Bounty Hunter Archive
Thread: Jedi keep talking about the risk....I THINK I figured it out..
Leatherneck_of_Alderaan wrote:
aekeem wrote:
WookieOgre wrote:
lol, I saw pictures of a Dev playing a Jedi toon on BETA that was posted in July03........if you are trying to say Jedi was never planned to be in SWG you are CRAZY.
ok let's not have this degenerate into belittling the moron who thought jedi weren't originally going to be in game, the point is they were going to be rarely seen and difficult to level, not hoards of them sitting in one spot not even caring who sees them while running afk macros to level from 0 skills to full temp in less than two weeks
No need. I suspect we've heard the last from Jafo1 on the subject.
I never really thought they'd ever be rare. MMO Gamers who want something badly enough will go through hell and back to get it. Just the fact that there was a "system" clued me in that eventually there'd be a TON of Jedi.
Wrong again there SKIPPY! Althou God as my witness I remeber reading it. I Honestly Think this My age is catching up to me. Perhaps it was as you say No jedi at that time But the game Will be evolving or something to that effect. So I Concead your Rite on this issue.
But Dont ever think Im some young Whip who will just Not post or run away From a Debate I start. Im No Jedi. Rite or Wrong ill always Finish what I start.
Message Edited by jafo1 on 07-12-2005 01:19 PM
Higherho wrote:
Dont u SWG players realize why we have such a low amount of players playing SWG compared to other MMORPGS? its because of stuff like this. Jedi are ONE HUGE problem that needs to be fixed immeadiltly.. The GCW is also another thing plus 30 some other professions.
I tried to get people to play this game and they say to me sorry but i tried it and i did not like seeing how their is a jedi around every corner i go to.. They also stated that when its time to fight in the GCW its nearly IMPOSSIBLE because everyone is baiscally a jedi or the majority are...
U people who are jedi who think this class should out rank everyone and be all mighty and powerfull but look how easy it is to get it... Puhh my one friend got jedi in 1.5 months and he did AFK grinding for a month staright and basically got almost his whole template dont exect for 1 to 2 boxes...
Their are 30 other proffesions in this game that would make this game freaking awesome but people dont play them for these reasons.... A. to many jedi around so people really cannot pvp well in the GCW so they hhave to join them or basically dont do combat at all.
B. Half or even more then half of the professions have alot of bugs and people cannot wait for SOE to get done fooling around with the jedi class all darn day... Heck look it took them 2 years to basically fix smuggler and it really was not that big of a fix in the long run..
its pittful that the jedi in this game dont see what is happening.. i beat SOME of the jedi community beccame jedi because they cannot part take in the GCW because they would get housed by all the jedi that partake in it.
Of course ur going to defend ur character but compared to the old days of holocrons and back in beta 2 when they where talking about jedi it was not as easy as it is now... patheic.
No he did not. He did not afk grind for 1.5 months and get a jedi.
Hell, the village takes 4.5 months alone.
Leatherneck_of_Alderaan wrote:
Higherho wrote:
Dont u SWG players realize why we have such a low amount of players playing SWG compared to other MMORPGS? its because of stuff like this. Jedi are ONE HUGE problem that needs to be fixed immeadiltly.. The GCW is also another thing plus 30 some other professions.
I tried to get people to play this game and they say to me sorry but i tried it and i did not like seeing how their is a jedi around every corner i go to.. They also stated that when its time to fight in the GCW its nearly IMPOSSIBLE because everyone is baiscally a jedi or the majority are...
U people who are jedi who think this class should out rank everyone and be all mighty and powerfull but look how easy it is to get it... Puhh my one friend got jedi in 1.5 months and he did AFK grinding for a month staright and basically got almost his whole template dont exect for 1 to 2 boxes...
Their are 30 other proffesions in this game that would make this game freaking awesome but people dont play them for these reasons.... A. to many jedi around so people really cannot pvp well in the GCW so they hhave to join them or basically dont do combat at all.
B. Half or even more then half of the professions have alot of bugs and people cannot wait for SOE to get done fooling around with the jedi class all darn day... Heck look it took them 2 years to basically fix smuggler and it really was not that big of a fix in the long run..
its pittful that the jedi in this game dont see what is happening.. i beat SOME of the jedi community beccame jedi because they cannot part take in the GCW because they would get housed by all the jedi that partake in it.
