Bounty Hunter Archive

Message Edited by ChefRubio on 11-08-2005 11:26 AM

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ChefRubio wrote:

First off I would like to say that I will more than likely continue playing the game and enjoying it, and I know I have made several somewhat harsh posts towards

these "carebear" jedi, but I feel the class that made me want to play this game and the class that I have proudly been a member of for almost two years is

about to loose any its luster it has left in the game and in a sense, die.

The jedi grind used to be long and hard. It used to have significant consequences to death. Now its easy and hardly any consequences to visibility

comparatively. No matter how easy they made it people would still be complaining. Finally they have been given the doorway to jedi at the start of the game

through the Force Sensitive profession.

IMHO the luster of the jedi class was destroyed by people who wanted to casually game as a jedi. There are plenty of games to casually play as a jedi

where you pick up and play as a jedi, where no other classes or professions are involved. Since other classes are involved in SWG jedi must be compared

to them. Jedi, in theory, should be a superior combatant due to their training and assistance of the force, therefore an alpha class. This training should take

time and go through trials and tribulations to earn the power granted

Now in the CU2 they will be reduced to being nothing special, just an everyday ordinary class accessible to all. Jedi should be a class rewarded to the diligent

and those willing to go the distance to unlock it, and it should be rewarding. Jedi, I fear will loose what little respect it had as the class earned by the elders of

the game and by those diligent enough to go through the trials of becoming one.

I just watched Episode III the other day when it came out on DVD, and the warmth at which so much of the community is accepting jedi becoming an starter

profession has made me feel somewhat like Padme when the Sidious took over as emperor and she said,

"So this is how liberty dies...With thunderous applause."

That reference is to the fact that I feel similar to being in padme's shoes while I watch people destroy something I love, and be extatic about it.

I feel like the last part of what was keeping me, and many others, somewhat enthralled with this profession has been taken away by those who are

blind sighted as to what a Jedi truly should be: An extremely well trained, disciplined warrior whose desire is to keep peace and balance in the galaxy.

Message Edited by ChefRubio on 11-08-2005 11:26 AM

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I feel ya. Its tough to see something you worked your butt of for be given away for "free" to anyone. But I do disagree with your interpretation of why we are where we are now.

You said that you felt this thing was destroyed by casual gamers who wanted getting/being a Jedi to be easy, or at least, easier. I feel like that wasn't really the case. I think its evidenced by how many people were willing to actually go through the unsually large amount of work necessery to attain Jedi. Loads and loads of people unlocked via hologrinding, spending millions on time and resources to grind through the crafting profs. They spent hours and hours of time AFKing through entertainer professions, taking away the time they could have been using to have fun playing the game. They spent hours and hours of time grinding through the combat profs. When the method to unlock changed, people happily began grinding through the village, which also constituted a significant amount of time and effort (far beyond what was necessery to have a fully templated regular character).

These folks, me & you included, showed a committment above and beyond that of a casual gamer. And look how many Jedi we have now? I have to seriously question the notion that someone who put in that amount of effort would be responsible for spoiling the reward they got for it.

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FernGully wrote:

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ChefRubio wrote:

First off I would like to say that I will more than likely continue playing the game and enjoying it, and I know I have made several somewhat harsh posts towards

these "carebear" jedi, but I feel the class that made me want to play this game and the class that I have proudly been a member of for almost two years is

about to loose any its luster it has left in the game and in a sense, die.

The jedi grind used to be long and hard. It used to have significant consequences to death. Now its easy and hardly any consequences to visibility

comparatively. No matter how easy they made it people would still be complaining. Finally they have been given the doorway to jedi at the start of the game

through the Force Sensitive profession.

