Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: Publish 12/16 Bugs and issues
Besides documentation, would you beg Kel for to answer a few questions Talth?
1) Going from DNA Samples to DNA Template... is this driven purely by a set algorithm or is there a random number call?
2) Going from DNA template to Clone.. is this drivenpurely by a set algorithm or is there a random number call?
3) Reconfirm that Flora / Meat stats do NOTHING. This is, of course, near impossible to test at all. Getting identical DNA Templates is hard enough on a single stat pair, but to get 100% identical DNA Templates is beyond human capabilities short of an act of God (I would rather win the lottery, prolly better odds too).
I ask the firsttwo question because without any documentation we don't even know if our crafting works like every other crafting class in SWG. I'm seeing some really weirdo results where the identical stat pairs are giving different numbers in both cases. Hard: X and Fort: Y yield Hard: Z and Fort: W... then on another set X Y yield A and B. I can explain this away by not knowing for certain everything that influences the combinations of the DNA. However going from DNA Template to Clone there shouldn't be this problem... at least all indications point to a 1:1 relationship between certain template stats and certain clone stats, but what i'm seeing is Hard: X and Fort: Y giving Health Z, then on another identical combine getting Health W. Both of these suggest to me that there is a random number call in both steps... which for us would royally suck without having the CL added to the DNA Template.... but if there isa random number call going Template to Clone, that would 100% explain why we don't have CL on the template.
More bugs... experimentation is screwy if you don't get a Great Success. I've had several Success experimentations which have dropped a stat not even associated with the stat pair I'm experimenting on 
Last one was a "Success" on Physique that dropped Hardiness, raised Fortitude, and (this is the weird part) lowered Courage. Dunno what is up with that.
Even more bugs... this took awhile to do, but I put myself thru the agony. I did 15 DNA Templates under these conditions:
- S = DNA with SP1=none, SP2=exists
- N = DNA with SP1=none, SP2=none
- Template was filled as S / N / N / N / N
3 of them had SP2 transfer to the template, 12 did not.
I repeated this with another 15 DNA templates under these conditions:
- S = DNA with SP1=exists, SP2=none
- N = DNA with SP1=none, SP2=none
- Template was filled as S / N / N / N / N
4 of them had SP1 transfer to the template, 11 did not.
That looks buggy to me.... but without documentation who knows?
Not all huurtons are aggro though . I wouldn't mind certain skins being aggro if there were some way they could represent it, either in the schematic in the datapad or on the final deed. The only way I've been finding this out is to actually tame the pet and then take a look at him. By that time, if its an aggro pet, its worthless.
Pets that use small 'shells' have slow moving speed. This makes them worthless at PvP as people can easily out run them and serves as an annoyance while out hunting as you have to stop every 5 seconds so they catch up.
All'shells' should share the same movement speed regardless of size so that all models are viable for usage!
MissileToad wrote:
Now that I've had a couple nights to play around, here's some issues of mine...
1 - Mask Scent... actually 2 sub-issues here.
a) The highest level creatures are not made by the best Bio-Engineer, but are made by the person with best Scout/Ranger +Mask Scent mods. High level creatures (i.e. 60+) are in high demand by CH's, but even a Master Bio-Engineer cannot fulfill these requests unless they are also a Master Scout or higher. I have Exploration IV plus +25 mods from clothing, yet I cannot step within 65m of a level 60+ creature without it deciding I'd make a good lunch. We're the only hybrid crafting profession - we spend many more points than an elite Artisan to master our class... yet we have no vendor abilities, cannot survey, and are completely ineffectual without at least tier 4 Exploration. Cut us a break here man, we're literally dying! I'm resenting having to become Master Scout just to get close to the "resources" I need to be the Master Bio-Engineer I am. Something like a +Mask Scent mod in our skilltree somewhere would be immensly helpful. If Combat Medics can have +Terrain Negotiation, why not +Mask Scent in Bio-Engineer?
b) Mask Scent seems kind of off. It breaks many times when it did not pre-patch. It is not always like this though, but it does go through it's 'phases', so to speak.
2 - Being able to seeCL on DNA samples and templates is sorely needed.