Of course ur going to defend ur character but compared to the old days of holocrons and back in beta 2 when they where talking about jedi it was not as easy as it is now... patheic.
No he did not. He did not afk grind for 1.5 months and get a jedi.
Hell, the village takes 4.5 months alone.
Leatherneck_of_Alderaan wrote:
Tucheck wrote:
Leatherneck_of_Alderaan wrote:
Tucheck wrote:
Kalandra wrote:
I don't know why BHs complain about this so much, its not ONLY jedi that grind there. in fact once, I took a group down consisting of purely non-jedi. Witha couple LVL 80 FS grinders, and the rest still grinding up to a lvl 80 template. The only reason you see so many jedi down there, is becuase the jedi grind is so much longer, yet we get so much less xp.Everyone wants to grind xp, because its more fun to play as a full template than it is to lay on your backside every ten minutes. Don't hate jedi who grind here, at the keyboard, or away from the keyboard, because everybody does it, not just jedi. If you want something to hate, hate the jedi who run and hide on the bridge when they get a BH inbound.
VERY SIMPLE....WHEN NORMAL PROFESSIONS ARE DONE GRINDING, THEY DON'T HAVE POWERS LIKE CLOAK, STASIS, AND MASTER SABERS
There is a BIG difference (to me) between being able to grind out a normal profession that I actually stand a chance against in a fight....and a Jedi being granted much stronger powers for doing "NOTHING". I DO take it as an insult to ALL of us who have been around longer then at LEAST a year....but like I said...some Jedi as suppose to take longer then others....at THIS rate, all the SWG Devs have introduced is the NEXT installment in the Star Wars saga : Star Wars Ep. 3.8 : Jedi Clone Farming
Jedi...I'll even say the ones who used shady means (because by todays standard, the exploits of yesterday are childs play compared to what goes on now...that and it's SO flagrant) deserved to be a Jedi WITH Jedi powers...all the people in this thread bitching about the fact that I, one player, have a problem with there being NO risk in obtaining a Jedi need to know ONE thing....you DON'T deserve it. To top everything off, you KNOW you don't deserve it, and you are delighted in the fact that you can achieve what YOU may perceive as "end game" (I do not) with little to NO effort. If it's not the NUMBER of Jedi that's is a big problem for the SWG community, then it is most certainly "that attitude". I swear...I wish the Devs would do a server wipe of all Jedi less then 4 months old, let you cancel your accounts, destroy the village, and hide the path to Jedi once again. The more these Jedi whine and complain because I'm more "in your face" about how they don't deserve it, the more fuel it thows on the fire, because it's obvious that it hits a nerve...and I'll just keep on hitting.
Flame away "care bear fan boys"....you talking to a guy who doesn't make it a habit to "fix" his hair to impress strangers in public, you really think ANYTHING you say to me is going to change the way I feel about the means to which you insult this game?
Stasis = ParalyzeMSabers < MSwordsman.
Cloak > Conceal, I agree.
Wrong my friend:
Paralyze does NO damage
Stasis has hit me for 300+ damage and last at least TWICE as long.
Let's compare Master Swords and Master Sabers:
Gen Melee Acc Sw:85 Sa:75 Swords wins
Gen Melee defense Sw:85 Sa:25 (saber block) Swords wins
Gen Melee speed Sw:25 Sa:20 Swords wins
Swords wins this one
One handed acc Sw:65 Sa:140 Sabers Wins
One handed speed Sw:30 Sa:100 Sabers Wins
One handed def Sw:40 Sa:0 Swords win
Sabers wins this one
Two handed acc Sw:110 Sa:140 Sabers win
Two handed speed Sw:75 Sa:100 Sabers wins
Two handed def Sw:50 Sa:0 Swords wins
Sabers wins this one
Both come with just about the same specials: Armor break, Head hit, Power hit...Sabers does have a ranged KD though and SOME pre-CU sabers have been seen hitting for 900-1000 per hit AFTER armor mitigation. To the BEST of my knowledge...NO Master Swordsman has come close to this.
I didn't even do the double bladed skills...that's just a choice of weapons and I find it to be moot.