IMHO the luster of the jedi class was destroyed by people who wanted to casually game as a jedi. There are plenty of games to casually play as a jedi

where you pick up and play as a jedi, where no other classes or professions are involved. Since other classes are involved in SWG jedi must be compared

to them. Jedi, in theory, should be a superior combatant due to their training and assistance of the force, therefore an alpha class. This training should take

time and go through trials and tribulations to earn the power granted

Now in the CU2 they will be reduced to being nothing special, just an everyday ordinary class accessible to all. Jedi should be a class rewarded to the diligent

and those willing to go the distance to unlock it, and it should be rewarding. Jedi, I fear will loose what little respect it had as the class earned by the elders of

the game and by those diligent enough to go through the trials of becoming one.

I just watched Episode III the other day when it came out on DVD, and the warmth at which so much of the community is accepting jedi becoming an starter

profession has made me feel somewhat like Padme when the Sidious took over as emperor and she said,

"So this is how liberty dies...With thunderous applause."

That reference is to the fact that I feel similar to being in padme's shoes while I watch people destroy something I love, and be extatic about it.

I feel like the last part of what was keeping me, and many others, somewhat enthralled with this profession has been taken away by those who are

blind sighted as to what a Jedi truly should be: An extremely well trained, disciplined warrior whose desire is to keep peace and balance in the galaxy.

Message Edited by ChefRubio on 11-08-2005 11:26 AM

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I feel ya. Its tough to see something you worked your butt of for be given away for "free" to anyone. But I do disagree with your interpretation of why we are where we are now.

You said that you felt this thing was destroyed by casual gamers who wanted getting/being a Jedi to be easy, or at least, easier. I feel like that wasn't really the case. I think its evidenced by how many people were willing to actually go through the unsually large amount of work necessery to attain Jedi. Loads and loads of people unlocked via hologrinding, spending millions on time and resources to grind through the crafting profs. They spent hours and hours of time AFKing through entertainer professions, taking away the time they could have been using to have fun playing the game. They spent hours and hours of time grinding through the combat profs. When the method to unlock changed, people happily began grinding through the village, which also constituted a significant amount of time and effort (far beyond what was necessery to have a fully templated regular character).

These folks, me & you included, showed a committment above and beyond that of a casual gamer. And look how many Jedi we have now? I have to seriously question the notion that someone who put in that amount of effort would be responsible for spoiling the reward they got for it.

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I beg to differ with this opinion. Perhaps I may be too cynical, but what some saw as a lot of work and effort that were necessary to unlock FSCS/Jedi, I simply saw as SOE taking something that was coveted by many players and using it cruelly as a carrot to put some of us throught he biggest time sink they could possibly think of. And when I saw Creature Handlers getting the nerf bat in late 2003, I realized that there was no way I could possibly trust SOE with any "powerful" profession, because that which could so easily be given to us, could just as easily be taken away... with little or no warning... and regardless of the effort that might have gone in mastering said profession.

I think that, in hindsight, I wasn't too cynical, heck, I was more of a realist. The "powerful" profession ceased to be as powerful as it was originally, and SOE really didn't seem to think much of the effort that might have gone into it on the part of the players. As much as I would have liked to see Jedi remain super rare in the game, to be faithful to the timeline, this only raised the more difficult issue of exactly *who* of all the players who would want it should get it. Powergamers and people with a lot of spare time inherently had a huge advantage over casual players. Yes, some will say that casual players don't deserve any breaks, but I do not adhere to that point of view, both due to my belief in egalitarian ideals but also because I think that diversity is a good thing in an online community.

Yes, Jedi involved the longest grind in the game... but was it really this way because being a Jedi should carry a "price", if you will... or was it because SOE wanted to throw as many time sinks as possible to those of us who'd likely fall for them? (And we did...)

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pussycat wrote:

I beg to differ with this opinion. Perhaps I may be too cynical, but what some saw as a lot of work and effort that were necessary to unlock FSCS/Jedi, I simply saw as SOE taking something that was coveted by many players and using it cruelly as a carrot to put some of us throught he biggest time sink they could possibly think of. And when I saw Creature Handlers getting the nerf bat in late 2003, I realized that there was no way I could possibly trust SOE with any "powerful" profession, because that which could so easily be given to us, could just as easily be taken away... with little or no warning... and regardless of the effort that might have gone in mastering said profession.

