Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: Please put some experimental points at MBE level
Eskie wrote:
Separating the points will not benefit us, the crafting docs, but current BEs. By keeping me from entering the current BE market I dont win a thing. I only win in the current situation, which enables me to spend 14 skill points to get all relevant additive crafting capabilities at full experimentation.
Since it will be hard to convince the devs to separate them again, I also would support to move the additive schematics current BEs dont want to lose to dabblers into the master box.
On another note, I noticed your post in the voting thread.
Leaving the current TC implementation as it is for now, but already scheduling a re-distribution of experimentation points to the master box, is not a good option. You tell BE 0004 crafters that they can be BE 0004, start up their businesses, collect their resources and get themselves a name, but that you will also make them spend 43 skill points more soon without them getting anything in return. If you want to nerf, do it now when people are entitled to a free re-spec anyway.
Moving experimentation points to master remains a nerf to a certain group of people, no matter when you do it, and I stated enough reasons here why this nerf is not necessary to keep BE-dabbler-turned docs from entering current BE markets: Simply because there are at least 2 alternatives that achieve the same result with less nerfing.
You're right, to do it later wouldn't be right, so they should do it now. However this statement is true:
The point is IT'S NOT YOUR MARKET. It's a BE market now. Not putting experiment points in the Master box is, to use YOUR words, NOT FAIR. A dabbler should NEVER be as good as a MASTER, it's, YOUR words again, NOT FAIR.
They are the masters of their profession. We are the exiled doctors moving over to their turf.In reality, the only reason the devs wouldn't move someexperimentation points to MBE would be for the wounded ego of we docs, not out of somegame balance reason.
I feel as if I've been stabbed in the back by SOE already, however I won't use that feeling in order to argue a point that doesn't make sense.
Keeping ME and BE points separate ONLY benefits we docs if the game stays the same.However it keeps the two fields separate whichwould be a mistake.
It makessensefor the devs tomove exp points to MBE, (but I don't want them too becauseI'm still selfish)... 
However ifthey DO, it would make sense to me.
In the end we crafting docs will be faced with a difficult choice, go MBE or drop crafting. We won't be able to keep our MD'sand the med crafting line ofBE very long.
Message Edited by Dorelli on 04-11-2005 02:21 AM
I have been called to appear demanding and such because I want to continue what I am doing now at no penalty for me. If somebody says trying to keep what I have is deserving, so be it, but read on.
With CU, med crafting gets moved to BE. The only reason this is happening to me seems to be that doctor is considered a combat profession by the devs, and if it would stay in doc and we would get extra health and combat levels for crafting boxes. Doc and CM would be the only professions having this, and therefore it wouldnt be balanced.
So the former medical crafting is in BE. But the devs also allow me to keep what I have been doing before by allowing me to move medic x4xx and master medic to novice BE through BE xxx4, also granting me the experimentation skills I have now. I do not gain anything by crafting moved to BE.
On the other hand, current BEs get a new market they can cater to at a cost of _0_ skill points. BEs are given more business opportunities than they already have without having to take additional crafting boxes.
That is the implementation that is on TC-Ep3 currently. What worries me is the scout prereq currently showing up in TC-Ep3, but thats another story. The CU docs stated medic xxx4 to be the only requirement for novice BE. As it is laid out in the CU docs, current healing/crafter docs are not nerfed in any way.
Now several BEs here noticed that a dabbling x4x4 could now outcraft them in their current markets, which is a perfectly legal claim. I do support any BE wanting not to have current BE markets invaded by dabblers.
But the more I read through this thread, it becomes more and more apparent to me that some MBEs do not only want to protect their current market, but also want to have an advantage over the current docs in the new medicine market.
These MBEs do not have to spend a single skill point more than they spend now and gain full crafting abilities in a whole new market. This market is _not_ a new market, it is a market where current docs craft in. But in addition to gaining full crafting capabilities, they also ask for full crafting capabilities being removed from the people already in that market, unless they spend _more_ skill points than they spend now to do the things they do.
A current healing/crafting doc gets called deserving for wanting to keep doing what he does now with no penalties. A current master BE will get a new market with no additional cost to him, and he gets to be as good in this market as the people already in that market instantly. Yet instead of being happy about this, this MBE asks for the current owners of that market to be made inferior to him.
If you call me demanding for wanting to keep what I have now with no penalties, I call this MBE even more demanding.
