Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: Please put some experimental points at MBE level
Eskie wrote:
Aleskander wrote:The point is we don't want anyone to get screwed on the deal. period. Not Docs or BE's. Unfortunatly, we don't have a choich, SOE has decided that medical crafting is now part of the BE profession, not the Doctor profession.I understand the docs being ticked about loosing the crafting tree. Notice, I'm a doc too. I don't do a lot of doc crafting except for pet med items. I don't have a 12 point suit...BE's can't afford stuff like that. And, until now, haven't needed them.BE should be treated the exact same as everyother profession...MASTER MEANS MASTER. I understand you don't like the idea of having to be a MBE to gain the full 12 experimentation points since Doctors have always done it before. BUT why should a MBE be treated as LESS THAN any other master level crafter?I would much prefer to keep medical crafting in the dotor line, not in the BE. But since SOE has decided to move it to us, then make MBE a requirement for the full 10 points granted in the crafting tree. If you were a MAS, would you want a Tailor to be able to take 2 trees and be able to craft all of your best selling armor with the full number of experimentation points you have? I don't think so.Can SOE make it so only BE xp, not medical xp, counts towards the additive line? Yes. Will they? Doubtful. It would be wonderful if they did. That would prevent a "crafting doc" from moving into our profession. But it still wouldn't be BALANCEDfor a BE 0004 to be able to craft as well as a MBE. Remember this is all about balance. You want to be the best crafter, be a Master.
Force me to take MBE to be able to use my experimentation suits and resources the way I can use them now, and I will cater to all the markets I can, because I am not paying 43 skill points more than I do now just to be able to continue my current business. Give me about 30 days to get the resources I need, and I will outcraft every current MBE in the additive and medical markets, unless he spends the money for a 12pt suit also. Doesnt look too good for you, if you ask me. If you really want me to become a full-blown MBE, that is the price you pay.
Chill. If you want to take your 12 point suit and grab MBE, you're more than welcome to outcraft a MBE with no 12 point suit. We just want to prevent dabblers from outcrafting masters. It's really just that easy.
Marrow1 wrote:Personally if it were up to me I would have done one of three things:1. Put +10 in the master BE2. A. Put +5 in the master BE and put +5 in the Master medicB. change the skill points for master medic to 1C. changed the prerecs of BE to medic crafting only (no scout)3. Put a few of the med schems in the Master BE and something in the M. Medic box.Option one is the simple one. It is rather easy to get a +10 crafting outfit. So getting to be a 10pt BE crafter would not take much work if you only wanted to go for 0004 BE. I am not sure how important being greater than 10pts will be until I can craft a few of the higher end items. If it is like most crafted items the 10pts will finish up the power line. Anything over 10pts adds a few charges which is nice but not a make it or break it. Resources are more important 9 out of 10 times. There isnt a med use to push down, for example, so for stims the only thing one could do is add charges. As for Enhancers there may be a duration line but since from the schems there does not seem to be a dependence of stats for duration so my guess is that there is not a duration line to exp on. If that is the case then again, the extra point will just add charges. Not a biggy. However, it still rewards those who master the prof by enabling them to get 12pts while a dabbler is only 11pts.Option 2 takes a bit more work to understand. By changing the skill points around a BE would need to spend 14 more points to master medic and BE than they currently spend master BE alone. By putting the +5 in MBE and MMedic you reward mastering medic which as it stand is rather useless. Also, if someone does not want to master those prof then they are only shy +1 which as I stated earlier is not hard to aquire. (yes I know everyone will hate this idea, just a thought)Option 3 is much like we have today in Live for meds. In M. Medic you get a schem (since you ahve to master it anyway to get to doc/cm it is moot point). All of the skill points for doc/cm are in the crafting lines, none in the master box. The only reason to get master doc really from a crafting standpoint is to get the key schems. To this date I know of no 0004 docs. From what I see the Stim D and C will be the bread and butter of BE med crafting. Where ever those schems go that is where the money will be. Puting one of them in the Master box would be very large driving force to master the prof.If they remove the Scout from BE then BE will be the cheapest crafting prof in the game by far. As much as I love crafting meds, I dont really want to see BE become a dabble prof any more than it already is.
Aleskander wrote:
(...)Can anyone give me a valid reason a dabbler can craft as well as a master? - Please don't use medical crafting moving to BE. Can anyone show me a Doc 0004 (or anyother profession) that can craft as well as a Master in that profession?