I think that, in hindsight, I wasn't too cynical, heck, I was more of a realist. The "powerful" profession ceased to be as powerful as it was originally, and SOE really didn't seem to think much of the effort that might have gone into it on the part of the players. As much as I would have liked to see Jedi remain super rare in the game, to be faithful to the timeline, this only raised the more difficult issue of exactly *who* of all the players who would want it should get it. Powergamers and people with a lot of spare time inherently had a huge advantage over casual players. Yes, some will say that casual players don't deserve any breaks, but I do not adhere to that point of view, both due to my belief in egalitarian ideals but also because I think that diversity is a good thing in an online community.

Yes, Jedi involved the longest grind in the game... but was it really this way because being a Jedi should carry a "price", if you will... or was it because SOE wanted to throw as many time sinks as possible to those of us who'd likely fall for them? (And we did...)

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what a pathetic exuse:

Kraken666-

Please do not stereotype

I DO NOT fit into the group that you are refering to and to say "you" implies all Bounty Hunters.

Thanks

Judihah

Intrepid

MBH / MCM

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wyzer301 wrote:

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pussycat wrote:

I beg to differ with this opinion. Perhaps I may be too cynical, but what some saw as a lot of work and effort that were necessary to unlock FSCS/Jedi, I simply saw as SOE taking something that was coveted by many players and using it cruelly as a carrot to put some of us throught he biggest time sink they could possibly think of. And when I saw Creature Handlers getting the nerf bat in late 2003, I realized that there was no way I could possibly trust SOE with any "powerful" profession, because that which could so easily be given to us, could just as easily be taken away... with little or no warning... and regardless of the effort that might have gone in mastering said profession.

I think that, in hindsight, I wasn't too cynical, heck, I was more of a realist. The "powerful" profession ceased to be as powerful as it was originally, and SOE really didn't seem to think much of the effort that might have gone into it on the part of the players. As much as I would have liked to see Jedi remain super rare in the game, to be faithful to the timeline, this only raised the more difficult issue of exactly *who* of all the players who would want it should get it. Powergamers and people with a lot of spare time inherently had a huge advantage over casual players. Yes, some will say that casual players don't deserve any breaks, but I do not adhere to that point of view, both due to my belief in egalitarian ideals but also because I think that diversity is a good thing in an online community.

Yes, Jedi involved the longest grind in the game... but was it really this way because being a Jedi should carry a "price", if you will... or was it because SOE wanted to throw as many time sinks as possible to those of us who'd likely fall for them? (And we did...)

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The simple fact is, a MMORPG like SWG can't handle Jedi properly. It's one of the MANY problems with having Jedi in the game. Personally, I don't have a necessary problem with Jedi. The problem is that this game set out to do something specific, and ruined a lot of it by introducing Jedi. Originally Jedi were supposed to be extrememely rare. It was going to be near impossible for anyone to figure out HOW to become one, let along become one. Vader was rumored to come after you if you unlocked and drew too much attention. You weren't going to just pick dark jedi, you'd have to fall. Of course, seeing as how you remember the CH nerf, you probably remember all of this as well.

The extreme difficulty of Jedi was supposed to be the payment for getting an "end-game" character. MMORPG can't normally handle an "end-game" character, even though they pop up from time to time. The reason is that then everyone will play to a singular purpose. And "end-game" character also suggests you can "beat" the game, and if someone beats the game, they'll stop playing, and play another game. If they do that, they stop paying their subscription. It also unbalances the game if it is too easy to attain, b/c an "end-game" character is overly powerful compared to other characters, thus putting those others at a disadvantage. If it takes nothing more than time to gain, it also becomes an unfair advantage, b/c it only rewards people who have nothing better to do than play the game. For one character you aren't going to pay more than 15 bucks a month, no matter if you play 5 hours or 50 hours in that month. An unfair advantage causes unrest among the disadvantaged, and risks account cancellations.

