Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: New Tailor Tissues
Suenr
Fri Aug 06, 2004 11:23 am
#53
1of2alts wrote:
Suenr wrote:I am finding this talk about how tailors being insulted by being stuck making subcomponents in a thread about us making more subcomponents for tailors rather insulting. I would love to see more tissues, and I would love to see them used by people wearing armor. I would prefer to see it by having more clothing items that can be worn while wearing armor (really, who wears hard, cold armor over their bare skin or wears boots and shoes with no socks anyway?), but having them built into armor is a real option to me as well. I don't want to hurt the tailors feelings, but this is the BE board and the most important thing is to increase the usefulness of BE items. And to increase the usefulness of our tissue line, we must not only come up with more useful tissues, but the ability to use them while wearing armor.I think a lot of people need to re-read the start of this thread by NancyJ. Here it is:
N'Jessi is going to be pushing for new tailor tissues at the CB summit so to help her out can we put all our ideas for new tailor tissues in this thread, then we can get a balance of what the tailors want and what we want to put forward.Thanks.
So all those people who keep talking about armor tissues, or are 'insulted' for whatever reason because we're just talking about tailor tissues, need to start their own thread focussing on ideas for armor tissues.How rude are my fellow BE's who, when asked by the Tailor Correspondent to help think of new tissues tailors can use, and who will push for these tissues during the Correspondent Summit, would rather hijack and discuss armor tissues which would, in all likelyhood, destroy the very profession trying to work with us for both of our own well being?If you can't keep on topic, maybe you shouldn't post, or you should start your own thread, but please stop being rude and insulting to a profession who is actually trying to work with us.
Who is being rude? I never said I supported tissues going into armor. I am the first one in this thread to being up making more types of clothing wearable with armor. Face it, any type of tissue that would actually be prefered over armor would be over powered. So we must find a way to allow the effects of BE tissue to be used while armor is being worn in order to increase our sales. We can add a thousand new tissue types and it won't matter if the only clothing a majority of the players are wearing is one shirt. I am simply stating that I am begining to feel rather insulted that tailors are pointing out how degrading it is to make sub-components for another crafting class in a thread about increasing the types of subcomponents BE's can make for another crafting class. If you can't see the irony in this, then I am sorry.
Sabbthiel
Fri Aug 06, 2004 11:26 am
#54
A comment on this insult to tailors and whatnot?
To not take insult when being told to be happy making components would either take a nonchalant person... or a BE. As BEs 90% of most BEs business is devoted to items we cannot ourselves use. Tailors already suffer greatly due to armorsmiths, an person wearing composite armor is reluctant to take off their clothes since it means needing a 10k doctor buff and brandy to put back on. To tell them to be happy with giving up their only technical advantage over armorsmiths is insulting. It would be comparable to asking all BEs to simply sell schematics.
Who besides dancers and non field doctors would buy their clothing for bonus if they could simply wear armor? They would be similar to ID before they were given stat alteration... fun to play with once in awhile but be lacking in any involvment with the games dynamics.
Meplorium
Fri Aug 06, 2004 11:30 am
#55
Having more clothing worn with armor would satisify my point. Just a personal pet peeve of mine though is seeing everyone run around in composite gets old. I can understand why, because it is the best armor out there, so it isn't the sea of people wearing composite that is the problem. The problem is the other armors aren't useful and allowing tissues into those lower level armors would get them a bit more use. The tailor alternitive to this problem is even worse where they would nerf all combat professions with bad armor to the point we see a sea of jedi robes. They must have lost their texture artist that did all the old clothes in the game, because the texturing on those jedi robes is bad. Even the chef aporon, not the jabba one, looks pretty bad with the texturing. I don't know what is exactly the best way to do this, but I do want those tissues to be more useful. I want to see that sea of composite go away but I don't want it replaced with jedi robes, which will probably happen even if armor doesn't get nerfed at all.
Making our tissues work like skill tapes is interesting. It certainly solves the 'over my dead body' closed mindedness that is just not helpful. I happen to like the tailor profession though would like to see them have more uses, so I don't want to see them removed from the loop. Which is why I am saying they could take the tissues and use them to make components for armor. It keeps them in the loop and part of the process especially if their experimentation matter when it came to those subcomponents. Having the best armor subcomponents on your server and highly sought after by all the armorsmiths is something to be very prideful of. I know having the best crafting stations on my server was a very neat thing. The 1000 OQ copper was easy enough to get, so the actual crafting station was not the key to being the best. It was the master artisan subcomponents that was key. Having the best electronics, ie subcomponents, was what made them so great. That was my finest accomplishment as a master artisan. Somaking subcomponents can be very rewarding, if one decides to look honestly at it with an open mind.