Doc 0004 has +100 medical experimentation and is as good as any master-level crafter. The only doctor schems missing will be:
[S] Action Wound Medpack - E
[S] Constitution Wound Medpack - E
[S] Cure Disease Medpack - C
[S] Enhance Constitution Medpack - D
[S] Enhance Quickness Medpack - D
[S] Enhance Stamina Medpack - D
[S] Enhance Strength Medpack - D
[S] Health Wound Medpack - E
[S] Quickness Wound Medpack - E
[S] Stamina Wound Medpack - E
[S] Strength Wound Medpack - E
So you have full crafting capabilities for the stim market as doc 0004 and craft on par with a master doc in that market. Also, you have full crafting capabilities for the whole medic market, since all of the items granted in the MD box have a med use higher than 50 (I think). And you also have the schematics for Health and Action Buff - D already, so you can craft the buffs for the primary stats.
That is what I suggest for BE also, give BE 0004 full crafting capabilities in the stim and enhancer market, but move the most valueable schematics for additive and pet markets to master to protect current MBEs from 0404 dabblers.
Edit:
- Combat Medic is also structured in this way: +100 experimentation at 0040, and schems for best diseases and area poisons in master. Single-target poisons, Ranged Stims and Area Stims are craftable at MCM level at CM 0040.
- Artisan 4400 has all artisan experimentation, Master Artisan only grants schematics.
- Smuggler 0004 has all experimentation, Master Smuggler only grants schematics.
Message Edited by Eskie on 04-12-2005 02:32 AM
Aleskander wrote:
(...)3. Move the most "useful" schematics to MBE
Good - Keeps dabblers out of the BE tissue market
Bad - Puts everything into the Master block.....and are yo going to let the Dev's decide what goes there? They put INN's there. What about pets? If they did that, they'd have to put the CL10 skins (the biggest selling pets) and all mounts in Master along with pet stims, vitality packs and all the higher end tailor tissues. Just not very practical.
(...)
If you can settle with this option, I will totally support you.
I wouldnt let the devs decide what goes into master, but rather go log into TC-Ep3 and find some chef and tailor testers and maybe some combat class testers to see what foods and clothes will be in demand.
Compose a list of what is most valueable having at master BE, maybe 10% to 20% of the total amount of BE schems, and hand it over to your correspondent to discuss it with the devs.
I dont know a lot about BE crafting (thats why I only want the medical crafting stuff
), but I would say lvl10 mounts and brandy additives are a prime candidate for the master box. But thats entirely up to you, choose the ones you dont want a BE 0404 dabbler to be able to craft with 10 (or 12) experimentation points.
Eskie wrote:
Aleskander wrote:
(...)
3. Move the most "useful" schematics to MBE
Good - Keeps dabblers out of the BE tissue market
Bad - Puts everything into the Master block.....and are yo going to let the Dev's decide what goes there? They put INN's there. What about pets? If they did that, they'd have to put the CL10 skins (the biggest selling pets) and all mounts in Master along with pet stims, vitality packs and all the higher end tailor tissues. Just not very practical.
(...)
If you can settle with this option, I will totally support you.
I wouldnt let the devs decide what goes into master, but rather go log into TC-Ep3 and find some chef and tailor testers and maybe some combat class testers to see what foods and clothes will be in demand.
Compose a list of what is most valueable having at master BE, maybe 10% to 20% of the total amount of BE schems, and hand it over to your correspondent to discuss it with the devs.
I dont know a lot about BE crafting (thats why I only want the medical crafting stuff
Ok, you're right, a Doc 0004 is as good as a MDoc in experimentation points. MY BAD
I never said I was perfect.
Ok, I'll go with you on moving the schematics...but following that, let's move some of the medical items as well....for example the NIE (health buff) to MBE. Especially that one since that's probably one of the highest mods under the CU. And pick one from the CM meds to move to master as well....probably the health poison. And move some of the better BE items to Master.
Eskie wrote:
Almost forgot: I am glad we are finally talking in a real constructive way instead of yelling at each other instead of yelling at the devs
There is no real need to worry about pet dabblers...To get near higher level creatures they will need Masck Scent, to get samples they will need 0040, to get any decent skins they will need 4000...total is scout mask scent and 4040 BE...combine that so they can make their Doc stuff and you get 4044 BE (also MBE has a sampling Bonus)...and im not too bothered about pet dabblers...you need 75% of BE to make pets and med crafting, and you also need the scout mask scent to get those tricky DNA samples.
The problem is with stuff in the tissues 0400 line...it's just 14 skillpoints extra for a Doc to take over our pre-existing market.
Oh and aleskander why take med stuff out of the med line? Med dabblers aren't a big problem as thats the Docs area. By saying you want the tissues AND the high powered med crafting it makes you sound greedy...We didn't ask for Med Crafting, Docs didn't ask for BE med crafting, what we really need to be worrying about is protecting our current markets not taking away doc markets.