It will be a BE market, but it is not a _new_ market that is opened up to BEs. It is an existing market in which the BEs are the newcomers, and in no way deserves a newcomer to be better at something than somebody doing it already for a long time. I dont mind having competition from current BEs, I dont mind them having the same opportunities in my market than I do, but I do mind newcomers asking not only to be on par with an old crafter like me, but to be better at it instantly without having to invest more skill points. A Master of Medical Crafting should never be surpassed by a newb of Medical Crafting instantly. Just like a Master of Pet or Additive Crafting should never be surpassed by a newb of Pet or Additive Crafting.
Message Edited by Eskie on 04-11-2005 12:27 PM
LloydPickering wrote:
Eskie wrote:
A current master BE will get a new market with no additional cost to him, and he gets to be as good in this market as the people already in that market instantly.
Are you forgetting that current BEs who are often rather poor will need to fork out on SEAs to compete in this market?..The problem isn't just that an 0004 Doc dabbler can craft the same as a Master, its that they can OUTCRAFT a master.
If Med tapes give EXP in the Med stuff, thats fine, thats how it was before, but it gives Docs an unfair advantage over the current Masters. Moving schematics from 0400 to Master would help make the old Master BEs be able to retain their current Market.
Personally, I want MSN/BSN/INN in Master, and some of the Tailor tissues that are more popular (Can't tell till we see what happens in the CURB) in Master. I don't mind the SEAs for docs if we get thrown the bone of stopping dabblers outcraft us in our current markets.
QFE!
Exactly _that_ is the common ground I am trying to settle on - either remove my medical experimentation from current BE products, or make the valueable schematics inaccessible to me if I do not want to spend master skill points. But only make me pay if I want to enter the traditional BE markets, not for staying in my own market.
And I did not forget the SEAs, I already spent my fair share to be a better medicine crafter than a pure 10pt doc, so any 10pt BE wanting to compete with me in the _medical_ market should be required to fall asuit. But there are also crafting 10 point docs around, those are the ones crafting themselves to be able to buff / heal guildies and friends and not selling to the public. BEs will be on par with those instantly. I dont take SEAs into the equation because anybody can get them. What matters is the maximum possible experimentation for every market. You cannot compare a BE without SEA to a doc with SEA, because the BE could also get the SEA.
Eskie wrote:
LloydPickering wrote:
Eskie wrote:
A current master BE will get a new market with no additional cost to him, and he gets to be as good in this market as the people already in that market instantly.
Are you forgetting that current BEs who are often rather poor will need to fork out on SEAs to compete in this market?..The problem isn't just that an 0004 Doc dabbler can craft the same as a Master, its that they can OUTCRAFT a master.
If Med tapes give EXP in the Med stuff, thats fine, thats how it was before, but it gives Docs an unfair advantage over the current Masters. Moving schematics from 0400 to Master would help make the old Master BEs be able to retain their current Market.
Personally, I want MSN/BSN/INN in Master, and some of the Tailor tissues that are more popular (Can't tell till we see what happens in the CURB) in Master. I don't mind the SEAs for docs if we get thrown the bone of stopping dabblers outcraft us in our current markets.
QFE!
Exactly _that_ is the common ground I am trying to settle on - either remove my medical experimentation from current BE products, or make the valueable schematics inaccessible to me if I do not want to spend master skill points. But only make me pay if I want to enter the traditional BE markets, not for staying in my own market.
And I did not forget the SEAs, I already spent my fair share to be a better medicine crafter than a pure 10pt doc, so any 10pt BE wanting to compete with me in the _medical_ market should be required to fall asuit. But there are also crafting 10 point docs around, those are the ones crafting themselves to be able to buff / heal guildies and friends and not selling to the public. BEs will be on par with those instantly. I dont take SEAs into the equation because anybody can get them. What matters is the maximum possible experimentation for every market. You cannot compare a BE without SEA to a doc with SEA, because the BE could also get the SEA.
A couple of things not addressed in this thread yet:
1. Docs are on the list of professions that will be getting a respec under the CU, BE's are not.
2. As you said yourself, you already have the 12 point suit because you've needed one. BE's do not since we've never need it.
3. Now you're coming out and saying you feel that since BE isgetting this new line, WE should HAVE to get SEA's to compete with YOU. The only thing I've heard out of you is that YOU want to move into BE and instantly become BETTER crafter than all of the current BE's. Everthing you've said has been to protect YOU.
4. Moving the "best" BE tissues and additives to master isn't really an option. I'm not sure how the CU will affect all of the different tailor tissues, but most of them will still be very viable and no one is sure how foods will change. Moving all of these schematic to master would make BE one of the most top heavy professions in the game. BSN, INN, MNS, TR, EM's.....pretty long list.
Aleskander wrote:
A couple of things not addressed in this thread yet:1. Docs are on the list of professions that will be getting a respec under the CU, BE's are not.
