Bio Engineer Archive

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Eskie wrote:
I am looking at it as a player healing and crafting all medical items for 140 skill points and given the ability at the same extent for 140 skill points post-CU.

I know, we've covered that.

I also say a Master BE crafting pets, additives and medical items is a better crafter than a BE 0004 just crafting medical items.

Not in the med side of things, which is a large part of the BE profession post CU.

And frankly, since BEs _never_ asked for medical crafting and doctors never _wanted_ to get rid of the crafting branch, BEs not only wanting to be equal, but better in the medical market _can_ be viewed as being greedy and trying to take advantage of other players.

Or it could be viewed that they want BE to be the same as every other crafting profession, wherein a master rank has advantages over expert ranks (4444). Again, their argument is philosophical, master BE being better at all four expert ranks (4444) makes sense.

I believe there is a good reason why on TC-Ep3 medical exp caps at BE 0004 and all medical schems are granted with BE 0004, and I am pretty sure that reason is because the devs also think doctors should be able to do what they have been doing before at no additional skill point cost. I am pretty sure the devs thought twice before changing BE exp +100 at MBE to med exp +100 at BE 0004, forcing BEs to play the 12pt game and allowing current doctors to use the medic SP they can free up to keep all of their crafting.

I agree with you, the devs are throwing us crafting docs a huge bone, lessening the blow of already being severely nerfed the way we are. I also believe that this thread is a study in philosophical discussion and won't change the dev's minds one iota, (I really believe that).

I also believe the reason for moving medical crafting to BE is not that the devs want current docs to get out of the crafting, but to keep doctors from gaining additional combat benefits like health and armor through the acquisition of crafting boxes, which would have caused a huge uproar among all other crafting professions.

Perhaps in part. I believe they got rid of the crafting line because they were upset that doctors, (in their minds this directly translates to healers), were bastardizing this noble profession by daring to craft and buff instead of playing the profession exactly the way they wanted us too, by healing. They want the doctor profession to be like the cleric in EQ, walking ambulance...

So a MBE is a better pet, additive and medical crafter than a BE 0004 medical crafter, simply because the BE 0004 can hardly craft additives and pets. The MBE _still_ _is_ _better_ than the BE 0004.

Uh huh. The fact they can keep their existing pets/tissues gig doesn't make them better than us. When it comes to crafting meds, an MBE is inferior to a 0004 BE with SEA's, and equal to one afterwards, where the subject of med crafting is concerned.

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TarMangani wrote:

(...)Uh huh. The fact they can keep their existing pets/tissues gig doesn't make them better than us. When it comes to crafting meds, an MBE is inferior to a 0004 BE with SEA's, and equal to one afterwards, where the subject of med crafting is concerned.

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Exactly - "where the subject of med crafting is concerned". A Combat Medic 0040 is equal to a Master Combat medic where subject of crafting healing packs is concerned. A Doctor 0004 is equal to a Master Doctor where the subject of Stim crafting is concerned. But both the Master Combat Medic and the Master Doctor have other markets which give them an advantage over the 0004 dabblers, being buffs and area poisons / diseases respectively.

Also, you always try to come back at the subject of SEAs, saying a BE 0004 with SEAs would be a better crafter than the MBE without SEAs. First of all, this doesnt mean "a better crafter", but just that there are more experimentation points available to him. This is a common concept in SWG.

An Artisan 4400 with SEAs has more experimentation than a Master Artisan without SEAs. A CM 0040 with SEAs has more experimentation than a MCM w/o SEAs. A Doctor 0004 with SEAs has more experimentation than a MD w/o SEAs. But is the dabbler a better crafter than the Master? No, because the Master has the schematics to allow them to craft for markets the dabbler will never be able to enter. Overall, the Master still is the better crafter, because he has more sales opportunities than the non-master, being unrivaled in the markets the non-master is not able to enter.

You can never compare a non-master with SEAs to a Master w/o SEAs, because those SEAs are as easy accessible to the Master than to the dabbler. The dabbler spent a lot of money on the SEAs, the Master just banked some xp and acquired the master title. But the Master could also buy the necessary SEAs to stay ahead of the dabbler with SEAs. Either compare Masters and Non-Masters without SEAs, or assume both to have SEAs.