LloydPickering wrote:
Eskie wrote:
Almost forgot: I am glad we are finally talking in a real constructive way instead of yelling at each other instead of yelling at the devs
There is no real need to worry about pet dabblers...To get near higher level creatures they will need Masck Scent, to get samples they will need 0040, to get any decent skins they will need 4000...total is scout mask scent and 4040 BE...combine that so they can make their Doc stuff and you get 4044 BE (also MBE has a sampling Bonus)...and im not too bothered about pet dabblers...you need 75% of BE to make pets and med crafting, and you also need the scout mask scent to get those tricky DNA samples.
The problem is with stuff in the tissues 0400 line...it's just 14 skillpoints extra for a Doc to take over our pre-existing market.
Oh and aleskander why take med stuff out of the med line? Med dabblers aren't a big problem as thats the Docs area. By saying you want the tissues AND the high powered med crafting it makes you sound greedy...We didn't ask for Med Crafting, Docs didn't ask for BE med crafting, what we really need to be worrying about is protecting our current markets not taking away doc markets.
You're right about the pets...except the lower skins are the ones used for the non-CH pets - which are the one that sell the most. Yeah, it wouldn't be as easy for them to make them as a MBE, but they still could if they want to spend the sp for mask scent......but then the lower level pets don't use that many experimentation points....that one's a kinda circular argument.
As for moving the "best" med stuff to master...well, it just goes back to making the master level crafter better than the dabbler. Something should be done to make a MBE better than a dabbler. There should always be something about a master that is better than any dabbler, I don't care what the profession. At first I was saying experimentation points, because, well, that's what this thread is titled..lol. And I thought the doc line had some there - which was pointed out to me it doesn't.
Have you looked at what these new meds are going to need? Good luck finding some of those items. Stims are low level meds with low level componets. These aren't going to be any problem, not in experimenting nor in crafting. The kicker is going to be the advanced level items. I've looked at finding some of them....good luck.
As far as protecting the market...well, we talked about it in guild chat last night. There will still be a demand for the buffing Doc's. Since players feel they have to have that little extra point or 2 to be uber. Current BE's do not have the resources on-hand to craft most of the new meds and neither do Doc's. There is no way the current number of BE's can take care of the demand for the new meds once this goes live so there will be a lot of people flocking to BE to cash in on the new cash cow.
The one profession we haven't heard from is the CM's. Have you noticed most of the new resources are old CM items? Like the elton reactive gas, class 2 liquid just to name a couple. CM is that class that can take the BE 0004 and start making meds quickly.
So I take it we settle down now for leaving +100 med exp at BE 0004, but moving the most important (post-CU wise) additive and pet schems to the master box?
LloydPickering wrote:
Oh and aleskander why take med stuff out of the med line? Med dabblers aren't a big problem as thats the Docs area. By saying you want the tissues AND the high powered med crafting it makes you sound greedy...We didn't ask for Med Crafting, Docs didn't ask for BE med crafting, what we really need to be worrying about is protecting our current markets not taking away doc markets.
I think I can answer part of this.
Everything being said here means BE is a three column profession: 444.
Then there is thenew, totally separate class, "Medical BE" which is only one column, XXX4.
This concept is only being discussed to minimize the impact upon doc crafters who are being relegated to BE, not because it makes sense to the profession as a whole.
It only makes sense that an MBE should have some med advantage because it is, in the end, the BE profession now.
And regarding competing markets, INHO I think we'll all find that those lines are going to blur very, very quickly. BE's are going to intrude on med markets ASAP, because they CAN. Listen up BE's, if you don't start crafting meds, you're all fools. It's a new market for you. You can bet that docs will be moving into your turf and taking advantage of your current markets as soon as they see a profit there, if any, (0404).
I don't want my market impacted anymore than Eskie does, however after the CU I'mnota crafting doc anymore, I'm a crafting BE. The fact that I can outcraft a master of the BE profession isinsane, however I'm not complaining as it gives me an unfairadvantage overthose masters. That's the devs decision.
I understand why the crafting docs will fight keeping the lines separate, and I will benefit from it if they do stay separate.However, and I challenge ANYONE to deny this statement, the ONLY reason to keep things separate is TURF. There is no technical, philosophical, or "profession" based reason to do so. It's ALL about player's wants and needs...period.
I'm a crafting doc moving over to BE, and even though I'd be challenging my current template by saying so, SOMETHING medical should be in the MBE block...
What's wrong with shaping a game like the players want it shaped? If you ask around a little you will find a lot of people who say SWG could be a better game if SOE had listened more to what players wanted.
