Bio Engineer Archive

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Dreamland wrote:

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Warryyr wrote:

First question: Did Developers intend to create the opportunity to 100% AFK macro entertainment? Yes or No. Every single Entertainer deserves to know the answer to this right now. Given your message to us, we need this answer. It's a simple question, with a simple yes or no answer. Did Devs intend to let players create Entertainer buffbots.

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I second that point we need to know the answer to that and need to know it now. Because all the people attacking us seem to think the answer is yes.

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Hang on here a sec. This definitely underscores an important issue, but I really don't think this is the pressing question we need to ask. Even assuming we get an answer, there is a very simple and safe answer to this question - no. The devs most probably did not *intend* to make entertainers 100% macroable, and I'm most certain that they do not *intend* for players to create buffbots. The devs did create the flourish and mind healing system as it is, though I honestly have no idea whether they finished it because to me it seems incomplete. They also created the macro system and intentionally included loops and recursion - TH has said this. Then later the devs added in the buff system, perhaps hastily because it seems to me again that it was not completely thought out. The devs simply created the mechanics and the tools, but how the players use those mechanics and tools may or may not have anything to do with the devs *intentions*. People can be very creative and come up with numerous variations the devs might never have imagined.

Now during Beta the devs must have known that entertainers could be 100% macroed - some people in beta figured out that trick, and used it again when the game went live (at that time I wondered how there were Master Dancers within the first week while it was taking me a long time to level up, and why every now and then I'd run across a dancer in the corner who never seemed to interact with anyone). While this was probably not intended, it was created. TH already stated that the extensive macro system was originally created to give everyone an equal footing with those who might resort to 3rd party software to automate in-game functions. I'm not sure exactly what in-game functions they thought people would try to automate - maybe things like surveying, maybe crafting, maybe profession leveling to some degree, maybe even spambots. As it pertains to entertaining, I think they inadvertently created a system that was 100% macroable, and it probably went on some bug list but with a low priority. After all with all the things they undoubtedly had to work on, they probably figured that mostly social types would play entertainers, and that they would want to be ATK at least some of the time so it wouldn't be that big a deal if some of them do some AFK leveling until they could get around to fixing it. Heck the first few months or so were pretty cool as an entertainer, even though there were a few AFK'ers whether we knew it or not at the time, but ultimately they made three big mistakes that have led to our current problems.

Mistake #1: Their first and biggest mistake of all - they completely underestimated the creativity in which players would not only use the macro system, but ultimately abuse it. They may have originally meant it cut down on third-party software abuse and allow average and casual players to have access to tools that only the more technologically savvy players might use, but they ended up creating such a powerful macro system that it removed the need to even play the game at all anymore in some cases, and put it in the hands of everyone. I think we all know the many ways this system is being abused, so I don't need to elaborate, but this mistake has finally gotten so out of hand that the devs have finally acknowledged it and decided to fix it (we just don't know when). I think it's ironic that one of the devs, Pex maybe, once said something about how you should never underestimate the lengths a player will go through in a multiplayer game to avoid interacting with other people. I don't remember what topic it was actually in response to, but clearly in this case the devs failed to heed this advice, and failed miserably, though at least they have admitted it and vowed to change it. This one mistake cascaded into two others.

Mistake #2: Hologrinding - this, I think, more than any other thing falls under the category of "What were they thinking???". Now we know they said that they thought it might be fun for players to encourage them to try other professions in the game, and there were players who actually took this the right way and did try out some or all of the professions they mastered, and there were even some for whom hologrinding gave them "something to do" in the game and they liked that; but by in large the devs again seem to have underestimated the lengths that players, and especially the powergamers, would go through to shortcut the entire concept of profession mastery in the game to get to get to the elite goal of attaining a Jedi. It was about this same time, that people were figuring out how to loop macros, and what was a curiousity or minor nuisance at first turned into a plague that was probably unleashed by the first combat player that found out he had to master Dancer. After this the "secret" of AFK macros spread like wildfire, and cantinas filled with AFK zombies.

This one design decision was flawed on many levels, and really upset the balance of the entire game. Too many people were no longer playing the game but just hologrinding - AFK whenever possible and for as long as possible. Not being one of the designers I can't say how much thought went into creating this system, but it certainly seems like a quick and easy solution to the problem of a Jedi quest system, though not a well thought-out one. I just don't know whether it was supposed to be the final system, or if it was just meant as a temporary one until a more permanent solution could be worked out (I suspect the latter). In either case the devs admitted a mistake, and in this case, probably because of its effect on the entire game, fairly quickly started work on changes to revamping the process and eliminat the profession mastery system. Unfortunately it was too late because the genie was well out of the bottle when they made their third mistake.

Mistake #3 The implementation of a mind buff system that was completely macroable. Now here you could reasonably question why the devs would release this into the mix with the rising hoardes of AFK zombies. Surely by now they were beginning to realize how people were finding ways to use and abuse macros and that this system allowed a method of buffing that could be accomplished with no user interaction whatsoever. Maybe it was the case that it was developed by a group that was less associated with the current state of the game, maybe the ball was already rolling and they had already made the decision to add this to the game before things had begun to deteriorate, maybe they were trying to respond to a need or implement an intended buffing system, but did so a bit hastily and with insufficient design, or maybe they were aware of the problem and simply didn't anticipate the trouble it would cause (maybe they honestly never expected that many people would set up alternate accounts and run them almost non-stop to give away free buffs). It could certainly seem intentional. Now maybe I'm just naive, but I really don't believe that the devs would intentionally try to sabotage our professions. What would be the point? Before this time there were no mind buffs and people were already AFK'ing, why would they intentionally introduce a new mechanic just to give people more reason to leave their characters unattended? Even if they did just want to eliminate our professions, why not just announce that they were going to do away with the Entertainer professions entirely and be done with it? They surely would have gotten far less grief and gotten past it a lot sooner rather than intentionally trying to make our profession so annoying that we would complain for a while, but eventually give up and go away on our own.