Like I said, it was originally intended to be nigh impossible to attain Jedi. That went by the wayside. From the point where they let out how to become a Jedi onward, the game was in a downward spiral. From that point on, SOE couldn't make it hard enough to become Jedi b/c then Jedi wannabes are upset. They can't keep it as "cool" as Jedi is supposed to be, because it would be unfair to anyone who isn't a Jedi. That could lead to account cancellations.

Basically, Jedi are by nature insanely powerful (although arguments have been put forward to the effect that since the academies were gone at this point, and few real jedi left [although since we are harping on the movies, there are none but yoda at this point between ANH and TESB], so the training given to aspiring Jedi would be quite lacking, thus making any Jedi who became a Jedi at this time far less skilled, and thus less powerful). Insanely powerful characters are BAD for gameplay, because they unfairly unbalance the game. If you want Jedi, you must accept the fact that in order to keep the game fair Jedi will be nearly unattainable, or no more powerful than another character, just using different skills and tools.

I'm not saying one way or the other whether it's "fair" to the idea of Jedi, I'm just saying that fair gameplay don't allow Jedi to be easily attainable AND as powerful as we have come to expect Jedi to be. That's just the way it is.

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Couldn't agree with you more -- and some of us saw it coming since Dec. 2003.

okay idiots...read my post AGAIN...as you can see..its not edited, so its STILL the same. its says jedi pre cu...also, the letter said that ALL JEDI ARE PERMANENTLY PVP ENABLED....so if youre precu and bithcing..you really need to shut it up..it also says ACT

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Raganius wrote:

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KRAKEN666 wrote:
what a pathetic exuse:

PvP was Never forced on Any Player. It was a consequence of the choice to become Jedi. Nothing more, nothing less

thats like blaming the dead family that they shouldnt have got in the drunk drivers way. you had the choice of not hunting them didnt you? you bh are so pathetic for the majority of your proffesion. you blame all ills on someone else but never take the blame....you griefed jedi when you could see their names and ranks, you abused mcm's till you got them nerfed, you were exploiting dead droids and rezzing droids, re organized gank squads again, abused the snares and nerfs, and pretty much put this game in its current state. hope you are happy and at least the vet jedi have been playing a gimped game for about 7 months...we have figured out how to play on substandard weapons...guess what, now you have to learn how to play on them now since all weapons are even. lol, I wish you could still hunt us....cause you wont be able to hunt your precious boss missions anymore without a large group.

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I will apologize in advance for this, but are you high? That is a completely inaccurate analogy. This is an example of a good analogy.

You get a Jedi and you will be hunted. You know this. Just like you know that, if you turn a garbage disposal on and then stick your hand into it, you will draw out a stump. I fail to see how any person who took the time to grind out a jedi feels they ever had a right to complain that they were killed while grinding/shopping/waiting on a shuttle. You KNEW that there was a price to pay for your profession choice.

Now to be fair, I did look into the Shipwright, Swordsman, DE, and TK Forums, and lo and behold, no posts about being hunted by BH's. What is different I ask myself. Oh yeah, they are not an outlaw class designed to be hunted by another player class.

You took the time to unlock

Good for you.

You ground out your uber template

Good for you

You got your ass handed to you by a BH

Good for you

You cried about player bounties instead of being a man and finding a better way of fighting the Jedi.

TskTsk.

Just because you put the time into becoming a Jedi does NOT make you a better person than anyone else. It does not make you a more important customer of SOE. It just means you got more of your money's worth than regular professions.

Unless you are a complete neophyte, and stranger to this game and just bought your Jedi instead of grinding it, then you have NEVER had the right to complain about being hunted. You knew what you were setting yourself up for. And you chose to do it anyways. I have no sympathy for you.