TarMangani wrote:
(...)I'm not saying we shouldn't fight for what we want where the devs are concerned, I just think it's important to clearly define the reasons behind the arguments.The MBE's reasons hold water because it's their profession and when they say a Master should outcraft a dabbler, they're right. We docs have no argument against that statement except that we want to be able to craft at our current level, nothing more.So in the end, the MBE argument makes sense philosophically to the profession as well as due to player desires. The crafting doc argument only holds water based player desires. This means docs are essentially saying to the devs "I know it makes sense to move some Med stuff to MBE, however I'm asking you not to because I don't want to give up anymore SP than I have to..."Message Edited by TarMangani on 04-12-2005 02:14 PM
You are right, all of my argumentation for not moving experimentation points to the MBE box is based on the pure skill point cost for me.
I also fully support the idea that a Master Crafter should be a better crafter than the Non-Master.
I also acknowledge that moving some experimentation into the Master box is a way of achieving this goal. But also, this is not the right way of achieving this IMHO.
My main point is: Just because the devs decided to move stuff around, current players should be able to access the same content than they do now, with no penalties involved if those penalties are not mandatory due to game balance reasons.
And here the skill point cost comes into play:
- A current MBE is able to cater to several markets (non-CH pets, CH pets, chefs and tailors) at a cost of 121 SP.
- A current MD is able to heal / buff / craft at a cost of 140 SP.
The devs decided medical crafting should be moved to BE. Why this decision was made is unknown, but it is a fact. This forces current MDs to also spend skill points in the BE profession if they want to continue what they do now.
- To heal / buff and medical crafting at the _current_ MD level one will need MD for the healing and buffing part post-CU. Since Doctor is considered a combat profession, it will take 2 start profession lines, that is a total cost of 106 SP (all doc and medic 4x4x). So to gain the crafting capabilities without any penalty compared to the current situation on live, only 34 SP can be spent (this would be medic xxx4 and BE xxx4).
- For an MBE to continue his current business, the total skill point cost drops by 29 (the scout line). Although I acknowledge that BEs need the scout line for pet crafting anyway, so lets assume BE skill point cost for MBE stays the same. So at no additional cost a MBE gains medical crafting capabilities.
By moving some experimentation to the MBE box, the docs would lose their full crafting capabilities, while the BEs would gain an instant advantage over current MDs. The MD would be put at a disadvantage, but this disadvantage is _not_ needed for game balancing purposes. So if at all possible, this road should not be taken. Instead, the current MBE should be made more outstanding compared to the MD/BE 0004 hybrid in another way.
Since moving experimentation is not a desireable option, because it would give BEs more for equal cost while nerfing current MDs, the former MD needs to be limited in BE crafting in some other way.
This could be done by giving an experimentation line to the BE 0004, while giving the MBE another experimentation line. This was my original suggestion which also got supported by several BEs in a voting thread in the BE forums. But I have to admit, this approach is flawed because it would make BE the only profession with +100 X experimentation at master and +100 Y experimentation at 0004.
Another option would be to make valueable schematics only accessible to masters. This is how several other professions currently make their Master more valueable than a dabbler: Artisan, Smuggler, Doctor and Combat Medic, to name a few.
This way of makeing MBE valueable to have does not involve nerfing other players but achieves the same goal as moving experimentation skills to master. Therefore, this is the better option.
This will in effect introduce three classes of BEs: the 0004 medical crafters at 49 skill points, the MBE additive / medical crafter at 92 required skill points, and the MBE pet / medical / additive crafter with 121 skill points (hidden scout requirement for creature sampling).
Is this bad in my opinion? No. There are docs 0004 crafting stimpacks (yes, I know one!). There are CMs 0040 just for the single-target poisons and heals.
Eskie wrote:
TarMangani wrote:
(...)
I'm not saying we shouldn't fight for what we want where the devs are concerned, I just think it's important to clearly define the reasons behind the arguments.
The MBE's reasons hold water because it's their profession and when they say a Master should outcraft a dabbler, they're right. We docs have no argument against that statement except that we want to be able to craft at our current level, nothing more.
So in the end, the MBE argument makes sense philosophically to the profession as well as due to player desires. The crafting doc argument only holds water based player desires. This means docs are essentially saying to the devs "I know it makes sense to move some Med stuff to MBE, however I'm asking you not to because I don't want to give up anymore SP than I have to..."
This is all I've been saying...now how do we get there?
Message Edited by TarMangani on 04-12-2005 02:14 PM
You are right, all of my argumentation for not moving experimentation points to the MBE box is based on the pure skill point cost for me.
