Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: nocious kahmurrith dna the real information and rant
I do NOT see any first generation dna being bugged. (clone samples seem severely bugged, but someone else can debate that)
To me, the problem lies with the system that calculates creature level.
This seems to be most apparent when using samples from creatures with armor. When you examine a creature you will see its armor rating and up to three categories for the armors resistance. Special Protections, effectiveness and vulnerabilities.
The CL calculating system seems to put LESS weight on effectiveness, even though a creature with 60% special protection will absorb the same amount of damage as a creature with 60% effectiveness.
Another thing worth noting, we can not experiment special protections.
In the following examples, all dna will be same type and have light armor.
If we use samples from a creature with special protection 60% the end creature will have that same 60% special protection reguardless of how many experimentation pts we use. It won't have the armor rating until we experiment physics enough, but it will still have the 60% resist.
If we use samples from a creature with 60% effectiveness, the end creature before experimentations might only show 20% with no armor, and we can experiment this up to 45% with no armor, once you hit 45% then next experimentation pt will change the template to ARMORED and 0-10%. We could keep experimenting this up until we hit the source dna's effectiveness of 60%.
When we do the final combine, effectiveness has a chance of gaining 1-4 pts, where as special protections always (in my experiments anyway) stay the same as the source dna.
The problem with the so called 'bugged' dna is that they don't have ANY special protections. Nocuous Kamurith have effectiveness 0% across the board (any damage type not listed when examining creatures falls in the effectiveness category) Kamurith defilers have 5% effectiveness across the board and Merek Death Heads have 10% effectiveness across the board.
Merek Death Heads are approximately lvl 55. Anyone can take 5 AA samples or better combine and experiment the effectiveness up to 45% (right before the armor sticks) and end up with a lvl 22-23 creature with 8K+ hams 45-49% resist to ALL not to mention 590 damage strong poison and strong disease. The same can be done with kamurith dna but with much lower damage and different specials and a bit more hams.
If you do the same thing with a creature that had nothing but special protections, the reduction in CL is not nearly as great.
Hopefully someone can get a bit of good outa my ramblings.
Ohhhh me dumb... thesaurus, dats a dinosaur right? I saw it on the discovery channel.... dius smart guy, me likes him cuz he gots brains
And please do avoid even attempting to answer the other questions. You'll fail miserably trying to find a logical leg to stand on.
Weed through the flame....weed through the egos...
Perhaps a bit of knowledge in there yet.
The armor revalation might be useful. I had hit an odd point where i could not get above 60% kenetic and light armor on a creature, even if using 5 slots ofjust 1 dna type of 75 kenetic, light.
Perhaps we have stumbled on to something.
Worth pointing out at least, for those sifting through garbage for info as I am.
Sumo, I've yet to see an "uber" sub-ten with AR1. The HAM on a creature is just that, Health, Action, Mind, so taking one pool and then saying "this is 9k HAM" is just plain wrong. Tals example pet is 6k HAM, not 9k, but why let the truth stand in the way of a good story?
And with the actual combat ability of it, I don't think it'd hold aggro very well when it'll be hitting for around 30 damage once every few combat rounds on an AR1 critter with 30% kin resists.
Of course, I haven't seen that many post from you and Tal on the AR1, 60% resists across the board, real 10k HAM, high damage super sub23's yet, but I guess it's only a matter of time...
Why are these non-CH better by leaps and bounds over non-CH before the revamp?
Dont know, thats an question to ask the devs. I dont read minds. As far as I know it is inteded for bio made pets to be better then wild ones. Hence my question (that hasnt been answered) what is the line between what is overpowered and not.
Where did the DEVs say we would be able to create non-CH pets which are leaps and bounds better than before the revamp?
Where did they say specifically what are skills would be and what was intended as far as limits to reducing/increasing cl. Go look at the previous post saying what was expected. As I have asked which you chose to remain stupid about, what is the line between a creature that is leaps and bounds better and what is intended. What exactly does leaps and bounds better then a revamp mean?
Where did the DEVs say that we'd be able to turn a CL30 wild pet into a CL2 bio-engineered pet?
see last reply. Again refernce to my question about what an acceptable reduction exactly is. Again, ask the devs.
Why do NO wild creatures of CL2 to 10 have a H or A or M of 10k?
Again, tell me what the line is instead of always refering to the extreme of the extreme. One trick pony, is that the only creature you can refer to? Are there no cl11 or high creatures you can refer to that are overpowering? Ask the devs?
Why do NO wild creatures have Armor 1?
