Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: Please put some experimental points at MBE level
Eskie wrote:
By moving some experimentation to the MBE box, the docs would lose their full crafting capabilities, while the BEs would gain an instant advantage over current MDs.
Not really considering the SEAs. We'd actually be one point ahead of 99% of them.
The MD would be put at a disadvantage, but this disadvantage is _not_ needed for game balancing purposes. So if at all possible, this road should not be taken. Instead, the current MBE should be made more outstanding compared to the MD/BE 0004 hybrid in another way.
Since moving experimentation is not a desireable option, because it would give BEs more for equal cost while nerfing current MDs, the former MD needs to be limited in BE crafting in some other way.
This is where I'd disagree with you. Two reasons:
1. It would givemaster BE's the advantage they deserve for being masters. This is their profession.
2. It's not BE crafting/MD crafting after the CU. It's all BE crafting.
These reasons are philosophical in nature of course, however valid if one considers the nature of the profession in that a master should outcraft a dabbler in all cases.
This could be done by giving an experimentation line to the BE 0004, while giving the MBE another experimentation line. This was my original suggestion which also got supported by several BEs in a voting thread in the BE forums. But I have to admit, this approach is flawed because it would make BE the only profession with +100 X experimentation at master and +100 Y experimentation at 0004.
I would argue this as you would maintain the, IMHO, false analogy that Med and BE need to be separate for some reason. Med is soon to be a BE line, not a separate line of some nature...
I counter-argue that in order to maintain the same continuity within crafting forums, master should be superior to dabbler.
Another option would be to make valueable schematics only accessible to masters. This is how several other professions currently make their Master more valueable than a dabbler: Artisan, Smuggler, Doctor and Combat Medic, to name a few.
This way of makeing MBE valueable to have does not involve nerfing other players but achieves the same goal as moving experimentation skills to master. Therefore, this is the better option.
I would agree with you on this over the exp points to master IF it included Med schematics. Does your analogy include this?
This will in effect introduce three classes of BEs: the 0004 medical crafters at 49 skill points, the MBE additive / medical crafter at 92 required skill points, and the MBE pet / medical / additive crafter with 121 skill points (hidden scout requirement for creature sampling).
Is this bad in my opinion? No. There are docs 0004 crafting stimpacks (yes, I know one!). There are CMs 0040 just for the single-target poisons and heals.
There is no bad/good in this case IMHO, there is simply what's right. Of course I would also argue the devs need to get off their collective butts and make the bugs within BE a priority sometime soon after the CU, however I don't see that happening either.
In the end it all comes down to one simple statement. Master should be superior to dabbler in the 0004 line in some way.
And as an addendum, you're arguments are very well thought out and articulated. I'd say we've effectively laid out both sides of the debate, now we need to wait to see what the devs think.
I think I'll pass out from shock if/when a dev actually responds to some posts in the DOC/CM/BE forums...
Message Edited by TarMangani on 04-12-2005 05:36 PM
I think I'll pass out from shock if/when a dev actually responds to some posts in the DOC/CM/BE forums...
Message Edited by TarMangani on 04-12-2005 05:36 PM
Two options are laid out:
a) include medical items in the master box
b) dont include medical items in the master box
People supporting a) say this is necessary because Master needs to be better in every single market, including the medical market. They also would accept keeping current MDs from keeping what they have been doing for the same skill point cost.
People supporting b) say Master BE does not have to be better in every single market, but he should be better in all markets combined, i. e. a Master gets to cater to more markets than a simple 0004. This option allows current MDs and CMs to continue what they have been doing for the same amount of SP they have to pay now.
What should we do now?
Eskie wrote:
So we pretty much are for moving a few schems up to master, but leaving the full experimentation at 0004 as I read this thread now.
Two options are laid out:
a) include medical items in the master box
b) dont include medical items in the master box
People supporting a) say this is necessary because Master needs to be better in every single market, including the medical market. They also would accept keeping current MDs from keeping what they have been doing for the same skill point cost.
People supporting b) say Master BE does not have to be better in every single market, but he should be better in all markets combined, i. e. a Master gets to cater to more markets than a simple 0004. This option allows current MDs and CMs to continue what they have been doing for the same amount of SP they have to pay now.
What should we do now?
