Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: New Tailor Tissues
NancyJ
Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:44 pm
#80
Orew wrote:did anyone mention lightsaber resist?
Hmmm I think if they did the responce would be: "Keep dreaming!"
RandDarkstar
Thu Aug 19, 2004 10:03 am
#81
Firstly my apologies to NancyJ, N'Jessiand some of the BE that have posted or read this thread to this point. My apologies to those sensitive readers that may find the following a tad acidic. I shall keep the ad hominems to a minimum, but I can't promise much.
/AcidicTongue on
The myopia of some of you people is unbelievable! How dare you focus so wholely and completely upon what your own petty little world means when someone asks for a bit of help. The tailoring community has (quite rightly) come to you and asked for aid in devising a joint pan on new tissues and it becomes a chance to complain that YOU ARE NOT MAKING ENOUGH MONEY!!!!!
WHO GIVES A DIME about what you want, and what you need, and how you can get more? You have insulted the tailors that came asking for help, and snubbed us, and called us all manner of things. You have demeaned our profession and lowered us to .... how did you put it? Oh yes, those image designers. I'm surprised that our friends in that forum didn't jump in on some of this.
Who benefits from you having more schematics for new tissues? YOU DO!!! Tailors are going to buy them. Why? One foolish fish is trying to say that armour is so godlike that it shall never be replaced with useless trivial clothing. (Oh it makes me want to spit just reading this drivel)
ARMOUR WILL HAVE A 50% REDUCTION. Oh yes!!!! You think that a 90% set of armour is mandatory? Wait until the best you can find is 40-45% and see what you think. How about the fact that in full composite you'll have a -90TN bonus and glide across the ground like a fat turtle. Maybe you'll also notice a -25 accuracy and a big speed penalty as well.
If you think that armour is going to remain largely "as is" in the combat revamp, then you are insane. Combat is going to be quicker and more decisive than ever before. Armour will protect you at a penalty to everything else. Wearing no armour will eliminate that penalty, but if the blow/shot lands, you are going to feel it hard.
Are armoursmiths going to cry about this? Heck no!! It will not be a nerf to armour, it is a reduction in all aspects of combat so that now, some armour becomes more advantageous in certain professions. Perhaps padded allows fencers to move with more freedom, swordsmen will gravitate to composite, pikemen to tantel, teras will ignore armour and marksmen will prefer a light mabari.
Hey look!! Suddenly clothing with some really nice bio tissues are looking better. NO! You don't want that. Maybe tailors should be taken out of the loop. make tapes instead. we can just drop all our skills and go to 0200 so we can craft your precious synth and fiber panels. OH WAIT! We don't haveto! As shown by our friendly fish, armoursmiths are perfectly capable of taking that line and eliminating our profession. We should be happy to make gloves for 300 credits once an hour for the odd dancer that is not wearing full composite.
If armour can have all the goodies, then the tailoring profession would surely be completely ruined. You say that you want tailoring to be in the game... but over there... in the cantina and where the non-combat people are. Guess what. We are looking at involving tailoring in the game, not trying to eliminate it. Adding a full layer of clothing underneath? Well really, all you are doing is letting us make the inner lining of a set of armour!
Tailors, weaponsmiths and armoursmiths are crafters that make a final product. We don't LIKE making components. YOU DO. In fact, THAT IS ALL YOU DO!!! You only make components!! Chefs, Tailors, Creature Handlers.... The only thing you do, is make things that other people use!! We don't do ccomponents because that is not the thrust of why we became tailors. If you want to be a component salesman, then take up armoursmithing and the minimal 0200 of tailoring so you don't have to get the components yourself. MOST armoursmiths do this anyway, or have an alt that just gives them free (or very cheap)schematics!!! Tailors don't make money doing the "cloth factory" thing.
Tailors deal with the client themselves. They have to hand fabricate each and every piece of our clothes. We can't just make a crate of tissues. It doesn't work that way, because everyone wants a slight modification, colour change, tweaking, etc. How would you like a customer to come up and ask for a level 45 pet, and when you make it he says "Um... well, maybe a bit more health, and less action. Do it again." Tailors can do this, because our schematics are fairly quick and fast. NO experimentation. Speak NOT to us about that abomination. We don't want it and don't need it!!!