3 - I've made a couple of kimogilas using level 55+ DNA, yet the final combine yielded a kimo of level 45. Granted they are still nice kimos, but why the drop? I haven't had this happen with any other skin.
4 - Critical failures. What's up here, I get like 1/5 to 1/4 of my final combines failing. BAH.
5 - Experimentation fails. Happens much more than they used to.
1a) this is called interdepandency no one is forceing you to take Both CH and BE, you have enough points to master BE scout and Ranger and have a few left over for 2/1/2 in medic, Why does every one want things handed to them on a plate? A while back the CH's were Screamsing "we need to be able to see the CL no matter what its critical" cause they didnt want to go that extra bit and be able to see the creatures Cl with out first mastering scout?
I supposed We should be able to see everything that a master Ranger can cause we put animals together, so we should know??????
1b) Mask Scent issue has come up numerous times in the scout and ranger forums. you cant just get Exploration and Hunting 4 and expect it to work like a master scout can(and you shouldn't).
go the extra mile, drop CH and go Ranger, or at least master Scout, if you dont like to play fair then just get a second account.
Talthazar wrote:
You need to divorce your personal agenda from the job of Correspondent. That isn't what your job is supposed to be.
My personal agenda has nothing to do with my job as correspondent. Let's be clear here, my job is not to report what you personally think either. I have, in fact, relayed the concern of documentation to Keldarin, but... Not everyone agrees with you, as can be clearly seen on this thread, I have also relayed that. I put things in my top 5 report, that I don't personally agree with, but they had the most votes on the top 5 thread so they went in and I try not to color those with my personal opinion. Here, however, I feel I have as much right to state my opinion as any other BE.
I agree with Sumo here.
What's even the point of a Bugs thread when we have no clue how the system is supposed to work in the first place?
Sure a few people will get a real kick out of "cracking the code", but for the rest of us it's pretty frustrating and annoying (i.e. not fun) to have clone after clone not turn out the way we expect it to.
I chalange ANY BE to make the EXACT following creature without documentation:
CL: 23. Skin: Any, prefer cat. AR1. 50% Kin, 40% Eng, 20% all other resists. SA1: Strong Poison. SA2:Knockdown. Ranged: Yes.
I've read of lower CL critters with AR1, so that part is possible. Of course, without documentation no one can, without a doubt, tell me one way or another if this exact critter is even possible. Can a MA tell you if aswoop with 2300HAM is possible? Can a MWeaponsmith tell you what damage/speed/HAM cost his guns will do/have?
SOME sort of, even basic, documentation is called for.
XyberViri wrote:
1a) this is called interdepandency no one is forceing you to take Both CH and BE, you have enough points to master BE scout and Ranger and have a few left over for 2/1/2 in medic, Why does every one want things handed to them on a plate? A while back the CH's were Screamsing "we need to be able to see the CL no matter what its critical" cause they didnt want to go that extra bit and be able to see the creatures Cl with out first mastering scout?
I supposed We should be able to see everything that a master Ranger can cause we put animals together, so we should know??????
1b) Mask Scent issue has come up numerous times in the scout and ranger forums. you cant just get Exploration and Hunting 4 and expect it to work like a master scout can(and you shouldn't).
go the extra mile, drop CH and go Ranger, or at least master Scout, if you dont like to play fair then just get a second account.
Addressed so many times in the past, I almost loathe doing it again.... but if that viewpoint is going to be expressed, I'm going to give the counterpoint.
To start, I will challenge any supporter of the Master Ranger / Master Bio Engineer template to name a single skill linewhich makes a crafter head and shoulders better than anyone else in their profession. Well thats rhetorical, I've heard them before.
Some say Surveying. First, if we use the logic of surveying making them better, then Bio Engineers have the exact same requirement (only it cost the Bio Engineer MORE points than the artisans). Second, you can (and many do), simply buy the resources from someone. Keep in mind that you aren't getting resources with +X to each characteristic just because you have surveying. That is the advantage the Master Ranger is getting. Resource + X.
Some say the Mechant line. Guess what? Yup, then we would apply this logic to Bio Engineers needing it too (and it would cost them more points than other crafters). Again, being a merchant doesn't make your product better, it simply gives you an easier means of selling them.... if you are selling Fords, you are selling Fords, they will never be BMWs.