Now what's my point in all this? Well I think the devs are guilty of bad decisions (some of which they've admitted to), probably rushed and poorly thought out development in some cases, and certainly neglect, but I really don't think they're guilty of intending for the creation of buffbots. That's why I don't see the original question as really being an important one to ask, because it can be answered without giving us any useful insight into the nature of our problem, and does nothing to help us see an end to our plight.

If I could get the answer to one question from Tiggs or another developer, it might be "How can you allow three professions, an entire playstyle, and even a whole dimension of the game to be almost completely destroyed by nothing less than an abuse of an in game system without doing something to stop it?" How can you justify allowing buffbots to completely replace our functional purpose in the game without making a change? How can you possibly punish a live player for taking out their frustrations on nothing more than a jiggling macro? Why would you waste your valuable CSR resources babysitting unattended characters when the owners of those characters can't be bothered to take care of them? How can you continue to allow our intended cantina environment to be cluttered with lifeless automatons? Why has it been allowed to go on for so long, and unless you can offer us some kind of solution in the very near future, why should we continue to put up with it? Something has to be done and soon. Either the dev team needs to come up with some kind of temporary solution, or they need to reconsider their policies before the rest of us give up in frustration. Haven't we suffered enough??

Message Edited by PoetDancer on 11-04-2004 11:31 PM

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PoetDancer wrote:

I think another mistake was the ability to have multiple instances run from a single ISP. This made "accessory characters" possible, since a player could both set an entertainer buffer,and do other things at the same time with a primary character. This to me is the most important ingredient in the tools that go into unattended buffing.

Message Edited by PoetDancer on 11-04-2004 11:31 PM

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Jaguarrr wrote:

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PoetDancer wrote:

I think another mistake was the ability to have multiple instances run from a single ISP. This made "accessory characters" possible, since a player could both set an entertainer buffer,and do other things at the same time with a primary character. This to me is the most important ingredient in the tools that go into unattended buffing.

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ISP (Internet Service Provider), huh? I guess you mean IP-Number (Internet Protocol).

Well why is it possible to play SWG in multiple instances from one IP?

Let me give you an example:

Joe SW-Geek has a family of wife and 3 children. They all like to play SWG, so daddy buys an account for everyone, luckily everyone got a PC in the family, and for Joe, beeing a geek, set up a network so that everyone can surf with the one IP that they got from their ISP.

How does that work?

Joe has a router, the router hides the little network from the mean internet and basicly says: "I'm alone dude, ok I surf enough for 10 people, but I'm alone, really." The internet doesnt really care though and sends Joe and his family the requested stuff of whatever they wanted.

What would happen if you couldn't multiple instances from one IP?

Joe would have to buy 4 additional ISP contracts to get 4 additional IPs to play with his family at the same time. What do you pay your ISP in a month? Also keep in mind that you most likely have to get 4 additional phone numbers.

There is always more than one side of view. The example above can be adapted to a university or company, then you maybe have 10, 20 or 50 players that CANT play because someone is already playing.

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MadLeprechaun wrote:

Tiggs, thanks for ACTING like you actually care about our profession, for those of us who are a part of every profession or are looking into other professions we know that you have posted this exact same thread and stickied it on every single profession forum......you are just another treat the Def's threw to us to try and keep us satisfied.....

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MadLeprechaun wrote:

Tiggs, thanks for ACTING like you actually care about our profession, for those of us who are a part of every profession or are looking into other professions we know that you have posted this exact same thread and stickied it on every single profession forum......

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This is why she posted this:

I am going through a few professions at a time so if you don't see this post in another forum you participate in, do not worry. I will get to the other forums in due time

Case closed, thanks

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MadLeprechaun wrote:

I'm just saying this is what i see....the same exact post in every profession forum. it looks a little...uh.....incriminating for lack of a better word. yes i know tiggs has posted back on some of the threads but how can she possibly give each profession the attention it deserves when she is doing this with all of them. I think SOE needs to hire a some more people so that each profession can get the attention it deserves instead of sending one representative to handle all of the problems.....that's all i'm sayin

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First of all, no, you don't see the same post in every profession forum because she hasn't made it to every profession forum yet. The reason she hasn't is because, as has been stated, she's doing a few professions at a time, precisely because she knows that she can't focus on all the professions at the same time with the attention she'd like to give.
Furthermore, this is more attention than at least the Entertainer professions have gotten than before Tiggs was hired. Do you then blame her for doing more than has been done before, because it's not as much as you'd like there to be? Sure, it's the same form letter, but she has replied to every one of these threads in the past 'rounds' that I've seen.
And I don't think SOE hired Tiggs and said "ok, well now we have one extra person, so we have enough attention for every profession." They know one person can't handle everything, that's why there are two representatives (TH and Tiggs), as well as the correspondent system, and occassionally other devs read/post in these forums.
It's more than there was before, and it's specifically being done in a way so that she can handle it (in small groups of professions), not to mention this is for her benefit to get a better feel for the professions, so maybe lay off a bit.