Cause god wasnt as good a bioengineer as me? Cause the devs wanted there to be a reason for ch's to want to get pets from a BE? So its just cl2 HAM 10k creatures that upset you? its any cl10 or lower creature with light armor? Tell me why my cl10 Probot has medium armor then.
How much do you sell each of these creations for?
How does this question pertain to the discussion of where alleged bugs are and what was intended by the devs, or is it just another silly question so you can throw out a strawman argument? I sell them for what I can get for them and I do my absolute best in making the customer happy isntead of making some piece of fluff crap that they can get anywhere.If they deicide to pay a kazillionjillion creds for one thats there business not yours. (unless you somehow feel you have a stake in their money)If theres an error in communication or something I could have done better then I refund money or offer a discount. Basically though, my business practices are not really your concern, unless you are wanting to come to Radiant to buy a pet. But with your trollish, loutish behaviour I doubt that would be feasible. In your spare time do you chase down people who purchased cars at the Jag dealership and ask them what they paid for it?
You are obviously as unfamiliar with logic as you are with wit, lacking in both.
Read what I said again, I said normally. It's clear there is a bug there somewhere when you can get pets with the stats we're seeing but I seriously doubt resists are not calculated at all when the calculation works correctly. That doesn't make much sense. By the same logic, it certainly can't be counting ham and damage, as you say, since a cl 10 pet should never have 10k ham or 200+ damage. I'd more believe the crafting system is passing a bad value that's messing up the CL calculation. Maybe something in the CL calculation is throwing off the weighting on the resists, but if so, it's also playing with the ham calculation. The only person that really knows what "the" bug is Keldarin.
Tal-N wrote:
Talthazar wrote:
They simply need to make the CL calc look at all stats
I think normally it does, but whatever the bug is, is somehow throwing off the calculation.
I think you need to look again Talth, we all know that if you duplicate a wild animal such as the Mantirgue Reaper with it's 40% to kinetic and every and 70% to everything else then with every generation you'll find that the resistances are exactly the same. Essentially it's possible to have a CL10 pets with the same resistances as the CL55 Reaper. That goes to show that all stats are DEFINENTLY NOT being calculated.
meroc wrote:
Sumo, I've yet to see an "uber" sub-ten with AR1. The HAM on a creature is just that, Health, Action, Mind, so taking one pool and then saying "this is 9k HAM" is just plain wrong. Tals example pet is 6k HAM, not 9k, but why let the truth stand in the way of a good story?
CL2
9090 health / 4752 action / 4214 mind
43% to everything but stun
140-150 damage / 2.17 speed / 24% accuracy
And with the actual combat ability of it, I don't think it'd hold aggro very well when it'll be hitting for around 30 damage once every few combat rounds on an AR1 critter with 30% kin resists.
Of course, I haven't seen that many post from you and Tal on the AR1, 60% resists across the board, real 10k HAM, high damage super sub23's yet, but I guess it's only a matter of time...
Okay, then show me a single creature CL2 to CL10 that has 4214minimum HAM with 40% resists.
You're vastly underestimating the importance of speed. 2.17 vs 2.0 is minimiscule at best.
To Hit, unless you can show me some log parses (and I'll be HIGHLY grateful if you can, honestly I will because its a question I haven't gotten to tackle) showing that To Hit is linear function... I don't think it is highly important.
The answer is that 4kHAM cl2 to cl10's don't exist.
DiusFidus wrote:
Well if answering the questions will help you be less overly dramatic and drama queenesque, why certainly I'll answer them in as vague and uninformative and you answered mine.
To this all I can say is, pot meet the kettle.
Why are these non-CH better by leaps and bounds over non-CH before the revamp?
Dont know, thats an question to ask the devs. I dont read minds. As far as I know it is inteded for bio made pets to be better then wild ones. Hence my question (that hasnt been answered) what is the line between what is overpowered and not.
It is a question you need to answer because you are putting forth that they are NOT overpowered. Given the wealth of evidence to the intent of the creature revamp, these pets are vastly overpowered. You, of course, turn a blind eye and refuse to consider the context of 1) the strength of current wild creatures, 2) the devs decisions in the past with obvious incongruencies (medium armor pets, baby DNA pets, probot changes, etc), 3) the strength of tamable animals prior to the change and what they were changed into. You turn a completely blind eye to the published desires of the Devs and refuse to consider the intent.
Where did the DEVs say we would be able to create non-CH pets which are leaps and bounds better than before the revamp?
