Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: New Tailor Tissues
Whats wrong with giving people the choice between an outfit that looks stunning
and is packed with juicy bonuses and a set of armour that gives a 60% damage reduction?Why cant there be a place for both armour AND BE clothes? Why shouldnt clothes be on a par with armour? Why shouldnt you be able to choose depending on the situation what to wear?
btw for those mentioning jedi not wearing armour, technically they do - Jedi robes have hidden resist stats that are supposed to be on par with what the new composite will be like post CB.
NancyJ wrote:
Think outside of the box people, why should it be that everyone wears armor in combat and thats that?
Whats wrong with giving people the choice between an outfit that looks stunning
Why cant there be a place for both armour AND BE clothes? Why shouldnt clothes be on a par with armour? Why shouldnt you be able to choose depending on the situation what to wear?
btw for those mentioning jedi not wearing armour, technically they do - Jedi robes have hidden resist stats that are supposed to be on par with what the new composite will be like post CB.
Outside the box thinking is exactly what I am doing. That thinking is going against the grain of what the BE/Tailor Combos like however.
To explain my point of view and why armor is the direction to go and not clothes is my alt is a wookiee. My first holo was tailor back inNov or whenever it that was when I looted it. Before wookiee armor my 'armor' was pets. I did make myself several BE Clothing sets for my wookiee to wear the week or so I was a master tailor. Now that there is wookiee armor out I can't tell you where I put those clothes because I do not know and I have no plans on going looking for them. Well as soon as I get back to DNA sampling for that mast scent I will.
The point is the difference between armor and no armor isn't small. It is huge, really huge. As in you can do 10 times more in armor than not in armor. There isn't a skill mod in this game that will take a 2000 point blow down to 200 points like armor can. You can get mods up to +25for making thatblowmiss, but sooner or later one will land.Once you get hit, you're done. With armor you get hit, you keep going. I think that is something that may not be understood here. To be honest I had no idea how powerful armor truely was until I got that armor. So that should answer the question why clothes and armor aren't on par with each other reguardless of the enhancement currently.
The only way for clothes to become on par with armor is either tissue to become super powerful (doubtful)or for armor to become very weak. If armor becomes that weak, it is a huge nerf to all combat classes. The general trend right now is going away from a crafter based economy and go towards a loot base economy.So with thattrend you need to loot to getthe loot.If theonly viable combat professionends up beingjedi, then weaponsmiths are done. Tailors won't even be making around town wear. Armorsmiths are done. Thank the Devs that Jedi can still eat. My chef will keep his job. Be very careful what you ask for here, because you may just get it. Seeing the big picture, the popularity of jedi, the nerfing of the other combat classes and everyone going up to space will have a huge impact on the economy of this game. I would hope that when we think outside of the box, that we go back and look at the whole box and think about how these changes will affect the whole game not just one profession.
If we really want to go down this road, then I would invite the combat correspondents to read through this and give their input. That is where the best input will come from since it is their professions that will be truely enhancing here, not ours. They may know of some enhancements to make clothes a viable altnerative to armor. That is still a big stretch and one I don't see happening, but I could be wrong there. I see the stretch between lower level armors and the higher level armors being breached with our tissues though. Either way getting rid of the sea of composite armor wearers at the mining outpost would be a welcomed sight. That could make armor a bit more fashionable as it would provide more of a choice that the current 'What shall I color my composite today?'.
BTW jedi get the huge resists from the Defender Jedi skills where they can block most ranged shots not really their robes which have been complained about greatly for their lack of protection. If composite truely does go down to that level then both tailors and armorsmiths are done in this game as everyone will be needing the Jedi defender skills to survive.
If we can't get more clothes on with armor, and/or in armor itself, or super powered tissues that make up for that 80-90% damage reduction armor gives, thenit is pointless to put new combat tissues in the game since ourcurrent ones are not used as heavially as they could be. We can however look fornon-combatish tissues that would be useful and enhance the game without upseting the current balance of the game.
Some noncombatish tissues that would be nice.
+ TerrianHandling as a power up for the sole component tailors make for shoes.
+ Storage 1-5 range for backpacks to give them a boost.
+ Repair similar to the current force sensitive power. Best used in a tool belt or crafter pants.
+ General CraftingAssembly that would go into gloves to limit its impact. I would say 1-10 range would be balanced.
+ Brust Run Duration - enhance that can go in soles like the terrian bonus above. Good for getting around laggy towns where bikes get too laggy.
