Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: nocious kahmurrith dna the real information and rant
DiusFidus wrote:
I'd like to see the tc post about bugged dna. Not doubting it, I'd just like to see their reasoning.
Believe this is the thread.
forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=bio-engineer&message.id=39772&page=1
From quite awhlie ago when we thought it was just the kamurith causing a severe depression of CL, of course since then we've seen it other more deliberate actions, but the kamurith is still the easiest to perform this on.
Ahh...thx Sumo.
Huh...seems rather spacific to the Nocious Kahmurrith and does not address the real problem. It has been proven that "out of ballance" pets can be made even without the use of this "buged" DNA. Ooo well...hope to see some Dev comments on this soon. 
Blingbling wrote:
"I think the new system is quiet balanced and where it should be.. I think that a BE pet should be better then a wild one.. Other wise kill off the BE profession as it will be usless.. I think the devs have it nailed right as it is now.. And it works.. ."
Hmmm. Do you really believe this? I may be wrong, but I would guess that pretty soon the devs are going to change the wayCL iscalculated.
"Light armor is 40% to all resist natively."
I thought for sure it was 50%. Apparently,I don't know nearly as much about this game as I thought.
"Resists are applied AFTER Armor is applied"
Ok. Now I'm pretty sure that A x B x C = A x C x B, but, again I could be wrong. I always confuse the Associative Property with the Distributive Property.
"Math is with armoris Original Damage * Resist Mod * Armor Mod..."
I coulda sworn it was Original Damage * Armor Mod * Resist Mod. I better start calculating it your way instead of mine. All my armor calculations are going to have to be redone.
"You need to get the fortiude higher to get the Armor.. So the closer you get the fortitude to the magic number (I will not give out all the information as I am not here to share my full information as I am a mean person like that) the more you lose the resists"
I'm pretty sure I read something about that magic number somewhere. Man, I wish that I was as knowledgable about BE as you are, or that you would at leastshare this info with the rest of us.
I have spent tons of hours and 1000's of DNA samples comming up with the information I have. And trust me this is a total of 8,000 pages of data.. And plotted how things change when things are done.... Anyone of you who think you know it.. STOP NOW and get a life...
Wow, you're telling someone else to get a life? How many pages of data do you have again?
"You wanting to set limits on CL. Well just bring back the old system in BE.. Becuase appreantly you miss it becuase that is what you want back.. And dont claim otherwise becuase you are wrong.. Wanting to set limits on ham vs cl vs damage vs your happiness is just wrong.. Just hard set it at that point and make all BE's creatures the same again.. Make no randomness to it or skill involved.. Just make it a matter of combine this with that and get this and it will be this all the time.. Grow up and stop thinking you found the holy grail of bugs.. Becuase you havn't.."
Perhaps I just misunderstand the point you are trying to make, but why does the choice have to be to eitherleave it the way it is or go back to the old way? The last patch dramatically changed the way BE cloning works, and it shouldn't come as a surprise that it will have to be tweaked a bit. Seems to me, they just need to modify the way CL is calculated. They did make several statements about wantingto fix a problem with some creatures being overpowered for their CL.The last patch, in part,was an attempt to address that. I may be wrong, but I think they are going to continue to address the problem of some creatures being overpowered for their CL.
Blingbling.. The Only True Bio-Eng
Hehe. Fortunately, I am not the kind of person to get upset by this type of post. I do find it amusing though. And, I wanted to at least point out that your Math, not to mention your spelling, needs some work.
I'd still say that it's dna to be avoided since you'll find that it's exceptionally tough to make balanced clones when it contains this dna and obviously that leads to the following clones ending up with similar problems. So yeah, it's not bugged in the usualhowever it does make the flaw in the system far more obvious and can be exploited.
Sumorex wrote:
meroc wrote:Sumo,
You're vastly underestimating the importance of speed. 2.17 vs 2.0 is minimiscule at best.
To Hit, unless you can show me some log parses (and I'll be HIGHLY grateful if you can, honestly I will because its a question I haven't gotten to tackle) showing that To Hit is linear function... I don't think it is highly important.
br>
To Hit is extremely important if you care about damage per second. Most notably when fighting high level mobs.
I had a pet I created that had super damage, but To-Hit came out at .22 I didnt think to much about it, until i had another pet with To Hit of .44 out at the same time fighting a fairly high level mob. The huurton missed 3 outa 4 times where the other pet hit every time.