Sorry, but I would have to say that Master Lightsabers BEATS Master Swordsman.
Finally we come to Cloak vs. Conceal:
Conceal is limited to the prone position and cannot be engaged with anyone (sometimes anything...like speeders and droids) within a 30m radius. Conceal also breaks when anyone (and once again, anything) comes within, I believe 20 or 15m, of the players using conceal.
Cloak is ONLY dependent only on the amount of Force the player has. It can be used at anytime and can be used while walking and less then 0m from other players. The cost is so low currently, that I and 3 friends fought a Jedi last night while he stayed cloaked for roughly 10 - 12 minutes with all of us standing around...I DO understand that to use cloak to THAT extent it is dependent on Force channeling. Furthermore....Cloak is located on the 4th tier, where as Conceal is located on the 1st tier.
Nonetheless....I think it's SAFE to say that the versatility of Cloak over Conceal makes it a much more powerful ability. Cloak wins.
So let's re-cap with the newly added "supporting arguments"....
Stasis > Paralyze
MLS > Master Swordsman
Cloak > Conceal
Nice try, but you really didn't expect me to "roll over" for THIS one did you. Give me some credit please.
Good attempt, however.
Your post did say 'powers like stasis, MLS and Cloak'. All of those are like them. I ceded you conceal vs cloak.
300 damage is a pittance when talking about player vs player. Would you use a gun that only did 300 damage? I suspect you'd turn your nose up at it and rightly so.
Further, the swordsman vs saber comparison is incomplete. Let's talk about damage. let's talk about the fact that a swordsman gets innate defenses with their discipline whereas a MLS gets virtually none.
Your right about the weapon...but ONLY because I know there is a new fix "for chain rooting". This WILL make Stasis just a LITTLE stronger then Concussion shot...but not by much. 300 damage is not pitiful...it's a BONUS. The idea behind
As for Swordsman vs. Sabers for damage...come talk to me in a month when the pearls start dropping again.
Actually I wish I was wrong...just look at the way these abilities are now obtained. It would just make sense if Jedi were "more in line" with non-Jedi characters.
Twice they told us that they "fixed" the problem. Twice they've been incorrect. If it ain't in code, it don't exist.
Tucheck wrote:
Your right about the weapon...but ONLY because I know there is a new fix "for chain rooting". This WILL make Stasis just a LITTLE stronger then Concussion shot...but not by much. 300 damage is not pitiful...it's a BONUS. The idea behind
As for Swordsman vs. Sabers for damage...come talk to me in a month when the pearls start dropping again.
Actually I wish I was wrong...just look at the way these abilities are now obtained. It would just make sense if Jedi were "more in line" with non-Jedi characters.
Tucheck wrote:
Leatherneck_of_Alderaan wrote:
Tucheck wrote:
Kalandra wrote:
.
Stasis = Paralyze
MSabers < MSwordsman.
Cloak > Conceal, I agree.
Wrong my friend:
Paralyze does NO damage
Stasis has hit me for 300+ damage and last at least TWICE as long.
Could you also compare concussion and other mezzes/roots? (I'm ignorant to the damage they do)
Let's compare Master Swords and Master Sabers: Your numbers are flawed, in part, because I think you're reading what you want into it. Look at it in the scope of combat (simply damage vs damage + mods because really, what mswords would use 1h?).
Swordsman Def MLS
Melee 135 (50 from class specific + 85 from general) Melee 0
Ranged 60 (all general) Ranged 0
Even if we consider block - advantage Swordsman
Swordsman Speed/Accuracy MLS
Speed 100 (75 class specific + 25 general) Speed for all 120 (100 per style +20 general)
Accuracy 195 (110 class specific + 85 general) Accuracy 215 (140 per style + 75 general)
Advantage MLS
If you will consider this a tie,what should the tie breaker be? The fact MSwords can wear armor? Or how about weapons? Should we consider damage? And if so how do we rate them based on weapons? At whatpointdo we factor indiminishing returns? Do we consider tapes and foods? Should we consider skill enhancing stims? What aboutcybernetics? **a littlesilly isn't it?**
And seeing as MLS is clearly outclassed in damage yet only mildlybetter in accuracy and speed...is it truly a tie?