+ Musical/Dancer Buff Enhancement - currently only lootable, but in demand. Can also help balance out that mind pool problem by giving mind buffs a boost.
How is saying everyone wears armour and they always will, thinking outside the box? Thats simply reinforcing the idea that armour is the only option so we shouldnt bother trying to help tailors make clothes more of a viable option.
As for wookies, that example just doesnt fit the rest of the races since wookies have only 1 item (if you dont include bandoliers) that can take combat tissues. Whereas a fully kitted out player of any other race could have 3 different mods (or 3 the same and stack the bonuses)
Also if the tailoring side was changed to include more schematics that used RFPs then a fully BE'd suit could provide even more bonuses.
NancyJ wrote:
How is saying everyone wears armour and they always will, thinking outside the box? Thats simply reinforcing the idea that armour is the only option so we shouldnt bother trying to help tailors make clothes more of a viable option.
I am not aginst clothes. I wore them in combat for many many months before us wookiees got armor. Replacing armor with clothes is outside the box as much as putting the tissues in armor. As to what armor was intended to come out like, well someone I would hope did the math and figured out what the limits on armor would have been. I think the unintended item was how common that armor would become. Those 13 BER harvesters upset the balance in many ways. Great resources can be had in huge quantities. The game wasn't as hard as intended.
However the wookiee is now out of the bag and into real armor. Anything less than the current standard is a nerf. An over nerf to all the non-jedi combat professions will simply push everyone to become a jedi or just play in space and forget about the now frustrating ground game. That is the issue I would like advoided here and why I don't see clothes, unless there are some very uber tissues thatI haveyetto see an idea for or can even come up with one myself, as a viable alternitive to armor. Jedi would be the viable alternative to nerfed armor, not clothes. Again, not avocating everyone go play jedi or strictly use armor, but people will use whatever is best and that aspect needs to be accounted for.
Also I am uncomfrontable with the idea of stealing from Peter to pay Paul. Nerfing armor and taking away the armorsmiths' business and giving it to tailors I would imagine is just as offensive to Armorsmiths as istaking all the tissues away from Tailors is to them. I would rather see a system where all 3 professions contribute to combat wear that keeps the non-jedi professions on par with jedi. That way no profession(s) are left out in the cold or are damaged. That happened to creature handler and I would hate to see that happen to more professions. Though I don't see that being advoided especially when the vultures swoop in to gobble up what they can.
As to wookiees only getting the one tissue to wear unless they give up their backpack, that is an issue that needs to be addressed. Though this wookiee is quite happy with his armor and just isn't feeling the need for those tissues anymore, sorry to say. Those mask scent tissuesare very useful to BEs though. Being a wookiee and losing that backpack while out sampling is harsh though, and at the very least that issue needs addressing. Crafting tissues into cerimonial armor does address that issue though it could be address by changing the requirements on the wookiee clothes as well.
Adjusting clothes does not address the whole armor or tissue issue though. I have yet to see a tissue powerful enough to give up armor for and if there were such a thing it would be unfair to armorsmiths. Armorsmiths just lost all their Jedi customers and that population is in for a big boom soon. Though tailors lost that customer base as well. Nerfing armorsmith even further to beef up tailor seems a bit cruelto armorsmiths, even if they do very well money wise. The fairest solution in my opinion is to have all 3 professions involved in the making of combat wear and have that combat wear good enough to keep non-jedi competitive. I gave my solution to that problem. If you don't like it, that is fine, but please give some other solutions that may be more suitable and are fair to both armorsmith, BE, tailor and the combat professions that will be using these products.
Meplorium wrote:
The topic, since this is the BE forum, not the tailor one, are our BE tissues. Our correspondent can't go to the retreat and therefore needs someone to go in proxy for her. I wouldn't call this a tailor tissue thread, rather a BE tissue thread.
What's the name of the thread? Oh yeah. 'New Tailor Tissues'. You want to talk chef tissues, pets, petstims, or armor tissues, go to another thread.
The topic of this thread is NEW TAILOR TISSUES.
/points at title of thread
/point at first post of thread
/shrugs
what can you say about someone who flat out cannot read? I will agree with Meplorium on one point though. The topic of this thread was hijacked.
1of2alts wrote:
Meplorium wrote:
The topic, since this is the BE forum, not the tailor one, are our BE tissues. Our correspondent can't go to the retreat and therefore needs someone to go in proxy for her. I wouldn't call this a tailor tissue thread, rather a BE tissue thread.