Oh, and as a point of order. Jedi DO NOT WEAR THOSE ROBES!!! Have you looked around lately? Maybe you haven't noticed. I shall elucidate. The jedi robes offer +100 force and +10 force regeneration. In battle, the regeneration is worthless. When you have 7000 Force, an extra +100 is worthless. Having +16 melee defense/+25 Stun defense,because you are wearing a full suit of shirt, pants, jacket, bandolier clothing (The jedi robe cannot be equipped with a backpack, so most jedi don't wear them) is far far far more beneficial. I can't keep my jedi customers' demand fulfilled, as I run out of tissues too fast.
Jedi's true combat power is in the Lightsaber skill tree. That is where all the blocking and toughness really is. A jedi that has reached Lightsaber Master is really an unstoppable opponent.
As to the concept of some tissues I've seen listed (ie storing an additional 1-5 slots in a pack, Burst Run/TN - which would kill high level ranger or scout skills completely, Repair +1 to +4, or general assembly +1 to +10) I think you have to have your head examined. Would you ever possibly bother gathering the components and making a crate of such worthless tissues? Or would you concentrate on your chef-loving nutrients that are the only thing you can see -> $$$$ Grow up.
I can only come to the conclusion from this single thread that either the strong voice of one person is the standard for the entire community and the rest just prefer to remain silent behind his lead, or most simply don't care enough to even offer a counter. There are a few, I admit, afew voices in here that are advocating against the view that tailors are the true evil upon your profession.
/AcidTongue off
Seiryuu
Thu Aug 19, 2004 10:24 am
#82
The myopia of some of you people is unbelievable! How dare you focus so wholely and completely upon what your own petty little world means when someone asks for a bit of help.
Odd, the discussion has so far focused on not only how this does (or doesn't) affect us as well as other professions.
Regardless, you're right that Bio-Engineers have the audacity to focus on something that affects the Bio-Engineer profession.
WHO GIVES A DIME about what you want, and what you need, and how you can get more?
Then don't expect any support from us. We might not have agreed on all points but at least we were discussing various angles.
Go sell your proposal without us if you feel that way.
Tailors, weaponsmiths and armoursmiths are crafters that make a final product. We don't LIKE making components. YOU DO. In fact, THAT IS ALL YOU DO!!!
For your information, pets are as much a final product as clothes, weapons or armor. The people that like crafting probably got into this profession for pets.
Those that wanted money or found they couldn't survive crafting pets alone moved into tissues. That doesn't mean they like spending all their time (which you practically have to once you go that route) crafting tissues. (Some might, as there is some pride in making a +119 INN or a +4/+19 TR.)
It is rather presumptuous for you to assume what we do or do not like.
Tailors deal with the client themselves. They have to hand fabricate each and every piece of our clothes. We can't just make a crate of tissues. It doesn't work that way, because everyone wants a slight modification, colour change, tweaking, etc. How would you like a customer to come up and ask for a level 45 pet, and when you make it he says "Um... well, maybe a bit more health, and less action. Do it again." Tailors can do this, because our schematics are fairly quick and fast. NO experimentation. Speak NOT to us about that abomination. We don't want it and don't need it!!!
I hate to break it to you, but our creature customers are just as demanding, and as you so thoughtfully point out, a heck of a lot harder to adjust!
What are those components that go into clothes and armor called again? Oh yeah, fiber panels and synth cloth. I hate to break it to you, but you have components just like we do.
Of course you are correct that yours are easier to produce since you don't have to worry about experimentation. Or acquiring the absolute best materials to make it. Or the potential game-affecting side affects of adding new modifiers and abilities.
No, you are just concerned with a way to add another product to your line. I think I saw a recent quote that covers your attitude quite well, "The myopia of some of you people is unbelievable! How dare you focus so wholely and completely upon what your own petty little world." Look familiar?
Pot meet Kettle.
Odd, the discussion has so far focused on not only how this does (or doesn't) affect us as well as other professions.
Regardless, you're right that Bio-Engineers have the audacity to focus on something that affects the Bio-Engineer profession.
WHO GIVES A DIME about what you want, and what you need, and how you can get more?
Then don't expect any support from us. We might not have agreed on all points but at least we were discussing various angles.
Go sell your proposal without us if you feel that way.
Tailors, weaponsmiths and armoursmiths are crafters that make a final product. We don't LIKE making components. YOU DO. In fact, THAT IS ALL YOU DO!!!