But as it stands now, we are repeating the same arguments over and over again, not getting anywhere.

So is there any idea on how we could get some progress into this?

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Eskie wrote:

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TarMangani wrote:

(...)
So Arthur Dent should start the thread and you guys mention the med schematics and she can disagree! LOL. In all seriousness, without med schems in MBE, there really isn't ANY point in moving some schems at all. If the sole purpose would be to move some tissue schems up, it'd be a wasted effort.

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No. Valueable pet and additive schems would be made inaccessible to BE 0404 dabblers, the ones that choose to spend 14 skill points more than they need for a current MD. In no other crafting profession one gains full crafting capabilities in a market for just 14 more skill points. It would serve to protect current BEs from former docs invading their current markets with 12 point suits. This protection is what current BEs do not have if CU goes live as it is designed right now. BEs deserve to be protected in their current markets, though.

Asking for more than keeping what one has at no additional cost is taking away from somebody else.

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The effort to rewrite MBE schems w/o fixing it in it's entirety would be a wasted effort. No need to discuss the other sides of the debate, we already knowthe different sides of it.

So we just produced a huge thread and we come out with "let it stay as it is on TC-Ep3 and wait for a BE revamp"?

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Eskie wrote:
So we just produced a huge thread and we come out with "let it stay as it is on TC-Ep3 and wait for a BE revamp"?

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Eskie wrote:

Exactly - "where the subject of med crafting is concerned". A Combat Medic 0040 is equal to a Master Combat medic where subject of crafting healing packs is concerned. A Doctor 0004 is equal to a Master Doctor where the subject of Stim crafting is concerned. But both the Master Combat Medic and the Master Doctor have other markets which give them an advantage over the 0004 dabblers, being buffs and area poisons / diseases respectively.

Also, you always try to come back at the subject of SEAs, saying a BE 0004 with SEAs would be a better crafter than the MBE without SEAs. First of all, this doesnt mean "a better crafter", but just that there are more experimentation points available to him. This is a common concept in SWG.

An Artisan 4400 with SEAs has more experimentation than a Master Artisan without SEAs. A CM 0040 with SEAs has more experimentation than a MCM w/o SEAs. A Doctor 0004 with SEAs has more experimentation than a MD w/o SEAs. But is the dabbler a better crafter than the Master? No, because the Master has the schematics to allow them to craft for markets the dabbler will never be able to enter. Overall, the Master still is the better crafter, because he has more sales opportunities than the non-master, being unrivaled in the markets the non-master is not able to enter.

You can never compare a non-master with SEAs to a Master w/o SEAs, because those SEAs are as easy accessible to the Master than to the dabbler. The dabbler spent a lot of money on the SEAs, the Master just banked some xp and acquired the master title. But the Master could also buy the necessary SEAs to stay ahead of the dabbler with SEAs. Either compare Masters and Non-Masters without SEAs, or assume both to have SEAs.

But as it stands now, we are repeating the same arguments over and over again, not getting anywhere.

So is there any idea on how we could get some progress into this?

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You want to make progress? Read your own words I have highlighted in red. You just said the only way to keep a master better than a dabbler is to move schematics to master level. This means medical enhancer and poison buffs need to be moved to MBE, not the 0004 line.

I read my own words, and I see I wrote: The dabbler is as good as the master in one market, while not being able to compete with the master in other markets. Moving this observation over to BE, this means the BE 0004 is as good in the medical market as the master, while being inferior in the additive and pet markets.
So where did I contradict myself?

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Eskie wrote:
But to be honest, Im getting a little tired of this conversation now. Im just happy with what is on TC-Ep3 now, I offered to support current BE markets to be protected from dabbling ex-Doctors, but instead of moving to a common ground, most people not just want to be protected from the dabblers, but want my market also. Im not offering to stay out of your market and have you invade my market in return, so Ill just stick with what is on TC-Ep3 now. Good luck with your efforts, im not supporting any dabbler-protection if I get my arm chewed off while offering a hand to help.

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I think what it comes down to is your argument is "you stay on your side of the fence and I'll stay on mine, I'll even support changes that don't allow me to come to your side of the fence!"

They're side is "there is no fence."