Gen Melee Acc Sw:85 Sa:75 Swords wins
Gen Melee defense Sw:85 Sa:25 (saber block) Swords wins
Gen Melee speed Sw:25 Sa:20 Swords wins
Swords wins this one
One handed acc Sw:65 Sa:140 Sabers Wins
One handed speed Sw:30 Sa:100 Sabers Wins
One handed def Sw:40 Sa:0 Swords win
Sabers wins this one
Two handed acc Sw:110 Sa:140 Sabers win
Two handed speed Sw:75 Sa:100 Sabers wins
Two handed def Sw:50 Sa:0 Swords wins
Sabers wins this one
Both come with just about the same specials: Armor break, Head hit, Power hit...Sabers does have a ranged KD though and SOME pre-CU sabers have been seen hitting for 900-1000 per hit AFTER armor mitigation. To the BEST of my knowledge...NO Master Swordsman has come close to this.
I didn't even do the double bladed skills...that's just a choice of weapons and I find it to be moot.
Sorry, but I would have to say that Master Lightsabers BEATS Master Swordsman.
Finally we come to Cloak vs. Conceal:
Conceal is limited to the prone position and cannot be engaged with anyone (sometimes anything...like speeders and droids) within a 30m radius. Conceal also breaks when anyone (and once again, anything) comes within, I believe 20 or 15m, of the players using conceal. This is being changed to allow group members in on it...
Cloak is ONLY dependent only on the amount of Force the player has. It can be used at anytime (must be at minimum 20 m from anyone/npc or thing *yes there are cases of bikes causing the cloak to fail*) **taken from the Jedi FAQ's in the Jedi forum
Name FC FC Drain (per player within 22m) States/Effects
Force Cloak 150 25/cycle(10 secs) User becomes invisible, cannot attack/be attacked
and can be used while walking and less then 0m from other players. The cost is so low currently, that I and 3 friends fought a Jedi last night while he stayed cloaked for roughly 10 - 12 minutes with all of us standing around...I DO understand that to use cloak to THAT extent it is dependent on Force channeling. Furthermore....Cloak is located on the 4th tier, where as Conceal is located on the 1st tier.
Nonetheless....I think it's SAFE to say that the versatility of Cloak over Conceal makes it a much more powerful ability. Cloak wins. As it should be. Even if a rifleman afk's his profession and a jedi does the same...it would take longer to gain cloak compared to conceal. Now, if you want to not insult all Jedi, those that earned it have deserved to use it. I would say the same for the lesser powerful conceal.
So let's re-cap with the newly added "supporting arguments"....
Stasis > Paralyze got me there if you strictly consider "damage"
MLS > Master Swordsman I disagree completely
Cloak > Conceal If you don't consider the downsides to cloak (force cost/activation) yeah its better as it should be
If we simply look at these skills I would agree with stasis and cloak. However, they should be more powerful for the excess "time" required to gain them. Now, if you want to argue that no afk player should be able to gain xp, then fine...I'd agree with you (as thats the only thing I and others, can ascertain from this thread).
As for MLS vs Master Swords...I'd totally disagree. MLS is crap alone. Whereas Swords is pretty decent alone. Argue with the real numbers all you want and consider the additional highlighted arguements and address them. Or better yet dismiss me as usual.
Nice try, but you really didn't expect me to "roll over" for THIS one did you. Give me some credit please.
I honestly have to say that I believe your saber is sub-standard. Either your BH has an exceptional weapon, or your saber needs help. Initally I would agree that many weapons can outdamage a lightsaber...however, I would also add that combined with things like armor break, sabers are FOR more damaging.
As for a method to keep a Jedi away from me...perhaps this would be true if the failure rates were decreased. I DO have stopping shot which does fail and takes well over 40 seconds between each use. Underhand shot usually works on the first attempt, but fails from there for about a 3 to 1 ratio....not to mention it has a rather long cool down as well.
I'm interested to see how the Devs deal with chaining...I don't rely on this "tactic" to do damage, but as I stated...I really don't want to see Paralyze get grouped in with the damaging roots and mez. I DO hope they either leave Paralyze OUT of the chain fix, or give the paralyze ability SOME type of damage as well as the state....like concusion and stasis.