For your information, pets are as much a final product as clothes, weapons or armor. The people that like crafting probably got into this profession for pets.
Those that wanted money or found they couldn't survive crafting pets alone moved into tissues. That doesn't mean they like spending all their time (which you practically have to once you go that route) crafting tissues. (Some might, as there is some pride in making a +119 INN or a +4/+19 TR.)
It is rather presumptuous for you to assume what we do or do not like.
Tailors deal with the client themselves. They have to hand fabricate each and every piece of our clothes. We can't just make a crate of tissues. It doesn't work that way, because everyone wants a slight modification, colour change, tweaking, etc. How would you like a customer to come up and ask for a level 45 pet, and when you make it he says "Um... well, maybe a bit more health, and less action. Do it again." Tailors can do this, because our schematics are fairly quick and fast. NO experimentation. Speak NOT to us about that abomination. We don't want it and don't need it!!!
I hate to break it to you, but our creature customers are just as demanding, and as you so thoughtfully point out, a heck of a lot harder to adjust!
What are those components that go into clothes and armor called again? Oh yeah, fiber panels and synth cloth. I hate to break it to you, but you have components just like we do.
Of course you are correct that yours are easier to produce since you don't have to worry about experimentation. Or acquiring the absolute best materials to make it. Or the potential game-affecting side affects of adding new modifiers and abilities.
No, you are just concerned with a way to add another product to your line. I think I saw a recent quote that covers your attitude quite well, "The myopia of some of you people is unbelievable! How dare you focus so wholely and completely upon what your own petty little world." Look familiar?
Pot meet Kettle.
Gyopi
Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:29 am
#83
As a tailor and a BE I can see both sides of this, but I think that the most important guildline is that we shouldn't ask for improvements to our own professions at the expense of others. This is also true of a few tailors who wanted the merchant profession to be removed and split up amoung crafters too. BE enhanced clothing is pretty much the only clothing that sells right now (and unfortunately only shirts since they fit under armor). After the combat rebalance, this will probably be even more true since clothing with some sort of bonus will be competitive with armor. A simple difference in encumberance will not be enough to make clothing a better choice over light armor like chitin, though. Asking for BE enhancements in armor jeapardizes the entire tailor profession because it takes away our main advantage over armor. Having more BE enhancements for clothing and only for clothing increases sales for both BEs and tailors. Allowing them also for armor would would probably help BEs even more, but at the expense of making tailor an unviable profession and making tailors as rare as chefs were before their revamp.
Seiryuu
Thu Aug 19, 2004 2:34 pm
#84
Actually I think he has a very good point. Here is a thread started by our correspsondent with the sole purpose of discussing how we can work with the tailors to add aditional tissues to the tailor line. A proposal that would allow a 'win' on both sides.
As Suener points out in the post above yours, many of us felt this wasn't a 'win' for the BEs. It was a win for the Tailors and the Tailors alone if other changes are not implemented in conjunction with adding more tissues.
Seriously no offense here, but Nancy and a lot of others are biased on this issue because they are Tailors. While it might have directly benefited them, others of us that only deal on the tissue production end felt there was no point to the BEs inclusion in the discussion. Baring the heated debate, I think some good points were raised about what else needs to be considered when asking for more tissues. That can way it truly can be a 'win' for everyone.
Regardless, his tone wasn't pleasant, and certainly had nothing constructive in it. All he did was hurt the image of Tailors. Is he really worth defending?
As Suener points out in the post above yours, many of us felt this wasn't a 'win' for the BEs. It was a win for the Tailors and the Tailors alone if other changes are not implemented in conjunction with adding more tissues.
Seriously no offense here, but Nancy and a lot of others are biased on this issue because they are Tailors. While it might have directly benefited them, others of us that only deal on the tissue production end felt there was no point to the BEs inclusion in the discussion. Baring the heated debate, I think some good points were raised about what else needs to be considered when asking for more tissues. That can way it truly can be a 'win' for everyone.
Regardless, his tone wasn't pleasant, and certainly had nothing constructive in it. All he did was hurt the image of Tailors. Is he really worth defending?
NancyJ
Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:00 pm
#85
For the record I'm not a tailor I was a tailor though and I understand the tailor point of view, what you may not know is that I've also been an armoursmith, so am I really as biased as you think?