ArthurDentOnBria
Fri Aug 06, 2004 11:33 am
#56
Look, if this were about "what is best for BE" then it's clear what the answer is:
Tapes that are addable to armor and clothing, food additives that are addable to food, drink, spice, and even forageables by the customer. Mods that modify the most crucial things in the game like damage done, accuracy, speed, protection against damage, and the ability to sustain more damage. So yea, we could request all those things and essentially raise our middle fingers to all other classes and lose any shred of credability that we currently enjoy.
Oh, and then the other stuff like harvesters for meat, being able to train and wield our own pets, and being able to craft subcomponents for our pet stims as well as master docs can. And you know what? I've heard all of these suggestions here and they all make me sick to my stomach.
And or course, the other side of this is thatCH's want to "forage" pets as good as we can make, chefs want no part of BE additives and want to rely only on their experimentation prowess, smugglers and armorsmiths want a piece of the action, and tailors would certainly much rather craft skill tapes themselves rather than have to rely onBE's (yes, I've heard that suggestion there but nobody is currently pushing for it, most certainly N'Jessi is not). Have I missed anything? So we can all act like spoiled brats (or chefs, same difference) and scream "mine, mine mine", or we can try to be mature, reasonable adults, and focus on positive changes to the system without all the trash talk and all this other nonesense. That's what this summit is for, for gosh sakes, balance and trying to help the devs come up with something kick-butt that works for everyone. By starting this off on the wrong foot and an "every man for himself" attitude we guarantee ourselves of no positive changes occuring.
Message Edited by ArthurDentOnBria on 08-06-2004 11:38 AM
Meplorium
Fri Aug 06, 2004 11:55 am
#57
1of2alts wrote:
I think a lot of people need to re-read the start of this thread by NancyJ. Here it is:
N'Jessi is going to be pushing for new tailor tissues at the CB summit so to help her out can we put all our ideas for new tailor tissues in this thread, then we can get a balance of what the tailors want and what we want to put forward.Thanks.
So all those people who keep talking about armor tissues, or are 'insulted' for whatever reason because we're just talking about tailor tissues, need to start their own thread focussing on ideas for armor tissues.
How rude are my fellow BE's who, when asked by the Tailor Correspondent to help think of new tissues tailors can use, and who willpush for these tissuesduring the Correspondent Summit, would rather hijack and discuss armor tissues which would, in all likelyhood, destroy the very profession trying to work with us for both of our own well being?
If you can't keep on topic, maybe you shouldn't post, oryou should start your own thread, but please stop being rude and insulting to a profession who is actually trying to work with us.
The topic, since this is the BE forum, not the tailor one, are our BE tissues. Our correspondent can't go to the retreat and therefore needs someone to go in proxy for her. I wouldn't call this a tailor tissue thread, rather a BE tissue thread. The use of tailor tissue is todefind which tissue, since we have them for chefs too. Please don't feel thatthis is some kind of tailor issue simply because of thename.Tailor issues can be directed on the tailor forum.
The biggest issue facing our BE tissues right now is that only one, maybe two if the person decides to go without a back pack, not too likely, can be worn at a time while in combat, which is the focus of this retreat. The usefulness of our tissues and how to get new useful tissues is on topic. Simply adding in more tissues when our current tissues are under utilized isn't helpful. Getting both new tissues and getting ways to make those tissues more useful are on topic. Please do not tryto limit this discussion with close mindedness as some great ideas can come from exploring all possibilities. That can only be done with an open mind. Unfortunetly this thread was high jacked by the tailors lobbying against our tissues finding more usefulness.
JonMichael wrote:
Wow.
Now I can understand why there aren't too many tailors posting here on a subject which concerns probably the only money-making aspect of our profession.
I did not become a Tailor to be a supplier to Armorsmiths. I became a tailor because I enjoy crafting clothing.. both regular and bio enhanced. Since regular clothing does not yield a large profit margin, I rely on BE clothing for the bulk of my income and profit.
'JonMichael- Master Tailor/Master Image Designer
I am sorry, but your finances as a tailor isn't relivent to this topic. I can tell youfrom my experiences as anarchitect were one item is the same as any other, that the only way to make good money is to make something complicated, difficult, but make is very well. When your product is the same as the next guy, then the true value of that product becomes one of price, not quality. So if you really want to make money as a tailor, I would push to have difficult items to make that need full experimentation to be good. That is why I am saying these subcomponents should be experimented on by BEs as well as tailors as that would help the tailors out.
