out of all pvp across the board. Had this happened, the calls to nerf this and nerf that (and this is not limited to any one profession) would have been, in all likelyhood, minimal. Not only that, but game mechanisms that could lead to pvp, such as GCW missions or the Jedi profession, would not have been questioned like they were, as nobody would have been forced to anything that they did not want. What was lost was a great opportunity to create a system that allowed everyone to determine the gamestyle that best suited them, and in so doing, greatly eliminating the possibility of animosity and/or hostility due to the clash of different game styles (such as pvp'ers and those who prefer pve).
In the end... almost everyone lost. A lot of people spent a lot of time pursuing something that was far more ephemeral than they could have forseen. Others pursued game mechanics with such glee as to virtually guarantee the self-destruction of said game mechanic. What is left of the game after Nov. 15th will be largely the result of the actions of many people who, having lost much of what aroused their gaming interest, are even more likely to leave SWG altogether. And when that happens, it is going to be left to us -- the ones who never cared to be "uber", to "pwn" people, or to be PVP superstars -- to try to carry forth the good things that came about when this online community was first created, things that we enjoyed all too briefly in the good old days before the dark times... before the hologrind, and everything that followed.
I honestly hope you can understand what I'm trying to say here... and how deeply I regret that due to any number of reasons, the game as we knew it never lived up to its full potential.
Look, you came in here calling us neanderthals and idiotic. You bashed people personally in here in this thread because they didn't see it your way. You sit here and imply that BH were the main ones grieving and exploiting. People from your own profession are in here telling you that you were wrong about the original intent of Jedi.
The FRS was put in exclusively for Jedi. After a certain point, you were forced to PvP in order to ascend to being a stronger Jedi. BH bounties were put in to make the game harder for those that chose to become a Jedi. Perma-death was originally put in for Jedi to keep them in hiding and to make it harder for them intentionally because of their power. The Jedi knew before they became Jedi that they would be targets in PvP and they would be hunted by BH BEFORE they became Jedi.
There have always been choices for you to not be "forced" into PvP. First and foremost, if you didn't want it, you shouldn't have been Jedi. Secondly, if you didn't want to be hunted, you don't get visibility. Over the last 2 years, people like you cried that it wasn't fair. You wanted the power to waltz through the PvE game without the drawbacks.
Because of people like you, perma-death was removed and XP loss was instated. Then, Xp loss to BH deaths only were instated because that wasn't enough. Names were removed from the terminals because you guys felt like you were being grieved if you were hunted more than once in a week, forget the fact that it was a choice by you because you were getting visibility. Then visibilty was removed from being in a group. Which meant now everyone could be Jedi and not have to stay hidden or secluded like they should have been. If you wanted to do some of the content in game and you didn't want visibility on your Jedi, your second character slot was there for a reason.
You come here and point the finger and attack people for what they know to be true while dodging the truth yourself. You know that Jedi was a PvP class when you became one. All of the evidence points to it. The fact that you were Perma-overt at Knight was a big hint. But your going to argue regardless, even when other Jedi are coming in here and telling you that you are dead wrong. Now, I laugh at you. I laugh because what I always wanted for Jedi has happened. If there was going to be so many Jedi, then they needed to reduce them to a starter profession and drop their power. It has happenned. Have fun with your new game, the one that the carebears created.
Forced PvP.... pffft. You always had the choice. You chose to be put on the boards and then cry about it.
ShaikeRamjet wrote:
Look, you came in here calling us neanderthals and idiotic. You bashed people personally in here in this thread because they didn't see it your way. You sit here and imply that BH were the main ones grieving and exploiting. People from your own profession are in here telling you that you were wrong about the original intent of Jedi.
The FRS was put in exclusively for Jedi. After a certain point, you were forced to PvP in order to ascend to being a stronger Jedi. BH bounties were put in to make the game harder for those that chose to become a Jedi. Perma-death was originally put in for Jedi to keep them in hiding and to make it harder for them intentionally because of their power. The Jedi knew before they became Jedi that they would be targets in PvP and they would be hunted by BH BEFORE they became Jedi.