Personally I think we shouldnt burn our bridges, we have a good realationship with tailors and they love our tissues. By saying that we should forget about tailors because no-one wears clothes anyway is very disrepectful of our tailor friends.
One of the major complaints from chefs is that they dont like being forced to get BE components for their food just to be able to sell their products.
Should we really be trying to force our tissues on armoursmiths and create hate their too, as well ruining our relationship with tailors?
IMO we should work on improving what we've got rather than forcing more professions to have to buy our stuff and resenting us for it.
If jaato comes in here and wants to start up a diaglogue about armour tissues then sure, we can discuss it, as long as the tailor position on the issue is respected, however right now armoursmiths arent asking for this, we shouldnt force it one them
I was a tailor though and I understand the tailor point of view, what you may not know is that I've also been an armoursmith, so am I really as biased as you think?Personally I think we shouldnt burn our bridges, we have a good realationship with tailors and they love our tissues. By saying that we should forget about tailors because no-one wears clothes anyway is very disrepectful of our tailor friends.
One of the major complaints from chefs is that they dont like being forced to get BE components for their food just to be able to sell their products.
Should we really be trying to force our tissues on armoursmiths and create hate their too, as well ruining our relationship with tailors?
IMO we should work on improving what we've got rather than forcing more professions to have to buy our stuff and resenting us for it.
If jaato comes in here and wants to start up a diaglogue about armour tissues then sure, we can discuss it, as long as the tailor position on the issue is respected, however right now armoursmiths arent asking for this, we shouldnt force it one them
Gyopi
Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:01 pm
#86
To tell the truth, us tailors could use a "win", but that has nothing to do with bioengineers. As both a tailor and BE, I will tell you that I would much rather that BEs get *nothing* and the status quo stays forever than to get something that hurts tailors. Helping one profession at the expense of another is no good. Would BEs like it if tailors could create skilltapes which made tissues obsolete?
Seiryuu
Thu Aug 19, 2004 5:06 pm
#87
You were a Tailor, or at least had it in your sig when this debate started. I've certainly seen you refer to it more often. If nothing else, there was a perception of favoritism. I'm glad you have been a part of both professions though, because having an understanding of as many as possible helps in the long run.
When we only focus on how things benefit one profession, we end up with an unbalanced state because things were not considered as a whole. Mix insane armor, doc buffs, chef food, melee defense, etc. These were all done individually, and because of that, they have snowballed into making unstoppable characters.
I also have to disagree with more tissues not being a 'win'. If the tissues are done right on the ingrediant side, and are useful, how can we not benefit? Yes there are other things that can enhance our tissue business and the tailor profession, but I don't think we can't try for both at the same time.
How? Because once we get beyond the spike in the first month due to their newness, no increased business will result. You can still only put so many into a set of clothes, and you can still only wear one shirt under a suit of armor. For us all it means is more resources to stock in the end.
Showing a comprehensive plan (not necessarily a complicated one) that takes several angles into account has a much higher chance of being accepted as we want it than saying, "I want this. Gimmie." It shows the people making the decisions that a lot of thought has been put into the proposal, which always gives bonus points.
(If you wish to talk about "tissues done right", then I have to point you to 3/4 of our Chef tissues and many of our existing Tailor ones. You'll pardon me if I'm skeptical of it happening.)
Anyways, it's not that I am against adding tissues. It's that I think the benefit is negligable to either profession, especially BEs, in comparison to other fixes along with or instead of their addition. The root problem needs to be addressed, not a band-aid slapped on the wound, or giving us a tissue to blow our nose in.
To make people happy though, what should go into tissues? First, every working modifier in the game should be findable on skill tapes (or not at all, but equally across all similar professions).
Accuracy, Damage, Speed - skill tapes only.
Experimentation, Assembly - skill tapes only
Harvesting, Terrain Negotiation - skill tapes only
Basically the defining modifiers of a profession, especially if not tied to skill use, are the realm of skill tapes.
All resistances should be craftable - bleed, disease, poison, fire, melee, ranged
State resistances should be as well - stun, dizzy, blind, intimidate, posture changes, knockdown
Things that require a skill to use - Maskscent, Survey, Center of Being, Cover, etc.
To me resistances are ideal for clothes. By having a requirement for the need of a skill or ability, you ensure only those people benefit from the modifier. Not every command will get a tape, but almost every skill that is tied to a command should.