Where did they say specifically what are skills would be and what was intended as far as limits to reducing/increasing cl. Go look at the previous post saying what was expected. As I have asked which you chose to remain stupid about, what is the line between a creature that is leaps and bounds better and what is intended. What exactly does leaps and bounds better then a revamp mean?
I'm well versed in what Kel told us. I'm also fairly well versed in what happened to EVERY creature that was tamable before. Again you turn a blind eye to what happened to EVERY creature in the game under the creature revamp. In the realm of tamable pets, I can't think of a single instance where the relative power of the creature post-patch exceeds the power of the creature pre-patch.. nevermind that the power increase in these non-CH pets is multi-fold.
Where did the DEVs say that we'd be able to turn a CL30 wild pet into a CL2 bio-engineered pet?
see last reply. Again refernce to my question about what an acceptable reduction exactly is. Again, ask the devs.
Again, hiding your head in the sand and refusing to consider the wealth of evidence of what was intended. It is a pattern... hear no evil, see no evil, do no evil. Heck I can make pets with baby-DNA it *MUST* be intended... at least until the Devs see it and go OH NO.
Why do NO wild creatures of CL2 to 10 have a H or A or M of 10k?
Again, tell me what the line is instead of always refering to the extreme of the extreme. One trick pony, is that the only creature you can refer to? Are there no cl11 or high creatures you can refer to that are overpowering? Ask the devs?
Again, point to me a SINGLE instance to back up your point. Throw in the red herring of CL11+'s... thats fine, the problem is there also, but just not as overpowering or incongruent. I *can* agree that the highier you go up the CL ladder, the more we have to depend on the Devs for their guidance, however, the stuff popping out at CL10's and lower are glaring to the point blindingly overpowered. But sure, avoid the point, you're good at it, especially because you can't show where the CL system is applied in this manner to wild animals.
Why do NO wild creatures have Armor 1?
Cause god wasnt as good a bioengineer as me? Cause the devs wanted there to be a reason for ch's to want to get pets from a BE? So its just cl2 HAM 10k creatures that upset you? its any cl10 or lower creature with light armor? Tell me why my cl10 Probot has medium armor then.
Humor, I can appreciate it... but it isn't evidence for, nor a foundation to build, the glaring omission of CL2 to 10's with light armor. In every single instance of light armor existing in the CL2 to 15 range, they were removed in this revamp. Why?
What is the HAM of your CL10 probot? HRM? Oh yeah, its 100 pts less than these creatures. Oh wait no, I was wrong! It is 1000pts less. Hrm, wrong again.... see a pattern?
Keep blindly wishing that Armor was meant for a CL10....
How much do you sell each of these creations for?
How does this question pertain to the discussion of where alleged bugs are and what was intended by the devs, or is it just another silly question so you can throw out a strawman argument? I sell them for what I can get for them and I do my absolute best in making the customer happy isntead of making some piece of fluff crap that they can get anywhere.If they deicide to pay a kazillionjillion creds for one thats there business not yours. (unless you somehow feel you have a stake in their money)If theres an error in communication or something I could have done better then I refund money or offer a discount. Basically though, my business practices are not really your concern, unless you are wanting to come to Radiant to buy a pet. But with your trollish, loutish behaviour I doubt that would be feasible. In your spare time do you chase down people who purchased cars at the Jag dealership and ask them what they paid for it?
You are obviously as unfamiliar with logic as you are with wit, lacking in both.
Yeah me dumb dumb fool. Me no nothing. I'll make this my last post, wasted enough time on a dullard such as yourself. I'll send ya a big ole slice of humble pie when you see this fixed. No need to acknowledge your receipt of it, I'll use my ESPN.
Well I am so happy that everyone has taken the time to read this thread to get the information from it and not attack each other. Ohh well. So I have put my ego away.. And am trying to just get this out in the open before we as a group of people self nerf ourselfs.. Before reading any further please put your ego away. And only respond to this with real data. If you feel I am wrong just point it out with what you feel the real data is.. Ok?
CL1-10 are for NON-CH
CL11-70 are for CH's
If anyone disputes this please stop playing the game now 
(That is just a joke peeps)
Ok so now lets narrow this down. The whole point of people ranting about NON-CH vs CH creatures is becuase people are worried that what is the point in being a CH if you get such an uber pet. And it demeens the class of CH.. That is what I am taking from the whole argument. Becuase lets face it. If there was no CH class and all people could throw pets this wouldnt even be an argument about the CL as no one would really care. Right?