There have always been choices for you to not be "forced" into PvP. First and foremost, if you didn't want it, you shouldn't have been Jedi. Secondly, if you didn't want to be hunted, you don't get visibility. Over the last 2 years, people like you cried that it wasn't fair. You wanted the power to waltz through the PvE game without the drawbacks.
Because of people like you, perma-death was removed and XP loss was instated. Then, Xp loss to BH deaths only were instated because that wasn't enough. Names were removed from the terminals because you guys felt like you were being grieved if you were hunted more than once in a week, forget the fact that it was a choice by you because you were getting visibility. Then visibilty was removed from being in a group. Which meant now everyone could be Jedi and not have to stay hidden or secluded like they should have been. If you wanted to do some of the content in game and you didn't want visibility on your Jedi, your second character slot was there for a reason.
You come here and point the finger and attack people for what they know to be true while dodging the truth yourself. You know that Jedi was a PvP class when you became one. All of the evidence points to it. The fact that you were Perma-overt at Knight was a big hint. But your going to argue regardless, even when other Jedi are coming in here and telling you that you are dead wrong. Now, I laugh at you. I laugh because what I always wanted for Jedi has happened. If there was going to be so many Jedi, then they needed to reduce them to a starter profession and drop their power. It has happenned. Have fun with your new game, the one that the carebears created.
Forced PvP.... pffft. You always had the choice. You chose to be put on the boards and then cry about it.
QFE
pussycat wrote:
ShaikeRamjet wrote:
If this is a show of the WRA's personal vendetta towards me, then NeXuS will have a field day with you guys until the NGE.
Shaike, there is no vendetta against you and there never was. You were the one who broke your word that you would not hunt your former guildmates after you went Imperial. I would hope for a little bit more maturity on your part, I cannot believe that your male ego is so fragile that even a little disagreement on the game forums is enough for you to call on your whole guild to help you hunt down your former guildmates.
Oh and for the record, everything that I have said here has been on a personal basis... my stated beliefs do not in any way whatsoever reflect the opinions of any other players. So come after me if your fragile male ego cannot handle a simple difference of opinions. It'll only go to show how weak and insecure you really are.
Message Edited by pussycat on 11-07-2005 10:43 PM
After you talk to Raspo, I will be expecting a full public apology. Slander and personal attacks against my integrity is against the EULA by the way. You come here gloating and acting like a martyr because you "used to be a BH" is kind of showing exactly what type of person you are. Raspo said it best when he said that you are a completely different person here than in game. Raspo came here to read the thread.
First off, Raspo and I had an agreement set by him that I could hunt him any time. The agreement went outside of the "deal" that you talk about. Secondly, the deal was off when I left the WRA and it was stated on the WRA forums. However, Raspo is still the only WRA member I have hunted. I have dropped countless WRA missions, trust me.
All of this can be validated by Raspo. All you have to do is ask him. You sit here and question my maturity? If you weren't here to start **edit**, you wouldn't be posting. How about you start showing some maturity. I guess maturity in your eyes is slandering and personally attacking someone because of their gender or ideals. I see how it is.
Why don't you cloak and FR3 back to your side of the fence. It has been stated by numerous BH that you are unwelcome here and you have already been reported numerous times.Now you have been reported to your guild. Yeah, that's right, I still have friends there.
ShaikeRamjet wrote:Look, you came in here calling us neanderthals and idiotic. You bashed people personally in here in this thread because they didn't see it your way. You sit here and imply that BH were the main ones grieving and exploiting. People from your own profession are in here telling you that you were wrong about the original intent of Jedi.
The FRS was put in exclusively for Jedi. After a certain point, you were forced to PvP in order to ascend to being a stronger Jedi. BH bounties were put in to make the game harder for those that chose to become a Jedi. Perma-death was originally put in for Jedi to keep them in hiding and to make it harder for them intentionally because of their power. The Jedi knew before they became Jedi that they would be targets in PvP and they would be hunted by BH BEFORE they became Jedi.
There have always been choices for you to not be "forced" into PvP. First and foremost, if you didn't want it, you shouldn't have been Jedi. Secondly, if you didn't want to be hunted, you don't get visibility. Over the last 2 years, people like you cried that it wasn't fair. You wanted the power to waltz through the PvE game without the drawbacks.