I also fully support the idea that a Master Crafter should be a better crafter than the Non-Master.
Ok, we have all agreed that a MBE SHOULD be better than a BE 0004 or 0404 dabbler
I also acknowledge that moving some experimentation into the Master box is a way of achieving this goal. But also, this is not the right way of achieving this IMHO.
My main point is: Just because the devs decided to move stuff around, current players should be able to access the same content than they do now, with no penalties involved if those penalties are not mandatory due to game balance reasons.
This is the problem. You want to stay the same, but the game is changing. The whole thing is about WHAT changes and HOW to make the changes. The Dev's have decided to make the change to Doc/CM and BE. We're stuck with that. The problem is that Eskie says Post CU-Doctor should be able to do the same things a Pre-CU doctordidwith the Post-CU BE 0004. Almost everyone else...the vocal ones anyway....are saying the MBE should be better than the BE 0004 dabblers. Now that we have all, including Eskie have agreed on that, we have to figure out a WAY to do it....and then try to get the Dev's to go with what we want.
And here the skill point cost comes into play:
- A current MBE is able to cater to several markets (non-CH pets, CH pets, chefs and tailors) at a cost of 121 SP.
- A current MD is able to heal / buff / craft at a cost of 140 SP.
The devs decided medical crafting should be moved to BE. Why this decision was made is unknown, but it is a fact. This forces current MDs to also spend skill points in the BE profession if they want to continue what they do now.
- To heal / buff and medical crafting at the _current_ MD level one will need MD for the healing and buffing part post-CU. Since Doctor is considered a combat profession, it will take 2 start profession lines, that is a total cost of 106 SP (all doc and medic 4x4x). So to gain the crafting capabilities without any penalty compared to the current situation on live, only 34 SP can be spent (this would be medic xxx4 and BE xxx4).
- For an MBE to continue his current business, the total skill point cost drops by 29 (the scout line). Although I acknowledge that BEs need the scout line for pet crafting anyway, so lets assume BE skill point cost for MBE stays the same. So at no additional cost a MBE gains medical crafting capabilities.
By moving some experimentation to the MBE box, the docs would lose their full crafting capabilities, while the BEs would gain an instant advantage over current MDs. The MD would be put at a disadvantage, but this disadvantage is _not_ needed for game balancing purposes. So if at all possible, this road should not be taken. Instead, the current MBE should be made more outstanding compared to the MD/BE 0004 hybrid in another way.
Since moving experimentation is not a desireable option, because it would give BEs more for equal cost while nerfing current MDs, the former MD needs to be limited in BE crafting in some other way.
This could be done by giving an experimentation line to the BE 0004, while giving the MBE another experimentation line. This was my original suggestion which also got supported by several BEs in a voting thread in the BE forums. But I have to admit, this approach is flawed because it would make BE the only profession with +100 X experimentation at master and +100 Y experimentation at 0004.
Another option would be to make valueable schematics only accessible to masters. This is how several other professions currently make their Master more valueable than a dabbler: Artisan, Smuggler, Doctor and Combat Medic, to name a few.
This way of makeing MBE valueable to have does not involve nerfing other players but achieves the same goal as moving experimentation skills to master. Therefore, this is the better option.
This will in effect introduce three classes of BEs: the 0004 medical crafters at 49 skill points, the MBE additive / medical crafter at 92 required skill points, and the MBE pet / medical / additive crafter with 121 skill points (hidden scout requirement for creature sampling).
Is this bad in my opinion? No. There are docs 0004 crafting stimpacks (yes, I know one!). There are CMs 0040 just for the single-target poisons and heals.
So far the best option anyone has come upwith has been to move several of the higher end schematics to MBE. I can go with this, but now we are faced with WHAT schematics to move. MBE already has pets, tailor and chef tissues/additives at MBE. The ONLY LINE NOT IN MBE IS MEDICAL ITEMS.
Eskie, I'm not out to nerf anyone that want to just craft medical items...ie the current med crafting doc's. All I'm after is to make MBE better than a BE 0004 dabbler. I don't care if a 0404 dabbler gets to craft stuff.....that's part of the game. I just want a MBE to be a MASTER BIO-ENGINEER, not just a title to get a couple extra schematics that aren't really used that often. ie INN's, Kimo's and some tailor tissues.
Some suggestions include moving more of the BE schematics to MBE to keep the 0404 dabblers out of the additive market. This is only good to those like Eskie that are Pre-CU crafting doc's.
Something has to be moved to MBE to make MBE better than a dabbler. IMHO, at least 2 of the better med items should be move to MBE. One from the Doc useage and one from the CM useage. This will make MBE the MASTER BIO-ENGINEER.