Hmmm while I cannot say anything from a BE standpoint. Iw ill add an opinion from a general players standpoint. One my fencer I would be thrilled if this was accepted because then I could solo many more things than i currently can
But I do have a farily decent CH, and I would be outraged. I am 3-2-1-4 CH. I can barely control a graul mauler, which have roughly the same stats as some of these level 8 pets I see running around. Sure I can use these pets too, great! But it also eradicated the use for my class. But its maddening that any tom **edit** or harry, can use one pet, that i have to spend about 70 skill points to use, just by having a BE friend, or ebing insanely rich.
With the most recent balances they did on pets and creatures in general, how can anyone think this is intentional? They were punishing dabblers for just using those two trees in CH, by rewarding people for not even bothering to get them? I would certainly love to see a BE graul mauler at level 30 or 25. assuming they were the exact same stats, but having a pet be up to 30 levels lower, is not very fair in my opinion.
Be's certainly deserve a boost, for they were one of the most underrespected and under loved proffesions. But this is like trying to light a fire with 10 tons of napalm. Im not saying this is an exploit or bug, but merely that I cant see how it would be intentional.
Both sides have made very harsh, and effective points. I was just adding an outside perspective.
Lifylos wrote:
Hmmm while I cannot say anything from a BE standpoint. Iw ill add an opinion from a general players standpoint. One my fencer I would be thrilled if this was accepted because then I could solo many more things than i currently can
But I do have a farily decent CH, and I would be outraged. I am 3-2-1-4 CH. I can barely control a graul mauler, which have roughly the same stats as some of these level 8 pets I see running around. Sure I can use these pets too, great! But it also eradicated the use for my class. But its maddening that any tom **edit** or harry, can use one pet, that i have to spend about 70 skill points to use, just by having a BE friend, or ebing insanely rich.
With the most recent balances they did on pets and creatures in general, how can anyone think this is intentional? They were punishing dabblers for just using those two trees in CH, by rewarding people for not even bothering to get them? I would certainly love to see a BE graul mauler at level 30 or 25. assuming they were the exact same stats, but having a pet be up to 30 levels lower, is not very fair in my opinion.
Be's certainly deserve a boost, for they were one of the most underrespected and under loved proffesions. But this is like trying to light a fire with 10 tons of napalm. Im not saying this is an exploit or bug, but merely that I cant see how it would be intentional.
Both sides have made very harsh, and effective points. I was just adding an outside perspective.
Ahh so good data to throw into the mix. I Understand what you have said here but am unclear on a couple things.
You are a CH with 3-2-1-4 that is 42 points. And you can throw 2 pets at 1 time. You can throw 2 pets that hit for around 400's I know I can make them for you. So how is this not better then a non-ch that his 10K ham and hits for 20-30?
I understand however there is a bug right now that allows for NON-CH pets that hit for 300's.. This should be fixed. But if it hit for 20-30 would you still be outraged? I also understand that BE pets are for the rich and friends of BE's right now as I charge VERY HIGH ammounts of cash for a good pet. And I think that is unfair. So something on that end would need to change as well?
Anyone else with thoughts on this?
So what Talth is saying is that ALL of our clones made since update will change their CL's
This is just great, now I am going to have a ton of CH's pissed at me because the CL23-35's Ive made while trying to learn this stupid, undocumented system are going to change CL.
Thanks
It is a question you need to answer because you are putting forth that they are NOT overpowered. Given the wealth of evidence to the intent of the creature revamp, these pets are vastly overpowered.
Obviously you have a problem reading. I have not said they are overpowered, I have not said they are not overpowered. I have asked repeatedly where the sanctimonious posters like yourself who have taken it upon themselves to speak for what the devs intended, say where their line is between balanced and not. For some reason you can not answer that. So obviously it is you who has closed his mind to logic and only insists on crying bug!, exploit!, overpowered.. Again tell me what is the difference between an overpowered pet and just a great pet made by a talented bio.
I'm well versed in what Kel told us. I'm also fairly well versed in what happened to EVERY creature that was tamable before. Again you turn a blind eye to what happened to EVERY creature in the game under the creature revamp. In the realm of tamable pets, I can't think of a single instance where the relative power of the creature post-patch exceeds the power of the creature pre-patch.. nevermind that the power increase in these non-CH pets is multi-fold.
Again the point eludes you, what is the difference between an overpowered pet and just a great pet made by a talented bio. Basically it sounds to me like you dont think BE's should be able to make better pets for a CH then they can find in the wild. If that is true then I can say I differ in opinion.
Again, hiding your head in the sand and refusing to consider the wealth of evidence of what was intended. It is a pattern... hear no evil, see no evil, do no evil. Heck I can make pets with baby-DNA it *MUST* be intended... at least until the Devs see it and go OH NO.