The thing you have to look at Eskie, is it's not going to be Doctor crafting after the CU. If you want to do that kind of crafting you have to be a BE, not a Doc.
It's not about nerfing Doctors, it about being a BE and keeping MBE better than a dabbler.
The people currently in the MBE profession get to craft in an existing market at no additional skill point cost, so they should be on the same level in that market than the current crafters at most.
There are a lot of people already crafting in that market with full crafting capabilities, and the spend a lot of effort to be competitive in that market. Nobody can say that telling those people "sorry, but you have to pay more to keep what you currently have" is fair. It is the same as allowing them to take BE 0004 now, but already say "Oops - take it now, but you will have to take MBE to keep what you will be doing with no additional benefit". It doesnt matter if you nerf now or later.
If somebody already spend 1 or 2 years building up a business, why should he be made inferior to somebody entering his market? They should be at most on the same level in my opinion, for the old crafter in that market has already spent his time and money to be a Master in that market, while the new crafter hasnt done it yet. The old crafter is not a Master just because he has that title - he put effort into his business to become one. The new crafter in the market has not earned this mastery yet IMHO. So make them equal, but do not make the new crafter a better crafter than the old crafter.
And now re-read my last paragraph. Assume the old crafter is the MBE, and the new crafter is the BE 0004 turned doc. You will sign this paragraph instantly. Now exchange MBE and MD, and you wont sign it now? If you do not think the medical crafter should still be able to compete in his market, then the additive crafter shouldnt be able to compete in his market, either, for those are both sides of the same coin. The titles MBE and MD are just names - what matter is the opportunities the skills behind the names offer one now and post-CU.
This is why I think current MBEs should be able to outcraft current MDs in the pet and additive market, so I will support everything you do to keep docs forced to take BE 0004 out of those markets. On the other hand, this is why I also think a current MBE should be at most on par with a current 10pt MD. So protect the additive and pet markets from 0404 dabblers, but do not limit the 0004 dabbler in the medical market, because he has already earned his mastery in that market.
Why I thought that was obvious! Now we wait for the devs to ignore this thread and do what they want with the profession since that's what they intended to do anyway...
Eskie wrote:
So we pretty much are for moving a few schems up to master, but leaving the full experimentation at 0004 as I read this thread now.
Two options are laid out:
a) include medical items in the master box
b) dont include medical items in the master box
People supporting a) say this is necessary because Master needs to be better in every single market, including the medical market. They also would accept keeping current MDs from keeping what they have been doing for the same skill point cost.
People supporting b) say Master BE does not have to be better in every single market, but he should be better in all markets combined, i. e. a Master gets to cater to more markets than a simple 0004. This option allows current MDs and CMs to continue what they have been doing for the same amount of SP they have to pay now.
What should we do now?
How about ArthurDentOnBria starts a new thread (the title of this one is misleading now it seems
), writes a short introductory paragraph about schematic option a) and b), links to this thread for reference so we dont discuss the same things over and over again, and the BE community discusses what schematics are the valueable ones for MBE? I will keep out of that thread as long as nobody mentions a medical schematic If there was enough discussion going on or there is a concensus, I would say that schematic thread should be brought to the devs attention then.
Eskie wrote:
Not a good choice - who knows if the devs or admins even notice all the docs trolling the BE forums. Doesnt look like it
How about ArthurDentOnBria starts a new thread (the title of this one is misleading now it seems
If there was enough discussion going on or there is a concensus, I would say that schematic thread should be brought to the devs attention then.
The problem there is you're still looking at it as Doctor pre-CU. You have to forget that Doctors craft these items. It's going to be BIO-ENGINEERs that craft these things.
You say to forget profession....the problem is you're willing to have changes so long as YOU DON'T CHANGE.
Look at it this way, if I decided to become a chef to make my own brandy, then I'd have to grind out chef. If I wanted to make my own additives, I'd have to be a BE as well. A pre-CU doc could craft meds...a post -CU doc can't, BE's do. If you want to craft meds, then you are not a Doc, you're a BE.
And a Master level crafter should always be better than any dabbler.
So Arthur Dent should start the thread and you guys mention the med schematics and she can disagree! LOL. In all seriousness, without med schems in MBE, there really isn't ANY point in moving some schems at all. If the sole purpose would be to move some tissue schems up, it'd be a wasted effort.