NON-CH can throw 1 creature that has N stats and max of 2 specials
CH can throw up to 3 creatures that has N stats and max of 6 specials
Now with that said what I am hearing from some people is that Resistances should only be for CH's creatures
CH's should be the only ones with pets with a HAM > 2500??
CH's should be able to be better then NON-CH (This would be a duh! But had to list it)
CH creatures should hit like a truck
NON-CH creatures should hit like a Vasser Girl in a boxing match.
So if I am missing anything please add to this or point out what I am saying is wrong..
So now lets look at the current system. Before the so called nerf is incomming and changes are to be made.
If I take a Rancor and make it a CL 1 and give it with all its stats to everyone in the game. With that said now a CH can throw 3 of them.. Thus making them 3x better then anyone else. Correct?
Now that is just silly to think so lets look at what is really being made right now
10K HAM hits for 200-220 (Best I have seen) Resists up to 49% to all stats with the so-called Bugged DNA
Best CH creature in the game that I have made
12.8K Ham 60 Kinetic 90 Heat/Blast/Energy/Cold/Elect/Acid/Stun hits for 670-680 CL 69
Now which one will win? Hands down I would say the CH pet to pet.. Now that is PVP.. So what is the non-chers gaining? Other then the ability to lay back a little easier in PVE.. Throw the pet so they dont have to get thier butts whopped while they do thier thing..
I dont see what the issue with non-chers having a pet that is actually usefull.. But now on the other hand I do feel that Non-chers should not have a pet that hits hard if they want to have a meat-shield for them.. So I think in essence that the current system in place is good shy of a few issues.. Those issues are..
CL should totally be based on damage of the creature and I would also think Armor should play a part.. That should be another bennifit of a CH to be able to control a creature with armor.. So if you want to create a NON-CH pet that hits for 20-30 with 12K ham that should be allowable for a CL 2-3 pet.. So in essence..
CL = MAX DAMAGE OF CREATURE/10...
So a creature that hits for 200 would be a 20 CL.. Regardless of its ham.. or resists. As I feel it doesnt give any advantage over a CH or belittle them in anyway other then the fact of bringing a little happiness to the other classes..
So please post your feelings on this so atleast we can get some REAL information flowing on what it is we as a whole are looking for out of our pets.. I know for one I like being able to change a creature around. I dont feel that we should be comparing anything that we make against anything in the wild. As soon as we sample a creature and combine it even it is all the same DNA we are making a COMPLETLY differant creature becuase of how we are expirmenting it.. If anything I feel we should be able to spend points to REMOVE stats from a creature in creation..
Please only real information from this point on.. Leave the egos and additude at the door.
OK...I'm certain this is a mistake, but here I go! If my numbers are slightly off, please ignore the minutiae and insult me based on content 
Also note, I am mostly discussing pure tanking here...
Let us use the example (much used I know) of the probot, both pre- and post-nerf. They have medium armor and 40% resists, with about 3000 and 800 hams respectively.
I believe each "layer" of armor absorbs 50% (I've also seen 40%), so medium means 25% gets through. 40% resists means 60% gets through. 25% * 60% = 15% So 15% of all damage done to a probot actually gets through to the hams (21.6% if armor does 40% per layer, not 50%). So we divide 800 and 3000 by 15% we get roughly 5000 and 20,000 respectively.
So, ignoring damage dealing and special attacks (a significant factor, I know), anyone can have the equivalent of a non-CH tank pet with 5K hams and no resists, and anyone with enough money to buy a pre-nerf probot can have the equivalent of a non-CH tank pet with 20K hams and no resists. Those same pets are the equivalent (in terms of damage sponging, tanking ability) as 2.5K hams and 10K hams non-CH pets with 50% resists or light armor AND are equivalent to 1.25K hams and 5K hams non-CH pets with 50% resists _and_ light armor.
These are the currently existant droids and we have yet to see what the droid engineer revamp will provide in the future.
So, is a CL5 pet with 9K hams and 50% resists broken/bugged?Almost certainlyso. But current probots (which most people mock)are about one-fourth as good and pre-nerf probots (how much do these sell for anyway?) are _better_ in terms of pure tanking.
I understand both sides of the argument (as well as the side that seems to enjoy sitting by, watching, and lobbing in the occasional hand grenade!), but what we _really_ need is some input by the devs (Thunderheart are you reading this?) to clear up the matter.
Is this:
A) Broken. Whoops...we made a boo-boo!
B) Slightly unbalanced. We need a little tweaking and tuning.