Because of people like you, perma-death was removed and XP loss was instated. Then, Xp loss to BH deaths only were instated because that wasn't enough. Names were removed from the terminals because you guys felt like you were being grieved if you were hunted more than once in a week, forget the fact that it was a choice by you because you were getting visibility. Then visibilty was removed from being in a group. Which meant now everyone could be Jedi and not have to stay hidden or secluded like they should have been. If you wanted to do some of the content in game and you didn't want visibility on your Jedi, your second character slot was there for a reason.
You come here and point the finger and attack people for what they know to be true while dodging the truth yourself. You know that Jedi was a PvP class when you became one. All of the evidence points to it. The fact that you were Perma-overt at Knight was a big hint. But your going to argue regardless, even when other Jedi are coming in here and telling you that you are dead wrong. Now, I laugh at you. I laugh because what I always wanted for Jedi has happened. If there was going to be so many Jedi, then they needed to reduce them to a starter profession and drop their power. It has happenned. Have fun with your new game, the one that the carebears created.
Forced PvP.... pffft. You always had the choice. You chose to be put on the boards and then cry about it.
Just once I wish you'd stop distorting what others say to suit your own personal agenda. I have little respect for those who used the BH profession simply to grief others, or to impose pvp on those who didn't want to pvp... but by no means do I believe even for a second that this included everyone who was a BH. In your former guild, there are some very nice players who pursued the BH profession but did not take Jedi missions... they have all of my respect and admiration. Because as I saw it, neither BH nor Jedi should ever have been professions that people pursued simply to pvp. People should have been able to choose whether or not they wanted to pvp, regardless of what combat template they had, and professions shouldn't have become simply a means to a pvp end. For the first time at last, people choosing these professions after Nov. 15th will do so because the profession is appealing and intrinsically rewarding to them, not because they want to be "uber" or go outside a spaceport and "pwn" people.
I would think by now you'd have realized that the old system was, quite simply, a failure, and that the lessons of this failure should be quite simple: don't try to force pvp on players who don't like to have pvp forced onto them -- and this lesson should be as important to the devs as to the players who employed game mechanics to engage in pvp with players who did *not* care to pvp. It was sad for me to see relationships strained and friendships destroyed as a result of disagreements over game mechanics. I'm even more saddened that even though you experienced it yourself, you'd be more interested in defending and rationalizing the old status quo than in hoping nothing like that will ever gain divide the game community.
DTQ wrote:
Jedi were the alpha class regardles of what its players thought in its dieing days, part of that specialness involved the risk of PvP that was a choice that was made. You might not have wanted any extra power, but you took it. The jedi population grew and grew and grew. With so many Jedi around the class needed nerfing, the only fair way to do it was to withdraw the risk make jedi a starter profession. Im not sure about anyoneelse but im pretty sure right after the first jedi unlocked (wasnt it a female?) there were articles and interviews (the unlock system was still unkown and people were making all sorts of guess's) and near enough right off BH missions were introduced.
Saying I wanted to be a PvE jedi is like wandering arouind Overt and complaining when attacked because that person wasnt the one you consented to combat with. Why cant I go overt and only take part in my guild event, I want selectable overt TEF.
I think it was the sheer number of Jedi which led to the nerfing of the class, NOT griefing Bounty Hunters.
And some of us never wanted Jedi to be an "alpha class", or to become associated with a gaming style that not everybody embraced. The Jedi profession was poorly implemented in many ways, and it should have been obvious since late 2003 that it couldn't possibly last. It couldn't last because a huge number of players became instantly transfixed by this hologrind and just about stopped caring about anything in the game that did not involve mastering professions as quickly as possibly and dropping them twice as promptly.
And fyi, saying that you want to be a PVE Jedi... means saying you'll fit right in after Nov. 15th.
The game would have gone from having superpowerful Jedi to having Jedi that were equal in power to other professions no matter what -- if you had never had player bounties in the game, and the risk had come purely from NPCs, the end result probably would have been pretty much the same. It was the removal of player bounties specifically that griefing BH's contributed to... making it easy to start off the game as a force-sensitive was simply the acknowledgment of the profession's popularity and SOE/LA's desire to attract more players to the game.