Not everything should necessarily go to BEs though. It might make more sense to give something to DEs (Harvesting, Foraging, revamped Med Forage), or other professions.
The problem is, to do what I would consider the 'right way' means it is beyond the scope of just giving new tissues and a quick fix. So if that is going to happen, the other problems some of us keep bringing up should be addressed at the same time to make it a comprehensive revamp...
Perhaps it is the quick fix that gets me. Tailor isn't broken per se, at least not in regard to putting tissues into clothes. Because of that, it seems like a waste to do a minor little addition when you need to address a larger game design issue.
When we only focus on how things benefit one profession, we end up with an unbalanced state because things were not considered as a whole. Mix insane armor, doc buffs, chef food, melee defense, etc. These were all done individually, and because of that, they have snowballed into making unstoppable characters.
I also have to disagree with more tissues not being a 'win'. If the tissues are done right on the ingrediant side, and are useful, how can we not benefit? Yes there are other things that can enhance our tissue business and the tailor profession, but I don't think we can't try for both at the same time.
How? Because once we get beyond the spike in the first month due to their newness, no increased business will result. You can still only put so many into a set of clothes, and you can still only wear one shirt under a suit of armor. For us all it means is more resources to stock in the end.
Showing a comprehensive plan (not necessarily a complicated one) that takes several angles into account has a much higher chance of being accepted as we want it than saying, "I want this. Gimmie." It shows the people making the decisions that a lot of thought has been put into the proposal, which always gives bonus points.
(If you wish to talk about "tissues done right", then I have to point you to 3/4 of our Chef tissues and many of our existing Tailor ones. You'll pardon me if I'm skeptical of it happening.)
Anyways, it's not that I am against adding tissues. It's that I think the benefit is negligable to either profession, especially BEs, in comparison to other fixes along with or instead of their addition. The root problem needs to be addressed, not a band-aid slapped on the wound, or giving us a tissue to blow our nose in.
To make people happy though, what should go into tissues? First, every working modifier in the game should be findable on skill tapes (or not at all, but equally across all similar professions).
Accuracy, Damage, Speed - skill tapes only.
Experimentation, Assembly - skill tapes only
Harvesting, Terrain Negotiation - skill tapes only
Basically the defining modifiers of a profession, especially if not tied to skill use, are the realm of skill tapes.
All resistances should be craftable - bleed, disease, poison, fire, melee, ranged
State resistances should be as well - stun, dizzy, blind, intimidate, posture changes, knockdown
Things that require a skill to use - Maskscent, Survey, Center of Being, Cover, etc.
To me resistances are ideal for clothes. By having a requirement for the need of a skill or ability, you ensure only those people benefit from the modifier. Not every command will get a tape, but almost every skill that is tied to a command should.
Not everything should necessarily go to BEs though. It might make more sense to give something to DEs (Harvesting, Foraging, revamped Med Forage), or other professions.
The problem is, to do what I would consider the 'right way' means it is beyond the scope of just giving new tissues and a quick fix. So if that is going to happen, the other problems some of us keep bringing up should be addressed at the same time to make it a comprehensive revamp...
Perhaps it is the quick fix that gets me. Tailor isn't broken per se, at least not in regard to putting tissues into clothes. Because of that, it seems like a waste to do a minor little addition when you need to address a larger game design issue.
Kevm
Thu Aug 19, 2004 5:34 pm
#88
Seiryuu wrote:
(If you wish to talk about "tissues done right", then I have to point you to 3/4 of our Chef tissues and many of our existing Tailor ones. You'll pardon me if I'm skeptical of it happening.)
LOL that's not something you and I disagree on. Actually, I think you and I agree on many things in this topic. I was just disapointed the thread overall didn't stay on topic with regards to the BE/Tailor interactions.
aswex
Thu Aug 19, 2004 7:08 pm
#89
Oof. I hate coming into a good thread four pages in because I have to read everything before posting. Unfortunately, there was a lot of off-topic debate that should have been handled in private messages. After filtering out the chaff, I'm prepared to share my thoughts on New Tailor Tissues. I believe tailor tissues should do things that armor cannot do, or cannot do well. I also believe that tailor tissues should make sense. As an example, the Scent Neutralization tissue makes sense. The Active Biosensors tissue makes me scratch my head. I mean, clothing that makes you a better healer? Huh? Well, too late now (and it's my best seller anyway, heh heh.) I like the idea of certain tissues only being put in certain types of clothing. Here's some opinions for you:
1) Terrain Negotiation 
Shoes/pants
Shoes/pants2) Ranged Defense
3) Strength/Constitution/Quickness/Stamina/Focus/Willpower I believe Lozareth had a good post about this: small permanent tissue bonus vs large temporary buff bonus.