What's the name of the thread? Oh yeah. 'New Tailor Tissues'. You want to talk chef tissues, pets, petstims, or armor tissues, go to another thread.
The topic of this thread is NEW TAILOR TISSUES.
ArthurDentOnBria wrote:
Look, if this were about "what is best for BE" then it's clear what the answer is:
So we can all act like spoiled brats (or chefs, same difference) and scream "mine, mine mine", or we can try to be mature, reasonable adults, and focus on positive changes to the system without all the trash talk and all this other nonesense. That's what this summit is for, for gosh sakes, balance and trying to help the devs come up with something kick-butt that works for everyone. By starting this off on the wrong foot and an "every man for himself" attitude we guarantee ourselves of no positive changes occuring.
Message Edited by ArthurDentOnBria on 08-06-2004 11:38 AM
/agreed
You gave some excellent suggestion on new tissues. I gave some excellent suggestions on how to make those tissue see more use. Unfortunetly it was the tailors that high jacked this tread with the "mine, mine, mine" additude toward our tissues.
Balance is excellent to have. Right now armor is very unbalanced and needs changed. Why I gave the suggest for our tissues in lower leveler armors to balance out the armor situation and get our tissues used more. Personally I think that is kick butt and would work very well. I think all of us are coming from the same place, just we see things a bit differently. That is why coming to the table with an open mind is very useful. If people go to this retreatwith closed minded about the issues then we miss our chance to get that 'kick-butt' system we are all wanting. Go to the table with an open mind and consider all possibilities and how those possibilities can help everyone involved. Don't go there thinking "this is how things worked before therefore anything new is bad bad bad and shouldn't be done". Give all ideas a chance and evaluate them on their own merits, not how it would affect your personal business.
Meplorium wrote:
Unfortunetly it was the tailors that high jacked this tread with the "mine, mine, mine" additude toward our tissues.
How blind is one who refuses to see?
This thread's topic is tailor tissues, the tailors have just as much right talking in this thread as BE's do. Who hijacked this thread are certain BE's who can't stay on topic and wanted to talk about armor tissues.
Gyopi wrote:
Seiryuu wrote:
A very good idea, Meplorium. Allowing tissues in the low-end armor is a great for balancing the types.
You do realize that if armor could be BE enhanced, except for occasionally a few items for doctors, no one would ever buy another piece of BE enhanced clothing again. It might help drum up BE business a little, but it would completely steal the only profitable items from tailors away and make it an almost compltely unviable profession.
The problem that some tailors here have is they think people run into battle in a full suit of clothes. A few do yes, but most run into battle with a full suit of armor. Please do not think I am avocating that clothing not be in the game or anything like that. I am simply taking the reality of how this game is played and how best to enhance the use of the BE tissues. I am also saying that tailors should not be taken out of the loop. I am on your side if you can believe that. People aren't wearing anything more than a shirt that tailors make when they go into combat. If they are jedi they don't wear anything at all. Really the tailors and BE should be working together to find a way to get our goods into combat. How this game is played means that is armor. How to make those tailor subcomponents needed beyond a few simple skills is have the final stats on that sub component based on both the BE experimentation and the tailor experimentation. That is what the tailors should be fighting for in this. Get their goods to matter in combat and have it based on their level of experimentation.
The reality of it is that the usefulness of our tissues and tailors products in combat will not be fully realized until it can some how be incorperated with armor. If the idea of BE tissues in armor is so obsence to the tailors for whatever reason, still don't understand why that is, then we should try for more clothing options/items to be worn while in armor. Otherwise we are in the same lose-lose situation that we are in now and we lose this oppertunity to make our current tissues and any new tissues worthwhile.
I also feel that there should be a lot more non-combat related tissues for clothes. That would make the clothes more useful in areas where armor isn't worn. Right now I can only think of two, and they deal with healing. I think that is the area where the BE Clothes can really shine and do well.
NancyJ wrote:
Think outside of the box people, why should it be that everyone wears armor in combat and thats that?
Whats wrong with giving people the choice between an outfit that looks stunning
Why cant there be a place for both armour AND BE clothes? Why shouldnt clothes be on a par with armour? Why shouldnt you be able to choose depending on the situation what to wear?
Tailors already have tissues, they like them and they want more, we should be supporting them, not telling them that we should be giving their business to armoursmiths, and they should be happy just to make the cloth.