Master Artisan! This comes close, I will grant that... but only for a handful of classes. Some schematics require MA parts to even make! Despite being able to BUY this stuff easily from other players, what if I allowed this to be considered the equivalent of Master Ranger? Well for those needing MA parts, it would cost them 48 more points. The BE required to have Master Ranger would require111 more points. DOUBLE! Well what if we did just up Wayfaring IV? 68 more points! 50% more than MA. So what about just requiring ExpIV? Okie finally some semblance of balance.... 14pts. When you consider the additional skill point requirements of a BE over other crafters thats 14+ 15 (medic basic) = 29 we're even closer to a semblance of balance.
What about Smuggler for Weaponsmith / Armorsmith? This one is intriguing, because it does generally make an item better! Heh, well unless you get that speed slice on your pistol or that effectiveness slice on your composite. Those items become worth considerably LESS than they were unsliced. If I concede the point of Smuggler making you a better Weaponsmith how many points does it does? 15 + 14 + 15 + 14 + 6 + 1 + 56 = 121. Oddly, almost the same as Master Ranger. So lets balance that then. The slicer makes around 30% of his items WORSE by slicing them (worthless speed slices, worthless effectiveness slices), so a Master Ranger should make 30% of his clones worse than just a plain Master Bio Engineer? Sounds silly, but thats the logical conclusion I draw from the comparison if I say that Smuggler/WS is better than WS.... but I could just drop my clones off with a Master Ranger to slice whenever he has some free time, oh wait, it doesn't work that way.... it does for the Weaponsmith / Armorsmith.
I'll spare you the Armor/Tailor, BE/Doctor, Chef/Ranger, etc combos. They all come down to NOT making a better statistical product vs those without them.
I'm fine with Exploration IV being a psuedo-requirement for Bio Engineer. It isn't a painful expenditure of skill points, AND it leads to Creature Handler (a logical transition / complement to Bio Engineer). Mask Scent needs to be balanced, when taking into account a +25 suit of clothing, to allow us to reasonably get close to the maximum level creature that a Bio Engineer can sample. Right now, it is close. It needs a small bump up in power. I was 100% fine with how it worked prior to this patch.
Of course, I don't think Mask Scent should even be necessary... if I had my way we could get 1 DNA sample from a corpse. THAT would return some of the extra 29 pre-requisite skill points Bio Engineers pay over the Artisan professions (Medic + OCIV vs nothing on the artisan's side).
And thru all of this, I ignored the last comment, but will address this now. It isn't about going the extra mile. If it is, then they should remove the ability to tame sub-CL10 deeds from the game. Go the extra mile and play fair. Get Master Creature Handler. Also remove the ability to transfer sub-CL 10's without the Transfer Command.... get Master Creature Handler, or are you lazy like you imply those in my camp are?
Experimentation failures are jumping stat categories. This is extemely frustrating.
How it works:
- You experiment in a category.. say Mental
- You get a failure result... this usually raises one stat and lowers the other (confirmed that it is supposed to work this way by the Top 5 Response from Kel)
- Sometimes (around 80%) you have a non-related stat drop also.. like Fortitude
- If the non-related stat was capped out previously, the experimentation bars don't allow you to fix the problem by spending another experimentation point in that category
Perhaps this type of failure is meant to be possible... but it seems very buggy to me as it appears totally random which non-related stat it afflicts.
If it is MEANT to be this way, then for pete's sake please make the % bar drop so the damage can be repaired. This is particularly frustrating when you lose Light Armor and can't go back to fix it.
I havent had much time to craft anything but junk the the few pets my friend tamed didnt retain color, was default color/
And I agree CL opf DNA would be nice, as is if you plane of doing any sampling you need a note pad for lvl and then its a pain in the backend to compare the CL's on pad to names once have a variety
At the risk of another 3 page post, I will say this...Sumo you have some real anger bro. We are not like other crafting classes. No weaponsmith in any galaxie can make T21s that can attack a critter on thier own and keep the user of them from personal harm. Bio Engineers can make animals that do just that. Because our product could now be a major impact on game balance we have been given some real handicaps as well. You are a well versed player man, come on...you know very well what I am talking about.