Gyopi
Fri Aug 06, 2004 11:56 am
#58
Seiryuu wrote:
A very good idea, Meplorium. Allowing tissues in the low-end armor is a great for balancing the types.
You do realize that if armor could be BE enhanced, except for occasionally a few items for doctors, no one would ever buy another piece of BE enhanced clothing again. It might help drum up BE business a little, but it would completely steal the only profitable items from tailors away and make it an almost compltely unviable profession.
Iseabeil
Fri Aug 06, 2004 1:04 pm
#59
i have 2 chars, one master tailor and some other stuff, the other working on BE and teras kasi, i dun know with other TK ppl, but i shudder at thought of wearing on armour on her. this type of combat style SHOULD wear clothes, with fighting enhancments on it, especially speed and dodge, as thats what lack of weight would accomplish. i dun think all templates should have clothing in combat, but some really should have it. i hope CB will make that possible. fighting stuff with clothes and the tissues that are today isnt too fun 
Seiryuu
Fri Aug 06, 2004 1:05 pm
#60
You do realize that if armor could be BE enhanced, except for occasionally a few items for doctors, no one would ever buy another piece of BE enhanced clothing again. It might help drum up BE business a little, but it would completely steal the only profitable items from tailors away and make it an almost compltely unviable profession.
Synth cloth does not go into armor, only fiber panels, correct? Taming, Entertaining and Healing tissues would still be purchased at the same rate they are now. New "social" tissues would still be in the domain of Tailors. Talking with a few tailors, Advanced Bio-Sensors are their biggest seller. This is not affected at all by Mel's suggestion.
Whether more clothes could be worn with armor or not, people will still buy that one shirt or bandolieer for combat tissues. This market is not lost.
The people that might be lost are those that value the skill modifiers over protection. I want an honest answer from a Tailor about what percentage of their tissue business falls into this category. Are you sure those people would actually switch? I would still rather use a set of maskscent pants than a pair of maskscent bone armor pants due to the encumbrance. Some customers might be lost, but it is not likely to be a huge number of people.
Anyone that wears armor frequently is not in the market for BE clothes. When suddenly they can wear armor with modifiers, tailors also gain a new group of people they can sell to, the Armosmiths. No it won't be as flashy or "rewarding" as selling clothes, but it is a new market, kind of like BEs and tissues versus pets. The potential gains are far more than any loses from the people above.
How many people out there hate waiting in line for buffs when you only want to play a little, it would be like your non-buff suit that lets you tackle some light harvesting if your a scout (so also meshes with + harvesting tissue) etc.
I am one of these people.
I have suggested something along this lines on occassion (even in this thread where the idea got one-starred despite being a suggestion to give the Tailors something). I don't expect it to be as good as armor, but I am not a combatant. I want enough protection to survive while I run away without strapping on some ugly and bulky armor.
...
I suppose I'm failing to see why an idea that gives three professions a boost is worse than an idea that really doesn't change much to our profession. From the BE's perspective, we will be selling the same amount of tissues because a piece of clothing won't be holding any more. Our market will be the same, only we will have more named resources to collect to make these new tissues.
So really the initial proposal benefits the Tailors (not surprising as it is their idea), while making us do more work with no gain. Adding combat tissues to armor creates a huge new market for us and Tailors. Adding some protective tissues to clothing could boost Tailors, us, and perhaps Armorsmiths were they to have a component that went into these.
Three professions get new markets and customers have more choices. Why was this bad again? What benefits do BE's get if only Tailors get new tissues?
Synth cloth does not go into armor, only fiber panels, correct? Taming, Entertaining and Healing tissues would still be purchased at the same rate they are now. New "social" tissues would still be in the domain of Tailors. Talking with a few tailors, Advanced Bio-Sensors are their biggest seller. This is not affected at all by Mel's suggestion.
Whether more clothes could be worn with armor or not, people will still buy that one shirt or bandolieer for combat tissues. This market is not lost.
The people that might be lost are those that value the skill modifiers over protection. I want an honest answer from a Tailor about what percentage of their tissue business falls into this category. Are you sure those people would actually switch? I would still rather use a set of maskscent pants than a pair of maskscent bone armor pants due to the encumbrance. Some customers might be lost, but it is not likely to be a huge number of people.
Anyone that wears armor frequently is not in the market for BE clothes. When suddenly they can wear armor with modifiers, tailors also gain a new group of people they can sell to, the Armosmiths. No it won't be as flashy or "rewarding" as selling clothes, but it is a new market, kind of like BEs and tissues versus pets. The potential gains are far more than any loses from the people above.