Again, playing the mute and using numerous logical fallacies while the point being made eludes you. Ignore the question all you like, you are the one who appointed yourself dev spokesperson, not I. Tell me what is the difference between an overpowered pet and just a great pet made by a talented bio.
Again, point to me a SINGLE instance to back up your point. Throw in the red herring of CL11+'s... thats fine, the problem is there also, but just not as overpowering or incongruent. I *can* agree that the highier you go up the CL ladder, the more we have to depend on the Devs for their guidance, however, the stuff popping out at CL10's and lower are glaring to the point blindingly overpowered. But sure, avoid the point, you're good at it, especially because you can't show where the CL system is applied in this manner to wild animals.
Back up what point? That I dont know where the devs intended the line between an overpowered pet and a great pet? You obviously dont know yourself since you can not answer that question. Numerous logical fallacies in this also. You are the King of avoiding the point. Show me where the weapon crafting system is applied to loot drop for weapons.
Humor, I can appreciate it... but it isn't evidence for, nor a foundation to build, the glaring omission of CL2 to 10's with light armor. In every single instance of light armor existing in the CL2 to 15 range, they were removed in this revamp. Why?
What is the HAM of your CL10 probot? HRM? Oh yeah, its 100 pts less than these creatures. Oh wait no, I was wrong! It is 1000pts less. Hrm, wrong again.... see a pattern?
Keep blindly wishing that Armor was meant for a CL10....
Again the point eludes you, tell me where the devs intended the line to be. However we are getting somewhere. From your last statement obviously you are no against having Light Armor on non ch pets. This is exactly what I am talking about in your vague arguments that you dont even know what you are arguing about. You are INSISTING that because there are no cl10 or lower light armored creatures in the wild there shouldnt be any BE made one, and yet you argue that having a Medium Armor cl10 probot is reasonable because of the HAM. So basically you are implying that a CL10 Light armor Kaadu is fine if the HAM is low enough to meet your requirements. Which brings us back to where is the line? Would a light armor Kaadu be fineif it hasabout 2k HAM but less armor then the Probot? I have no doubt you will continue to ignore these questions with the same focus as you have ignored them every other time before.
Yeah me dumb dumb fool. Me no nothing.
Finally common ground. A point we can both agree on.
Paradisio wrote:
I seriously doubt that they would modify the existing petlevels if they have a moderatelevel of intelligence... The backlash would be tremendous against the BEs and the devs. 1000s of people would be furious at wasteing their hard earned money on something that they would probably have to delete.
Maybe that's why some of us haven't sold any of the ridiculously over-powerednon-CH pets?
/ponder
Ri'a
DaBlingbling wrote:
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Ok so now lets narrow this down. The whole point of people ranting about NON-CH vs CH creatures is becuase people are worried that what is the point in being a CH if you get such an uber pet. And it demeens the class of CH.. That is what I am taking from the whole argument. Becuase lets face it. If there was no CH class and all people could throw pets this wouldnt even be an argument about the CL as no one would really care. Right?
NON-CH can throw 1 creature that has N stats and max of 2 specials
CH can throw up to 3 creatures that has N stats and max of 6 specials
Now with that said what I am hearing from some people is that Resistances should only be for CH's creatures
CH's should be the only ones with pets with a HAM > 2500??
CH's should be able to be better then NON-CH (This would be a duh! But had to list it)
CH creatures should hit like a truck
NON-CH creatures should hit like a Vasser Girl in a boxing match.
So if I am missing anything please add to this or point out what I am saying is wrong..
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Just my thoughts on this....
An MCH will definitely get a larger benefit out of their pets by being able to use 3 of them.....but does that benefit outweigh the skill point investment to get them (granted it's rather subjective, will depend on the person). As an MCH I'm usually only using 1 pet for most day-to-day situations. There are certainly times where having more then one out is incredibly useful, but it's not required for *most* of the things I do. With the non-ch pets that we can currently make (assuming for a moment they're here to stay), it becomes very tempting to just grab one, drop CH completely, and spend all of those points on further combat skills.
Pets in combat (for most people) are just there as a distraction. True....these non-ch pets don't compare to what a CH can use, but they arestill solid and can fill the role nicely. If I can get alarge portion of the benefit without having to spend the skillpoints (and in turn being able to use those skillpointsin other much more powerful combat skills)....well....that's a potential problem. One big reason for the CH change was so that people couldn't get toomuch powerfrom minimum skill investment. At the moment we're on pace to be able to provide that kind ofpowerfor *no* skill investment whatsoever.