2. As you said yourself, you already have the 12 point suit because you've needed one. BE's do not since we've never need it.
3. Now you're coming out and saying you feel that since BE is getting this new line, WE should HAVE to get SEA's to compete with YOU. The only thing I've heard out of you is that YOU want to move into BE and instantly become BETTER crafter than all of the current BE's. Everthing you've said has been to protect YOU.
4. Moving the "best" BE tissues and additives to master isn't really an option. I'm not sure how the CU will affect all of the different tailor tissues, but most of them will still be very viable and no one is sure how foods will change. Moving all of these schematic to master would make BE one of the most top heavy professions in the game. BSN, INN, MNS, TR, EM's.....pretty long list.
It may make it top heavy...but how else are we supposed to protect our interests, while allowing Docs their interests? Splitting into BE Exp and Med Exp is unrealistic. That leaves only moving schems to a non dabbler area...ie Master.
Under the current system, you need master to be able to compete effectively in any of the tissues, particularly Chef tissues where for BSN the max you can reach is about 84 using resources for 88s. This is completely negated with the new 12pt Doc influx. The system, as it stands, its top heavy in that you need to be a Master to craft effectively, all I want, and most MBEs would agree with me, is to keep that same need for Master BE.
Under the CURB there is no reason to take up MBE unless you are a Pet crafter or want to make INNs etc...no other reasons. there is no other bonus for being an MBE. This could potentially DESTROY the Chef tissue market if not changed, which IMHO is already on the edge.
Marrow1 wrote:
Personally if it were up to me I would have done one of three things:
1. Put +10 in the master BE
I like this. This makes a Master level crafter a Master and a reasone to be MBE
2. A. Put +5 in the master BE and put +5 in the Master medic
B. change the skill points for master medic to 1
C. changed the prerecs of BE to medic crafting only (no scout)
This is a good one, but as someone pointed out, to craft pets, you still need the explore tree in scout. Personally, I already have that tree...and MDoc for that matter.
3. Put a few of the med schems in the Master BE and something in the M. Medic box.
This is a good idea too, but given that there is no experimentation in MBE, it would only be partially effective. Combine 1 and 3 or 2 and 3 to get the optimum mix.
Option one is the simple one. It is rather easy to get a +10 crafting outfit. So getting to be a 10pt BE crafter would not take much work if you only wanted to go for 0004 BE. I am not sure how important being greater than 10pts will be until I can craft a few of the higher end items. If it is like most crafted items the 10pts will finish up the power line. Anything over 10pts adds a few charges which is nice but not a make it or break it. Resources are more important 9 out of 10 times. There isnt a med use to push down, for example, so for stims the only thing one could do is add charges. As for Enhancers there may be a duration line but since from the schems there does not seem to be a dependence of stats for duration so my guess is that there is not a duration line to exp on. If that is the case then again, the extra point will just add charges. Not a biggy. However, it still rewards those who master the prof by enabling them to get 12pts while a dabbler is only 11pts.
I don't know how the new crafting will go. Looking at the resources required for the med items, titanium aluminum for one, I don't think the extra points will actuallyhelp that much. Currently BE items are always limited by the resources not the exp points, except pets. Plus, after listening to the Armor Smiths yelling, it seems the Dev's have decided to make crafting simpler. Insted oftwo or moreexperimentation lines, they have reduced everything to just a single line...much like BE has always been except for pets.
Option 2 takes a bit more work to understand. By changing the skill points around a BE would need to spend 14 more points to master medic and BE than they currently spend master BE alone. By putting the +5 in MBE and MMedic you reward mastering medic which as it stand is rather useless. Also, if someone does not want to master those prof then they are only shy +1 which as I stated earlier is not hard to aquire. (yes I know everyone will hate this idea, just a thought)
I never even looked at the Master Medic box on TC. What's currently in it? It would actually cost you the SP for the CM tree plus the master box if you're a Doc....for BE that would actually mean 3 extra trees and master.
Option 3 is much like we have today in Live for meds. In M. Medic you get a schem (since you ahve to master it anyway to get to doc/cm it is moot point). All of the skill points for doc/cm are in the crafting lines, none in the master box. The only reason to get master doc really from a crafting standpoint is to get the key schems. To this date I know of no 0004 docs. From what I see the Stim D and C will be the bread and butter of BE med crafting. Where ever those schems go that is where the money will be. Puting one of them in the Master box would be very large driving force to master the prof.
Yes, moving Stim D's to master will help. But I think only if option 1 or 2 is added to this. If you don't move something to master level in the experimentation portion, then the 0004 dabbler will just not craft that item...unless you move the health buff there. That will be one of the major items people will want. Look at buffs now. People will stand in line for a 100 pt difference...not that it really matters.