Aleskander wrote:
Eskie wrote:
Not a good choice - who knows if the devs or admins even notice all the docs trolling the BE forums. Doesnt look like it
How about ArthurDentOnBria starts a new thread (the title of this one is misleading now it seems
If there was enough discussion going on or there is a concensus, I would say that schematic thread should be brought to the devs attention then.
The problem there is you're still looking at it as Doctor pre-CU. You have to forget that Doctors craft these items. It's going to be BIO-ENGINEERs that craft these things.
You say to forget profession....the problem is you're willing to have changes so long as YOU DON'T CHANGE.
Look at it this way, if I decided to become a chef to make my own brandy, then I'd have to grind out chef. If I wanted to make my own additives, I'd have to be a BE as well. A pre-CU doc could craft meds...a post -CU doc can't, BE's do. If you want to craft meds, then you are not a Doc, you're a BE.
And a Master level crafter should always be better than any dabbler.
I also say a Master BE crafting pets, additives and medical items is a better crafter than a BE 0004 just crafting medical items.
And frankly, since BEs _never_ asked for medical crafting and doctors never _wanted_ to get rid of the crafting branch, BEs not only wanting to be equal, but better in the medical market _can_ be viewed as being greedy and trying to take advantage of other players.
I believe there is a good reason why on TC-Ep3 medical exp caps at BE 0004 and all medical schems are granted with BE 0004, and I am pretty sure that reason is because the devs also think doctors should be able to do what they have been doing before at no additional skill point cost. I am pretty sure the devs thought twice before changing BE exp +100 at MBE to med exp +100 at BE 0004, forcing BEs to play the 12pt game and allowing current doctors to use the medic SP they can free up to keep all of their crafting.
I also believe the reason for moving medical crafting to BE is not that the devs want current docs to get out of the crafting, but to keep doctors from gaining additional combat benefits like health and armor through the acquisition of crafting boxes, which would have caused a huge uproar among all other crafting professions.
So a MBE is a better pet, additive and medical crafter than a BE 0004 medical crafter, simply because the BE 0004 can hardly craft additives and pets. The MBE _still_ _is_ _better_ than the BE 0004.
TarMangani wrote:
(...)
So Arthur Dent should start the thread and you guys mention the med schematics and she can disagree! LOL. In all seriousness, without med schems in MBE, there really isn't ANY point in moving some schems at all. If the sole purpose would be to move some tissue schems up, it'd be a wasted effort.
No. Valueable pet and additive schems would be made inaccessible to BE 0404 dabblers, the ones that choose to spend 14 skill points more than they need for a current MD. In no other crafting profession one gains full crafting capabilities in a market for just 14 more skill points. It would serve to protect current BEs from former docs invading their current markets with 12 point suits. This protection is what current BEs do not have if CU goes live as it is designed right now. BEs deserve to be protected in their current markets, though.
Asking for more than keeping what one has at no additional cost is taking away from somebody else.
Eskie wrote:
So we pretty much are for moving a few schems up to master, but leaving the full experimentation at 0004 as I read this thread now.
Two options are laid out:
a) include medical items in the master box
b) dont include medical items in the master box
People supporting a) say this is necessary because Master needs to be better in every single market, including the medical market. They also would accept keeping current MDs from keeping what they have been doing for the same skill point cost.
People supporting b) say Master BE does not have to be better in every single market, but he should be better in all markets combined, i. e. a Master gets to cater to more markets than a simple 0004. This option allows current MDs and CMs to continue what they have been doing for the same amount of SP they have to pay now.
What should we do now?
I disagree with the optionsentirely. I support keeping all med schematics available at 0004 and moving +10 med exp and +10 med assembly at master level.
Doctors with 0004 BE would then be able to craft all their items, but with +9 exp pts (+11 if they have tapes). They will likely achieve the same end-product quality, but with less charges (at least in current crafting, you can max on strength in 10-11 exp pts).
I believe that if a person wants to be a master crafter, they should have a master profession!
Didnt expect to see you here again after you have been away for several days now
This view of yours doesnt have anything to do with the fact that you are currently a pure crafting doc and would like to get rid of some competition from the docs who currently use all doctor skills by healing and crafting?
As soon as CU hits, you will be dropping MD and MCM, grab MBE and craft for the additive markets, also, all for a net gain in skill points, right?