ImageAccess wrote:
Tucheck wrote:
Leatherneck_of_Alderaan wrote:
Tucheck wrote:
Kalandra wrote:
.
Stasis = Paralyze
MSabers < MSwordsman.
Cloak > Conceal, I agree.
Wrong my friend:
Paralyze does NO damage
Stasis has hit me for 300+ damage and last at least TWICE as long.
Could you also compare concussion and other mezzes/roots? (I'm ignorant to the damage they do)
Let's compare Master Swords and Master Sabers: Your numbers are flawed, in part, because I think you're reading what you want into it. Look at it in the scope of combat (simply damage vs damage + mods because really, what mswords would use 1h?).
Swordsman Def MLS
Melee 135 (50 from class specific + 85 from general) Melee 0
Ranged 60 (all general) Ranged 0
Even if we consider block - advantage Swordsman
Swordsman Speed/Accuracy MLS
Speed 100 (75 class specific + 25 general) Speed for all 120 (100 per style +20 general)
Accuracy 195 (110 class specific + 85 general) Accuracy 215 (140 per style + 75 general)
Advantage MLS
If you will consider this a tie,what should the tie breaker be? The fact MSwords can wear armor? Or how about weapons? Should we consider damage? And if so how do we rate them based on weapons? At whatpointdo we factor indiminishing returns? Do we consider tapes and foods? Should we consider skill enhancing stims? What aboutcybernetics? **a littlesilly isn't it?**
And seeing as MLS is clearly outclassed in damage yet only mildlybetter in accuracy and speed...is it truly a tie?
Gen Melee Acc Sw:85 Sa:75 Swords wins
Gen Melee defense Sw:85 Sa:25 (saber block) Swords wins
Gen Melee speed Sw:25 Sa:20 Swords wins
Swords wins this one
One handed acc Sw:65 Sa:140 Sabers Wins
One handed speed Sw:30 Sa:100 Sabers Wins
One handed def Sw:40 Sa:0 Swords win
Sabers wins this one
Two handed acc Sw:110 Sa:140 Sabers win
Two handed speed Sw:75 Sa:100 Sabers wins
Two handed def Sw:50 Sa:0 Swords wins
Sabers wins this one
Both come with just about the same specials: Armor break, Head hit, Power hit...Sabers does have a ranged KD though and SOME pre-CU sabers have been seen hitting for 900-1000 per hit AFTER armor mitigation. To the BEST of my knowledge...NO Master Swordsman has come close to this.
I didn't even do the double bladed skills...that's just a choice of weapons and I find it to be moot.
Sorry, but I would have to say that Master Lightsabers BEATS Master Swordsman.
Finally we come to Cloak vs. Conceal:
Conceal is limited to the prone position and cannot be engaged with anyone (sometimes anything...like speeders and droids) within a 30m radius. Conceal also breaks when anyone (and once again, anything) comes within, I believe 20 or 15m, of the players using conceal. This is being changed to allow group members in on it...
Cloak is ONLY dependent only on the amount of Force the player has. It can be used at anytime (must be at minimum 20 m from anyone/npc or thing *yes there are cases of bikes causing the cloak to fail*) **taken from the Jedi FAQ's in the Jedi forum
Name FC FC Drain (per player within 22m) States/Effects
Force Cloak 150 25/cycle(10 secs) User becomes invisible, cannot attack/be attacked
and can be used while walking and less then 0m from other players. The cost is so low currently, that I and 3 friends fought a Jedi last night while he stayed cloaked for roughly 10 - 12 minutes with all of us standing around...I DO understand that to use cloak to THAT extent it is dependent on Force channeling. Furthermore....Cloak is located on the 4th tier, where as Conceal is located on the 1st tier.
Nonetheless....I think it's SAFE to say that the versatility of Cloak over Conceal makes it a much more powerful ability. Cloak wins. As it should be. Even if a rifleman afk's his profession and a jedi does the same...it would take longer to gain cloak compared to conceal. Now, if you want to not insult all Jedi, those that earned it have deserved to use it. I would say the same for the lesser powerful conceal.
So let's re-cap with the newly added "supporting arguments"....