If they remove the Scout from BE then BE will be the cheapest crafting prof in the game by far. As much as I love crafting meds, I dont really want to see BE become a dabble prof any more than it already is.
Thank you. As for making it one of the cheapest...well, it just brings it in-line with all the other crafting professions: Novice Art, 4000 (or 0400) and Master crafting profession ie WS, AS, Chef etc. None of which have a dabbler out crafting a Master.
Welcome to the BE forum Marrow
Aleskander wrote:
(...)A couple of things not addressed in this thread yet:
1. Docs are on the list of professions that will be getting a respec under the CU, BE's are not.
2. As you said yourself, you already have the 12 point suit because you've needed one. BE's do not since we've never need it.
3. Now you're coming out and saying you feel that since BE is getting this new line, WE should HAVE to get SEA's to compete with YOU. The only thing I've heard out of you is that YOU want to move into BE and instantly become BETTER crafter than all of the current BE's. Everthing you've said has been to protect YOU.
4. Moving the "best" BE tissues and additives to master isn't really an option. I'm not sure how the CU will affect all of the different tailor tissues, but most of them will still be very viable and no one is sure how foods will change. Moving all of these schematic to master would make BE one of the most top heavy professions in the game. BSN, INN, MNS, TR, EM's.....pretty long list.
Res
1) Uhm - and in the discussion of who should craft in what market at what level with how many experimentation points available to him this matters? You get a whole new market at 0 skill point change, why should you be able to change your skill points then, but that is my personal opinion, I dont mind you getting a respec in any way if you push for it.
2) Yes, I have a 12pt suit, and I said I already spend a lot of money on that suit to be able to craft better meds. MDs do not need an experimentation suit to craft in the buff market, resources matter 9 out of 10 times as Marrow1 already said. You can call having an experimentation suit as wanting to be as perfect as possible, but in the end, a 12pt suit doesnt pay out a lot. A lot of it just is hype. And _I_ spent money to be a better _medical_ crafter than anybody that just finished grinding MD. BEs never spent money to be a better _medical_ crafter, so do not expect to be at the same _medical crafting_ level as me. You can realistically expect to be at the same level as a current 10pt MD, and I fully support you in this point.
3) Everything I have said is to protect ME in MY CURRENT market and to protect YOU in YOUR CURRENT MARKET. You always point out how I try to protect my achievements as MD from any BE that never did any medical crafting before. But on top of protecting my business, I also pointed out several times that I want YOU to be able to protect YOUR TRADITIONAL BUSINESS from me being able to dabble in it. Do not just quote what suits you, quote the whole thing.
On a sidenote, I am moving into the BE profession, but current BEs are moving into my market. I do not want a current 10pt doc to be a better crafter than a current 10 pt MBE, I want a current 10pt doc to be an equal crafter compared to a 10pt BE in my current market (the future BE medical market) and I want to be a novice in traditional BE markets. The reason for me wanting to be better _in the medical market_ than the 10pt doc or 10pt BE is explained in point 2).
4) I dont care what you move to the master box, choose all the schems you feel only a master should have. But keep your hands off the medical schems, because a BE currently has no advanced medical schems, I have them and they belong into my current market. Trying to move those from BE 0004 is trying to make a current 10pt BE a better medical crafter than a current 10pt MD.
The more top-heavy BE is, the less dabbler friendly it will be. You always said you wanted to get rid of dabblers, so whats wrong with it?
I am protecting my medical market. My medical market currently is everybody who can use stims, buffs, cures and so on. My current market is everybody having novice medic and up. If you can use a stimpack, you are currently a potential customer of me. And Novice Medic is part of a lot of templates, _INCLUDING BE_. Ever used a stim while out sampling creatures? You belong into my market! Ever wanted 10pt subcomponents for pet stims? You belong to my market. Stims will still exist post-CU, and current buffs will be called enhancers. I fail to see how you can insist on having a fresh market given to BE instead of having an existing market moved to BE.
As I said several times, I am all for keeping BEs from being threatened by BE-0004-turned docs dabbling in their profession, so if you dont see me supporting BEs, I dont really care anymore, because others apparently see it. Just because I dont want your protection at my expense doesnt make me a promoter of BE dabblers invading your _current_ market.