Hell yes we have all kinds of things outside of our crafting profession that we have to look at now. Hell, I was a Master CH, Master Bio Eng, and Master Medic. My guild loved to have me along, I had my pets for damage, I made Petstims for them to keep their pets healthy, and I healed while they fought. I have since reduced my medic abilities to just what is required so that I can get the Master Scout box, and climb a bit up ranger so I can see specials. I am not angry with this, it is just a part of the way Bio Eng work now. I loved that Master Medic box too, I couldpop off a 1000+ pt heal every 2 seconds or so(med tissue help get the big number heals). But I am not a healer by design, I wanted to make pets...BIG pets. And guess what, my guild Still loves to have me along on hunts even though one of the other folks has to help with the heals.
This is not a major flaw in our profession in my opinion. A major change, yes. It was obsurd before to be able to sample butterflies then make crappy gurrecks. Sample those crappy gurrecks in our inventory, then make reall nice Gurrecks, or Rancors, or whatever the hell else. You know what? Since the patch I have been asked to make pets like 3 times as often as before the patch. We wanted something that sets us apart and gives us an ability to sell to folks some things that CH cannot get by taming a critter...well, we need to pay for it. The CH had to take risks to get Rancors or Screechers or whatever, we could just sample butterflies and make our pets. There is something called Risk vs. Reward that SWG is beginning to adhere to, and it is making the game much more challenging going forward. I am pleased with it because it means the game will be here, and be fun to play for a fairly long time.
As far as documentation goes however, we do need to know what the hell is going on. If the powers that be won't do it then we have to do it for ourselves. Talthazar has a web page he made to illustrate what happens to special attacks and armor when placed into certain slots. Very cool. I am working on figuring out what the HAM pools will be based on the HAM stats so we can determine a bit better what the CL will be of animals we make. What we need now is forfolks with Master Scout/high level Ranger abilities put together a list of the critters with good special attacks and good resists? Or is there a website that already has this info?
Chooloo -"anyone need a Wookieehug?"
Eclipse, Twilight City
I'm finding myself growing frustrated with the Bio-Engineering profession. We can't get any assistance from any other person (except another BE) for collecting DNA samples. The Mind costs are terrible, and I've recently had to start using Glucose Paste to bump by Mind and Focus enough that I can take more then five samples before having to stop and rest. The sampling aggro is lethal. I always sample with pets on guard duty, but the creature I've been sampling attacks me instantly upon an aggro, ignoring my pet. I have to burst away as the only means of escape, meaning I then have to sit and wait for the burst to recover before I can safely sample again.
Then there's the new cloning system. It's confusing! I've been looking at the other professions, and the items Architects, Tailors and Weaponsmiths can produce, and all of their assemblies and experimentations return predictable results. They know what they're getting in the final product. We don't. I've been playing with the changes since patch day, still don't understand how to get the results I want in the final product. I have people asking for CL X creatures, and keep ending up with clones at half that value. I tried making a poison-spitting hell kaadu, that was mountable given my current CH level, and ended up with a poisonous kaadu that couldn't spit, several levels higher than I can use. I just can't get my mind around the complexity of the new cloning system.
Then there are the organic resources. We need organic harvesters! I've been out of pet stims for a week now, as I'm out of resources. I can't find people to hunt for me, at reasonable prices, andcan't spendthe time hunting on my own. In the beginning, there were large numbers of people hunting and providing resources on the bazaar. Now people seem to think it's reasonable to sell mediocre meat at 3000 cr for 120 units. Without organic harvesters, I don't see any way to keep my business going, given the declining population and the obsession with holocron hunting.
Some more detail on problems with pre-patch pet deeds:
- They can be sampled, but on success no message/exp is given, and no DNA sample appears. Failure gives the correct message.
- Pre-patch deeds appear to have lost their special attacks
- When tamed, they show up on the datapad as level 0, or level 1 when fully grown. However, when summoned, they are the correct CL. This means that it is possible for a CH to summon more CL than they are allowed. Working with Gurrecks (CL50), summoning a wild Gurreck and then one of these pre-patch pets will allow a CH to summon up to 150CL of pets. However, if you summon the BE pet first, you won't be able to summon the wild pet. I haven't tested it, but I'd guess that this would also allow a non-CH to summon a CL50 Gurreck.