C) OK. Working more or less as planned.
And the whole non-CH critter issue may become irrelevant when we get a look at the combat droids in the pipeline.
-Lens Larque/Master Bio-Engineer/Eclipse
P.S. For the record, my non-CH pets pretty much stink except for a couple I made at lower levels.
That was it Knole! Scary Movie 3, the blonde was saying it. Something like "call it womens intuition or even ESPN but I kow what dangers around"
By my defintion, no it would not, no more then Master Commandos or Teras Kasi Masters exploiting the system with the damage output they can create. As I have said often though, I dont attempt to speak for the devs and their opinion may be different then mine. Theirs is the one that matters. Not mine, not Tal-n's etc. The lowering CL significantly can be done with many creatures, not just kamuriths, or deaths heads. Raising cl significantly can also be done with many creatures. There are many ways of doing this. One of the easiest is to just pay attention to the creature you are sampling. Using only bark mite burrower queen dna, using only vhq or hq samples and using all experiment points with great successes with the same distribution per slot for the experiment points, Ive created Kimogilias that range from cl 54 to cl 66. Thats a range of 12 creature levels. Thats how the game is designed. In fact a cl62 kimo had 11.8k health,11.7k action, 12.4k mind, while a cl60 kimo 2cls less had 12.8khealth 12k Action and 12.1k Mind. IMO the system was designed to be controlled, its not random so thats what I am doing. If the devs feel a creature isnt balanced then they should fix it. There is no clear line between balanced and overbalanced or what have you. Is acl9 pet with 7k average ham and 44 in each resist and no armor a balanced pet ? What if it has the hit and attack speed of a wild gnort? is it balanced then? Is a light armor cl10 kaadu balanced? What if it only has 821 action and 40-50 damage rain and no resists? IS the cl54kimo more balanced then the cll66 kimo when they are both made with the same creature dna and process? If its only kamuriths and deaths head then why can I do it with others? Is all dna bugged? Should everyone jsut quit the bio engineering field until the devs decide the answers to these questions? I don't intend to myself, but Ive got to warn everyone that every animal on Endor and Dath Ive taken samples from are as bugged as kamurith and merek death head.
I'd like to see the tc post about bugged dna. Not doubting it, I'd just like to see their reasoning.
DiusFidus wrote:
That was it Knole! Scary Movie 3, the blonde was saying it. Something like "call it womens intuition or even ESPN but I kow what dangers around"
Ahhh...my mind is at ease now...funny frigin movie!
By my defintion, no it would not, no more then Master Commandos or Teras Kasi Masters exploiting the system with the damage output they can create. As I have said often though, I dont attempt to speak for the devs and their opinion may be different then mine. Theirs is the one that matters. Not mine, not Tal-n's etc. The lowering CL significantly can be done with many creatures, not just kamuriths, or deaths heads. Raising cl significantly can also be done with many creatures. There are many ways of doing this. One of the easiest is to just pay attention to the creature you are sampling. Using only bark mite burrower queen dna, using only vhq or hq samples and using all experiment points with great successes with the same distribution per slot for the experiment points, Ive created Kimogilias that range from cl 54 to cl 66. Thats a range of 12 creature levels. Thats how the game is designed. In fact a cl62 kimo had 11.8k health,11.7k action, 12.4k mind, while a cl60 kimo 2cls less had 12.8khealth 12k Action and 12.1k Mind. IMO the system was designed to be controlled, its not random so thats what I am doing. If the devs feel a creature isnt balanced then they should fix it. There is no clear line between balanced and overbalanced or what have you. Is acl9 pet with 7k average ham and 44 in each resist and no armor a balanced pet ? What if it has the hit and attack speed of a wild gnort? is it balanced then? Is a light armor cl10 kaadu balanced? What if it only has 821 action and 40-50 damage rain and no resists? IS the cl54kimo more balanced then the cll66 kimo when they are both made with the same creature dna and process? If its only kamuriths and deaths head then why can I do it with others? Is all dna bugged? Should everyone jsut quit the bio engineering field until the devs decide the answers to these questions? I don't intend to myself, but Ive got to warn everyone that every animal on Endor and Dath Ive taken samples from are as bugged as kamurith and merek death head.
Fair enough. Like others have said, it maynot be the DNA but the way the system is calculateing CL and that some DNA throws the calculation off more than others because of a certainvalue in the stats. Who really knows except "maybe
I'd like to see the tc post about bugged dna. Not doubting it, I'd just like to see their reasoning.