I believe Lozareth had a good post about this: small permanent tissue bonus vs large temporary buff bonus.4) Defense vs State Effects/DOT Armor doesn't do this, as far as I know, so it's perfect for clothing. Dizzy: headgear, KD: shoes/pants, Blind: glasses, Intimidation, Disease, Poison
Armor doesn't do this, as far as I know, so it's perfect for clothing. Dizzy: headgear, KD: shoes/pants, Blind: glasses, Intimidation, Disease, Poison5) non-Kinetic/non-Energy Resists small bonus (10% max) cloaks only (can be worn over armor), large bonus for clothing that can't be worn with armor.
small bonus (10% max) cloaks only (can be worn over armor), large bonus for clothing that can't be worn with armor.6) Weak Tissues Tissues with +3 bonus max, easy resources. Used in anything, including jewelry. (I could see a hugemarket for +3 rings of _____ )
Tissues with +3 bonus max, easy resources. Used in anything, including jewelry. (I could see a hugemarket for +3 rings of _____ )7) DNA Sampling
8) Food/Drink Digestion (metabolism)
9) Various Crafting Assembly/Experimentation 
Doesn'tmake sense
Doesn'tmake sense10) Slicing Doesn'tmake sense
Doesn'tmake sense11) Droid Precision/Speed Doesn'tmake sense
Doesn'tmake sense12) Surveying Doesn'tmake sense
Doesn'tmake sense13) Trapping Doesn't make sense.
Doesn't make sense.I probably could have done better, but brain is tired now.
Suenr
Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:28 am
#90
Gyopi wrote:
As a tailor and a BE I can see both sides of this, but I think that the most important guildline is that we shouldn't ask for improvements to our own professions at the expense of others. This is also true of a few tailors who wanted the merchant profession to be removed and split up amoung crafters too. BE enhanced clothing is pretty much the only clothing that sells right now (and unfortunately only shirts since they fit under armor). After the combat rebalance, this will probably be even more true since clothing with some sort of bonus will be competitive with armor. A simple difference in encumberance will not be enough to make clothing a better choice over light armor like chitin, though. Asking for BE enhancements in armor jeapardizes the entire tailor profession because it takes away our main advantage over armor. Having more BE enhancements for clothing and only for clothing increases sales for both BEs and tailors. Allowing them also for armor would would probably help BEs even more, but at the expense of making tailor an unviable profession and making tailors as rare as chefs were before their revamp.
Increasing the tailor tissues we can make won't greatly increase tissue sales (over the long run), it only increases the different type of obscure resources that must stocked to fill tissue orders. On the other hand, increasing the number of slots where those tissues could be used would increase tissue sales even without new tissues. So, while I would like to see more tissues (hopefully more useful with less rare components than some tissues are not), we really need more places to put those tissues in order to really sell more of them. Of course, it would also help if clothes eventually needed replacement.
So, in order of importance to me would be more slots to put tissues (more clothing wearable with armor and a backpack), the need to replace that clothing eventually, and then more new tissues. Of course, seeing all three of those things happen at the same time would be the best.
Kevm
Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:33 am
#91
Seiryuu wrote:
Pot meet Kettle.
Actually I think he has a very good point. Here is a thread started by our correspsondent with the sole purpose of discussing how we can work with the tailors to add aditional tissues to the tailor line. A proposal that would allow a 'win' on both sides.
And what happened? It was lethally hijacked into discussions about adding tissues to armor, and how those tissues would be better for BE's since everyone wears armor and you can ony wear shirts under that armor. How does this have anything to do with helping tailors get additional tissues added to their products? Nothing.
What if Nancy got the CH Correspondent to have a discussion with the CH's about how BE pets could be made better and improve the CH profession. How would we, as a group, react if instead that thread got hijacked by people saying 'Why bother with these BE pets?? Lets start talking about ideas to get DE's to create augmentations to wild pets! That waynobody would need BE pets at all!'
I can pretty well guess the responses the BE's would make to such ideas. So which are we? The pot or the kettle?