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TarMangani wrote:

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Eskie wrote:
But to be honest, Im getting a little tired of this conversation now. Im just happy with what is on TC-Ep3 now, I offered to support current BE markets to be protected from dabbling ex-Doctors, but instead of moving to a common ground, most people not just want to be protected from the dabblers, but want my market also. Im not offering to stay out of your market and have you invade my market in return, so Ill just stick with what is on TC-Ep3 now. Good luck with your efforts, im not supporting any dabbler-protection if I get my arm chewed off while offering a hand to help.

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I think what it comes down to is your argument is "you stay on your side of the fence and I'll stay on mine, I'll even support changes that don't allow me to come to your side of the fence!"

They're side is "there is no fence."

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Yup - thats how I think it is, also. Although some say there is no fence and they want all the green grass also

So Ill probably be going 0404 then instead of just 0004...

Message Edited by Eskie on 04-14-2005 04:08 AM

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Eskie wrote:

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TarMangani wrote:

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Eskie wrote:
But to be honest, Im getting a little tired of this conversation now. Im just happy with what is on TC-Ep3 now, I offered to support current BE markets to be protected from dabbling ex-Doctors, but instead of moving to a common ground, most people not just want to be protected from the dabblers, but want my market also. Im not offering to stay out of your market and have you invade my market in return, so Ill just stick with what is on TC-Ep3 now. Good luck with your efforts, im not supporting any dabbler-protection if I get my arm chewed off while offering a hand to help.

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I think what it comes down to is your argument is "you stay on your side of the fence and I'll stay on mine, I'll even support changes that don't allow me to come to your side of the fence!"

They're side is "there is no fence."

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Yup - thats how I think it is, also. Although some say there is no fence and they want all the green grass also

So Ill probably be going 0404 then instead of just 0004...

Message Edited by Eskie on 04-14-2005 04:08 AM

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it's their grass so why not?

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Eskie wrote:



Exactly - "where the subject of med crafting is concerned". A Combat Medic 0040 is equal to a Master Combat medic where subject of crafting healing packs is concerned. A Doctor 0004 is equal to a Master Doctor where the subject of Stim crafting is concerned. But both the Master Combat Medic and the Master Doctor have other markets which give them an advantage over the 0004 dabblers, being buffs and area poisons / diseases respectively.

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Message Edited by MataHairy on 04-13-2005 12:52 PM

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Eskie wrote:
Hi Matta!

Didnt expect to see you here again after you have been away for several days now
This view of yours doesnt have anything to do with the fact that you are currently a pure crafting doc and would like to get rid of some competition from the docs who currently use all doctor skills by healing and crafting?
As soon as CU hits, you will be dropping MD and MCM, grab MBE and craft for the additive markets, also, all for a net gain in skill points, right?

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/wave to an Ahazi neighbor

No, my viewpoints dont really come from trying to protect my turf. I'm not concerned about my territory, people have been trying to steal my customers for over a year now and Im still going strong. I have a dedicated FS crafter, and if the changes go in as current he will be 0004 or 0404 BE and some merchant and maybe even another crafting prof. Since he is MD/MCM right now, I actually save a ton of skill points, regardless.

My concern is what is fairest to the current MBEs as well as the practicing docs.

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TarMangani wrote:

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Eskie wrote:

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TarMangani wrote:

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Eskie wrote:
But to be honest, Im getting a little tired of this conversation now. Im just happy with what is on TC-Ep3 now, I offered to support current BE markets to be protected from dabbling ex-Doctors, but instead of moving to a common ground, most people not just want to be protected from the dabblers, but want my market also. Im not offering to stay out of your market and have you invade my market in return, so Ill just stick with what is on TC-Ep3 now. Good luck with your efforts, im not supporting any dabbler-protection if I get my arm chewed off while offering a hand to help.

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I think what it comes down to is your argument is "you stay on your side of the fence and I'll stay on mine, I'll even support changes that don't allow me to come to your side of the fence!"

They're side is "there is no fence."

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Yup - thats how I think it is, also. Although some say there is no fence and they want all the green grass also

So Ill probably be going 0404 then instead of just 0004...

Message Edited by Eskie on 04-14-2005 04:08 AM

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it's their grass so why not?

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That is your opinion, but the devs actions currently say its my lawn, at least for the additive and medical markets. I agree with them on the medical market, but not on the additive market. But I will happily take it also. So - cya!