Stasis > Paralyze got me there if you strictly consider "damage"
MLS > Master Swordsman I disagree completely
Cloak > Conceal If you don't consider the downsides to cloak (force cost/activation) yeah its better as it should be
If we simply look at these skills I would agree with stasis and cloak. However, they should be more powerful for the excess "time" required to gain them. Now, if you want to argue that no afk player should be able to gain xp, then fine...I'd agree with you (as thats the only thing I and others, can ascertain from this thread).
As for MLS vs Master Swords...I'd totally disagree. MLS is crap alone. Whereas Swords is pretty decent alone. Argue with the real numbers all you want and consider the additional highlighted arguements and address them. Or better yet dismiss me as usual.
Nice try, but you really didn't expect me to "roll over" for THIS one did you. Give me some credit please.
Probably won't be able to follow my train of thought but oh well right?
one thing you aren't considering is skill point investment, mswords is 106 skill pts, mls is 89. that's the big problem here is that jedi want to compare their skills to a profession that invests more skill points to get slightly better skills, but jedi have access to a huge variety of skills that they can pick up for relatively few skill points.
cover is 54, cloak is 28, need i go on?
Higherho wrote:
Dont u SWG players realize why we have such a low amount of players playing SWG compared to other MMORPGS? its because of stuff like this. Jedi are ONE HUGE problem that needs to be fixed immeadiltly.. The GCW is also another thing plus 30 some other professions.
I tried to get people to play this game and they say to me sorry but i tried it and i did not like seeing how their is a jedi around every corner i go to.. They also stated that when its time to fight in the GCW its nearly IMPOSSIBLE because everyone is baiscally a jedi or the majority are...
U people who are jedi who think this class should out rank everyone and be all mighty and powerfull but look how easy it is to get it... Puhh my one friend got jedi in 1.5 months and he did AFK grinding for a month staright and basically got almost his whole template dont exect for 1 to 2 boxes...
Their are 30 other proffesions in this game that would make this game freaking awesome but people dont play them for these reasons.... A. to many jedi around so people really cannot pvp well in the GCW so they hhave to join them or basically dont do combat at all.
B. Half or even more then half of the professions have alot of bugs and people cannot wait for SOE to get done fooling around with the jedi class all darn day... Heck look it took them 2 years to basically fix smuggler and it really was not that big of a fix in the long run..
its pittful that the jedi in this game dont see what is happening.. i beat SOME of the jedi community beccame jedi because they cannot part take in the GCW because they would get housed by all the jedi that partake in it.
Of course ur going to defend ur character but compared to the old days of holocrons and back in beta 2 when they where talking about jedi it was not as easy as it is now... patheic.
I agree fully, I have good friends of mine who use to play this with me. We took sometime off bc of money but my friends didnt want to play again because of jedi. I tried it out because of all the cool stuff you get and respecing, vehicles and so on and (repost bc no one listens to reason)....
I played this game before jedis ever existed or advertised, once it wasadvertised thats when they messed up. I just started playing again recently, and jedi are everywhere. This if anything makes wanting to be a jedi more of a goal for players. You cant tell me thatback whenit was so uber and so hard to achieve that everyone was trying to be one. lol making something really hard has the opposite affect. This is only a money making scheme to get people to play. Prime example being noobs asking to be jedi as soon as they start the game.
aekeem wrote:
*snip lots-o-reply*
one thing you aren't considering is skill point investment, mswords is 106 skill pts, mls is 89. that's the big problem here is that jedi want to compare their skills to a profession that invests more skill points to get slightly better skills, but jedi have access to a huge variety of skills that they can pick up for relatively few skill points.
cover is 54, cloak is 28, need i go on?
I don't consider mswords to be "slightly" better at all.
Armor: Swords > saber
Defenses: Swords > saber
Damage: Swords > saber
Accuracy and speed mods: Swords < Saber.
And when you're figuring point costs,
Swords (106) > Saber (121) - 89 fr the tree and 24 for FS which is a pre-req.
And Cloak just got screwed too. Congratulations. One discipline is completely worthless only 4 more to go.
aekeem wrote:
cover is 54, cloak is 28, need i go on?
Leatherneck_of_Alderaan wrote:
And Cloak just got screwed too. Congratulations. One discipline is completely worthless only 4 more to go.
aekeem wrote:
cover is 54, cloak is 28, need i go on?
I was just going to say...
Cloak has now become a non-issue...