Aleskander wrote:I can see all you want is to protect yourself as a Doc...that's fine. You be a doc. I'm looking out for BE.....and I'm sorry that SOE decided to move stims and enhancers to the BE profession but we BE's don't have any control over that. We just don't want a dabbler to be as good as a Master....which is what you're calling for...actually, you want to move in with your 12 point suit and be BETTER than a MBE.But the key here is BIO-ENGINEER. If you craft ANYTHING in the BE profession, you are a BE not a doc.There is NO CURRENT enhancer, stim market as seen after the CU. EVERYTHING IS CHANGING. Get off your wanting to protect your current market. Your current market is DOCTORS.My current market are CH's, Chefs, Tailors and a few non-CH pets for the average player. Many of the NEW Meds will be useable by ANYONE, not just Doc's and CM's.
Im with eskie on this one...Med crafting is part of BE now...but then there is no old skool BE in that we are now using Med Exp not BE Exp. The two have merged together, but it isn't a case of Docs becoming BEs...its a case of both become each other under the BE name...
Im not worried about the Med crafting stuff, in fact its better for me as I am MDoc/BE...I get SPs back
But from the POV as a pet/tissue making BE...I do not want to be in a situation where a 12pt Doc dabbles with 4040 and outcrafts me. In the case of meds...I also don't expect to see a MBE outraft a 12pt Doc unless the MBE also has a 12pt suit.in my mind it should be 10pt MBE crafts the best Tissues/Pets and 12pt (Ex)Doc BE0004 crafts the best meds.
Personally I'd rather not have all the med crafting in BE...but if we are stuck with it, the Devs need to be fair to existing BEs, and to existing Docs.
LloydPickering wrote:
Aleskander wrote:
I can see all you want is to protect yourself as a Doc...that's fine. You be a doc. I'm looking out for BE.....and I'm sorry that SOE decided to move stims and enhancers to the BE profession but we BE's don't have any control over that. We just don't want a dabbler to be as good as a Master....which is what you're calling for...actually, you want to move in with your 12 point suit and be BETTER than a MBE.
But the key here is BIO-ENGINEER. If you craft ANYTHING in the BE profession, you are a BE not a doc.
There is NO CURRENT enhancer, stim market as seen after the CU. EVERYTHING IS CHANGING. Get off your wanting to protect your current market. Your current market is DOCTORS.
My current market are CH's, Chefs, Tailors and a few non-CH pets for the average player. Many of the NEW Meds will be useable by ANYONE, not just Doc's and CM's.
Im with eskie on this one...Med crafting is part of BE now...but then there is no old skool BE in that we are now using Med Exp not BE Exp. The two have merged together, but it isn't a case of Docs becoming BEs...its a case of both become each other under the BE name...
Im not worried about the Med crafting stuff, in fact its better for me as I am MDoc/BE...I get SPs back
in my mind it should be 10pt MBE crafts the best Tissues/Pets and 12pt (Ex)Doc BE0004 crafts the best meds.
Personally I'd rather not have all the med crafting in BE...but if we are stuck with it, the Devs need to be fair to existing BEs, and to existing Docs.
I'm a MDoc/MBE so the change is good for me too. I get back the SP so maybe I can finally get some sort of combat skill or maybe a vendor.
The point I've tried to make is that, unfair as it is to Doc's, is that a Master level crafter should be the best. Period. Even Eskie has said that.
Now, there are several ways to do that:
1. Make the old BE tissues use BE exp like we do now.
Good - This would work to keep the medical dabblers out of the BE tissue business.
Bad - This requires a lot of recoding....which is what the CU is all about. But it's a lot easier for them to make it one type of experimentation. This is the only bad part of this solution I can see. This would be the best choice for the doctors, but means there would be no reason for anyone to spend the sp for MBE except those crafting chef/tailor tissues and pets.
2. Move some of the Med experimentation to Master BE.
Good - Makes MBE worth getting. Keeps dabblers from getting into the BE tissue market. Makes a Master level crafter from being out crafted by a dabbler.
Bad - Makes current doctors that wish to craft meds go MBE to compete with MBE's
3. Move the most "useful" schematics to MBE
Good - Keeps dabblers out of the BE tissue market
Bad - Puts everything into the Master block.....and are yo going to let the Dev's decide what goes there? They put INN's there. What about pets? If they did that, they'd have to put the CL10 skins (the biggest selling pets) and all mounts in Master along with pet stims, vitality packs and all the higher end tailor tissues. Just not very practical.
I'm not out to nerf existing doc's. Everyone is getting nerfed as it is.
I just think the best solution is to make a master level crafter, the master....not make the dabbler as good as or better than the master.
Can anyone give me a valid reason a dabbler can craft as well as a master? - Please don't usemedical craftingmoving to BE. Can anyone show me a Doc 0004 (or anyother profession) that can craft as well as a Master in that profession?