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I have never said that people who got Jedi were better than anybody else, nor "more important customers". On the contrary, my main premise is that all of us, whether we chose Jedi or any other profession, were essentially equal and should be treated as equal. Being treated as equals means no forced pvp, means not taking any *one* profession and gearing the content of that *one* profession only towards players who enjoy a certain game style.

You speak as if you seem to have wanted all players to get equal treatment - well, that could have started by not having any content in the game geared towards pvp'ers -- only then could you honestly say that all players were equal and got the equal treatment that we all deserved.

You can justify the hunting of some players due to the game mechanics that were implemented, but just because you could get away with it, didn't meant that it was the right thing to do. All of these BH's delighted in hunting others even though not all Jedi wanted pvp. The BH's simply didn't have respect for that, they could impose themselves on other players and chose to do so. NOBODY was forced to take Jedi missions. I never took a Jedi mission in my life, it seemed disrespectful towards other players and I would have never wanted to interrupt another person's gaming enjoyment.

There was a time when player bounties could have been made optional... give people an opt-out option if they didn't care for pvp. But that was not something that BH's would have supported -- if they could impose pvp on others, by George, they would go out of their way to impose pvp onto others. Last I remember, BH's were clamoring to be able to break into a Jedi's house or otherwise get them out of their houses if they happened to be home and you had a mission on them.

Yes, of course we knew that being a Jedi left open the possibility of unwanted attacks. We cared about the profession for what it represented, and some of us had no desire to be "uber". We knew that, with a little bit of care, we could avoid all or nearly all visibility while grinding and, once we reached full template, would have a lot less to risk. Towards the last few months of the game, a BH attack was a minor annoyance at worst. It could lead to wasting some time that you might have preferred to spend with friends and guildmates... or even in the worst of cases, lost XP that either wasn't needed or, if you wanted to have a way to change your template eventually, could be grinded back in as little as 2 hours.

The fact that these Jedi missions consisted of forced pvp meant that those Jedi who didn't care for pvp usually wouldn't just stay and fight... we made it as hard as possible for the BH to actually be able to initiate combat. This typically resulted in the BH's wasting a lot of time and sometimes also a lot of wasted resources... it would have been so much easier if the only players who got hunted were those who liked pvp and liked to have BH's come to them. But that wouldn't have been good enough for most Jedi-hunting BH's -- you wanted to hunt even those who didn't care for pvp and were willing to make you waste valuable time that you could have spent fighting someone who actually *wanted* to fight and to pvp.

Almost two years to the date from the day the first FSCS was unlocked, we have come 180 degrees. Anyone who likes the idea of being a Jedi in SWG has the freedom to work directly towards that goal, without needless time sinks that were only designed to make you spend months pursuing the chance to take on a profession that you like. Nobody will have to put up with BH's anymore... and those who enjoy pvp will simply go special forces, or find people to duel. Instead of insisting that everyone should have learned to like pvp... ask yourselves why imposing a certain game style upon other players was more important than allowing everyone to enjoy the game content in whatever way they preferred.

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Kempana wrote:

Speaking as a jedi, PvP was not at all forced, its just the little kids who cant keep their glowsticks hidden at the MO that are complaining but ... its there own fault.

All through my grind i controled my Vis when i didnt want a BH i kept my Vis low, on a few occasions when i wanted to test how good my temp was at its current stage i let my vis get high enough to have a BH come after me

There has never been forced PvP all jedi knew what they were getting in to and they knew how to avoid it but they chose not to. If you ask me that is agreeing to it.

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You cannot speak for all Jedi... speak for yourself. And no, a lot of the players who didn't care for pvp were precisely the ones who were not outside the spaceports and other busy areas.

The fact that you knew that you could be attacked didn't mean that each BH attack was not forced pvp. Any pvp is forced if you do not get to choose the time, place and circumstances of the pvp. We did not agree to forced pvp, we realized that we could be attacked, and that there were ways to thwart would-be attackers without giving them the satisfaction of a fight.