I just honestly don't feel they intended to reduce creatures, ch pets, and non-ch pets across the board just to turn around and give us the ability to make things more out of balance then they were previously (only real exception now being the 60% cap on kinetic). I don't think things need to be brought down to the level where it's useless....my current thinking is roughly around maybe 4k ham with passable resists (assuming someweaknesses are bred in) and no armor might be a decent cap for non-ch pets. Better then what they can get in the wild, not better then the old non-ch pets that had armor). Might still be too much as there has to be some sort of logical progression from there all the way up through the CH tree to master.
Anyway, I'm not the person to make these decisions (or even decide if this is a problem). Just pointing out my view on the matter.
Daishar_Valcyn wrote:
I just honestly don't feel they intended to reduce creatures, ch pets, and non-ch pets across the board just to turn around and give us the ability to make things more out of balance then they were previously (only real exception now being the 60% cap on kinetic).
/agree
But I guess some of the folks arguing on this thread think that the REAL reason all the CH and creature changes went in, was so that BE could create pets much better (5x? 10x?)than what people had before.. and let them control those pets without "wasting" any points at all on CH skills!Of course, that makes perfect sense - not game balance, not nerfing CH dabblers, making master CH more valuable, not any of that.. but really just for the BE's. Um, yeah. If you believe that, I got a bridge I'd like to sell you.
Ri'a
I'm going to take a few bits and pieces from your post and comment on them:
DaBlingbling wrote:
NON-CH can throw 1 creature that has N stats and max of 2 specials
CH can throw up to 3 creatures that has N stats and max of 6 specials
Just so you know as far I have tried and many others, specials are just about worthless at the moment. So although I would have agreed with this small comment if the specials worked, they dont at the moment.
Now that is just silly to think so lets look at what is really being made right now
10K HAM hits for 200-220 (Best I have seen) Resists up to 49% to all stats with the so-called Bugged DNA
Best CH creature in the game that I have made
12.8K Ham 60 Kinetic 90 Heat/Blast/Energy/Cold/Elect/Acid/Stun hits for 670-680 CL 69
Now which one will win? Hands down I would say the CH pet to pet.. Now that is PVP.. So what is the non-chers gaining? Other then the ability to lay back a little easier in PVE.. Throw the pet so they dont have to get thier butts whopped while they do thier thing..
The question isn't which will win. Unless your in the buissness of just staring at animals kill each other your point makes no sense. If you had any real exp in playing PvP with pets, you would know a person would be an idiot to attack the pet. All you do is kill the handler, end of fight. So what is the main use of a pet then, armor in PvE. Pets have been and will always be a form of "armor" or "meatshield". Pets do little to no damage unless were talking about specials working, then I would say yes pets can do damage given a large amount of time. So saying a cl69 pet can kill a cl2 pet means nothing. Its all about the skill points left over and how you use them that is creating this imbalance with a 10k hamm non-ch pet.
CL should totally be based on damage of the creature and I would also think Armor should play a part.. That should be another bennifit of a CH to be able to control a creature with armor.. So if you want to create a NON-CH pet that hits for 20-30 with 12K ham that should be allowable for a CL 2-3 pet.. So in essence..
lol, I clearly see where your headed. I think you know creatures attack doesn't mean squat. I for one am telling every Bio Eng making me a pet to ignore the damage and concentrate on ham and resists. You obviously haven't played CH and if you did your being corrupted by the $$$ you can make with these uber non-ch pets.
So a creature that hits for 200 would be a 20 CL.. Regardless of its ham.. or resists. As I feel it doesnt give any advantage over a CH or belittle them in anyway other then the fact of bringing a little happiness to the other classes..
Yea, Im sure the Master Teras Kasi and Master Commando guy who will know have a 10k pet 60% all resists non-ch pet will say he is not belittling me the MCHat all, lol. You think these combat professions need more than a 2-3k hamm pet your delusional.
So please post your feelings on this so atleast we can get some REAL information flowing on what it is we as a whole are looking for out of our pets.. I know for one I like being able to change a creature around. I dont feel that we should be comparing anything that we make against anything in the wild. As soon as we sample a creature and combine it even it is all the same DNA we are making a COMPLETLY differant creature becuase of how we are expirmenting it.. If anything I feel we should be able to spend points to REMOVE stats from a creature in creation..
Please only real information from this point on.. Leave the egos and additude at the door.
Ok you asked for real information, how about 5 months worth of combat xp in this game. I've be smuggler, Commando, Pistoleer, and Teras Kasi. This is not an opinion based on feelings, its based on fact. You give a Commando/BountyHunter/TerasKasi/Pistoleer/Rifleman/, lol any combat profession, the use of a 10k 60%resist pet that person will be solo the rest of his/her gamelife. Devs will need to hand out capes with S on them if your idea of what a non-CH pet should be comes pass.