How many people out there hate waiting in line for buffs when you only want to play a little, it would be like your non-buff suit that lets you tackle some light harvesting if your a scout (so also meshes with + harvesting tissue) etc.
I am one of these people.
I have suggested something along this lines on occassion (even in this thread where the idea got one-starred despite being a suggestion to give the Tailors something). I don't expect it to be as good as armor, but I am not a combatant. I want enough protection to survive while I run away without strapping on some ugly and bulky armor.
...
I suppose I'm failing to see why an idea that gives three professions a boost is worse than an idea that really doesn't change much to our profession. From the BE's perspective, we will be selling the same amount of tissues because a piece of clothing won't be holding any more. Our market will be the same, only we will have more named resources to collect to make these new tissues.
So really the initial proposal benefits the Tailors (not surprising as it is their idea), while making us do more work with no gain. Adding combat tissues to armor creates a huge new market for us and Tailors. Adding some protective tissues to clothing could boost Tailors, us, and perhaps Armorsmiths were they to have a component that went into these.
Three professions get new markets and customers have more choices. Why was this bad again? What benefits do BE's get if only Tailors get new tissues?
Message Edited by Seiryuu on 08-06-2004 03:09 PM
annatova
Fri Aug 06, 2004 1:14 pm
#61
MAS here,
Armor uses both Syth and Reinforced and sometimes the regular fiberplast cloth
Composit uses both Synth and Reinforced FYI
Seiryuu
Fri Aug 06, 2004 1:25 pm
#62
Ah I see, thank you.
Well my suggestion would be to limit the armors that accept tissues to be the combat (fiber panel) ones, perhaps not all of those tissues even then. This is sticking with the idea of only the low-end armors being able to use them as well.
Well my suggestion would be to limit the armors that accept tissues to be the combat (fiber panel) ones, perhaps not all of those tissues even then. This is sticking with the idea of only the low-end armors being able to use them as well.
1of2alts
Fri Aug 06, 2004 1:25 pm
#63
Seiryuu wrote:
Three professions get new markets and customers have more choices. Why was this bad again? What benefits do BE's get if only Tailors get new tissues?
Message Edited by Seiryuu on 08-06-2004 03:09 PM
That's not the point or even the question. The point is Tailors have asked to work with us to create more tailor tissues for their clothes. Why can't we stay on topic instead of discussing topics in this thread which might actually hurt the profession who's trying to work with us?
Armor tissues, while a fine topic for BE's to discuss, should be done seperately from this thread.
Suenr
Fri Aug 06, 2004 1:33 pm
#64
1of2alts wrote:
Seiryuu wrote:
Three professions get new markets and customers have more choices. Why was this bad again? What benefits do BE's get if only Tailors get new tissues?Message Edited by Seiryuu on 08-06-2004 03:09 PM
That's not the point or even the question. The point is Tailors have asked to work with us to create more tailor tissues for their clothes. Why can't we stay on topic instead of discussing topics in this thread which might actually hurt the profession who's trying to work with us?Armor tissues, while a fine topic for BE's to discuss, should be done seperately from this thread.
What difference will more tissues make if no one will wear them? Unless there is a way for more tissues to be used while wearing armor (either by making more clothing wearable with armor which is what I prefer, or by making certain armors take tissues), then I would prefer that NO new tissues are added. New tissues just mean more special resources to keep on hand and a reduced demand for what tissues we do make.
I think the demand for Biowear would increase more by adding pants and socks that you can wear with armor, belts and backpacks that take tissues, and biojewlery and bioeyewear than can be worn with armor than it will by adding more tissue types to put in that single shirt.
Sabbthiel
Fri Aug 06, 2004 1:47 pm
#65
I dont really think that logic follows... more tissue types could very well help BE clothing a great deal. As of right now there are only two useful tissues for combat, melee/stun and bleed resistance which untill just now was broken i believe. More and varied combat tissues would be really helpful even if you can only wear a shirt and bandolier, which by the way allows for a max of 2 combats or 1 combat and 2 non combat mods. Aside from the limitations due to armor, new tissues for non combat or combat related items would be very useful. There are plenty of interesting new tissues that could help, and I say the more specific the better. Who here hasnt thanked their lucky mask scentsuit while crawling aroundand trying to shove a needle in a rancors butt?I am sure gladI had scent neutralizers... bothfor the sake of my concealment andmy own nose.
Harvest, crafting, or buff enhancing tissues would greatly help those who dont need a full suit of armor. I dont think it is fair to say that new tissues could any damage to the existing BE clothingeconomy.