Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: Had yet another Chef telling me that 25K is 'a fair price' for crated BSNs...
Okin_Sin
Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:12 am
#66
ArthurDent wrote "So why is it that chefs complain so bitterly about 30k-40k per crate and demand free schematics rather than paying that price, when that's still barely half what you say those ingredients are worth in a chef schematic that is so "reasonably priced"? That's what I'd like to know. Isn't what's good for the goose, good for the gander?"
To answer your question, I don't think the ingredients are worth the same in a BE schemaitc as a Chef schematic. Hereare a couplequestion for you ...
As a BE how many 10's of millions of credits have you spent on skilltapes?
To make BSNs how often do you go through 25+ attempts to make the schematic for the factory run eating the cost of the ingredients?
How many previous factory runs do you need to make subcomponents for these BSNs?
How many lines in the BSN do you have to experiment on with only limited points to be distributed?
The truth is that BSN require only a master BE and resources, being a good chef requires skilltapes, practice, many attempts at making the schematic to get that best product, 4 lines to distribute points through, and more stats on the resources that effect our final product.
I agree BE's should make more profit on these then they do, but you don't have 20+ million in skilltape cost to recover, you don't lose tons of resources for every schematic etc ... they are just not the same thing.
Joilhath
Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:41 am
#67
Okin_Sin wrote:
ArthurDent wrote "So why is it that chefs complain so bitterly about 30k-40k per crate and demand free schematics rather than paying that price, when that's still barely half what you say those ingredients are worth in a chef schematic that is so "reasonably priced"? That's what I'd like to know. Isn't what's good for the goose, good for the gander?"
To answer your question, I don't think the ingredients are worth the same in a BE schemaitc as a Chef schematic. Hereare a couplequestion for you ...
As a BE how many 10's of millions of credits have you spent on skilltapes?
To make BSNs how often do you go through 25+ attempts to make the schematic for the factory run eating the cost of the ingredients?
How many previous factory runs do you need to make subcomponents for these BSNs?
How many lines in the BSN do you have to experiment on with only limited points to be distributed?
The truth is that BSN require only a master BE and resources, being a good chef requires skilltapes, practice, many attempts at making the schematic to get that best product, 4 lines to distribute points through, and more stats on the resources that effect our final product.
I agree BE's should make more profit on these then they do, but you don't have 20+ million in skilltape cost to recover, you don't lose tons of resources for every schematic etc ... they are just not the same thing.
Just have to say that I would be willing to say only 10% if that of chefs have spent any on skill tapes. Granted to make the best final product you have to be a 12 point chef but there really aren't that many of them.
Albion_DeCrappa
Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:53 am
#68
the problem is that most Chefs are getting a majority of their tissues from a Guild/City mate. I know I sell my addative tissues to a Chef in my City for 50% fo my normal price. But I am also not able to supply her with tissues on the drop of a hat (the meat situation is another story altogether) so she probably goes to another BE when I am out. Now I can speak for this chef in particular but I could see what a chef who is usually supplied by a guildmate may complain about prices. Sure he may get MNS for 10k and BSNs for 15k / crate but those are most likely from a guild friend. And for those of you who don't think I should sell to guild mates that cheap, ask yourself how much you paid for that suit of armor or T-21 you got from a guild mate.
Idon't go into the gas station with my bottle of Coke and start arguing with the cashier, saying I could get that same bottle of Coke for 20 cents cheaper at the gas station across the street. I'd get laughed out of the store.
Yeah, but I bet you complain about the price of Gas. "$2/gallon? What a rip off!"
Message Edited by Albion_DeCrappa on 07-13-2004 07:55 AM
Meplorium
Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:30 am
#69
Just about anyone that gets serious about being a chef gets those skill tapes. The demand for them far out weighs the supply, which is why they cost so much. So most chefs don't have them. If they don't, thenthey are saving up for them, so they need a good profit. I had to make some money as a chef before I could buy my skill tapes and even had to borrow a bit.
Most of my food is sold to city citizens in one of my two locations. I get some out of town traffic buying stuff, but I serve mostly people I know in city. The spaming chefs in Cnet sell their goods to strangers at a higher price. They are pretty damn rude self servering people, hence all the spam at other peoples expense, and they would be very demanding about getting their additives next to nothing. I hope most would have these individuals already on the /ignore and don't buy their products.
Bivoli is a bad example to use for food. It has the special case of being Doc food. Docs make a lot of money using the stuff, more so than your normal mission doer, so the price on good bivoli is higher than most other food. Resource cpu cost doesn't play well into that. The value of a product isn't what goes into it, but what the product can do. This is why most foods and drinks are not made and purchased. Their cost to make doesn't justify their effect. Other foods have great effect and go for a higher price than some mid line, somewhat in demand type food like synsteak.
ArthurDentOnBria
Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:39 am
#70
Okin,
I think you summarized very well why I can't stand (some) chefs. This blatent "we're better than you" attitude really sickens me. Surely you don't really believe that the chef experimentation system taxes your brain power. Say it isn't so, lol. I dunno, personally I don't find it a challenge, but maybe you do /shrug.
Also, you talk about lost resources. No. When you're pulling in several hundred k of resources per shift, and making runs of 40 crates, you can't seriously believe that 5 "re-do's" have any impact at all in yourcash flow.
Also, you talk about the expenditure of 10 million (or 10's of millions) or credits for skill tapes. Fine, you know what though, I'd trade that in a second for the 29 extra skill points that we have to spend to master our class. Take 10 million out of my account and give me back the skill points. Heck, take 20 million. That would be a terrific trade. And don't think for a second that BE's don't have unique challenges as well (it's funny how sometimes you claim you are this "objective" chef/BE, but at other times you refer to us as "them" and seemingly have no concept of the challenges that we face, not saying you don't have the title but...). For example, because we have so many facets, we have tremendous problems with storage. I personally have 6 houses, 2 banks, and 5 factories, and 8 droids, allfilled to the brim with materials. That's a lotta maintenence to pay, and I get hit with that every day, that's not a one-time expense like a skill tape.
Message Edited by ArthurDentOnBria on 07-13-2004 10:44 AM
Cliffy
Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:39 pm
#71
actually ArthurDent I agree 100% with paying 10 mill in a second to get my extra skill points & make that 44 skill points if you want to be able to have a vendor to sell goods since we need to add novice artisan
A lot of ppl are assuming that BE is meant to be a money-making profession. IT'S NOT! Thats why it is not in the Artisan line at all. I know, I know, Docs can make a lot of money selling buffs but lets take a look at the major difference. We have a limited pool of customers to sell to compared to ANY other "money-making" profession. Almost exclusively chefs, tailors, & CH with the exception of non-ch pets. There are the exception of MBE who make good money selling but "through the relationships they have with ppl of these prof". Guys if you are in it for the money, move along. This is a prof you play because you love & why I do it. I make my money other ways.
A lot of ppl are assuming that BE is meant to be a money-making profession. IT'S NOT! Thats why it is not in the Artisan line at all. I know, I know, Docs can make a lot of money selling buffs but lets take a look at the major difference. We have a limited pool of customers to sell to compared to ANY other "money-making" profession. Almost exclusively chefs, tailors, & CH with the exception of non-ch pets. There are the exception of MBE who make good money selling but "through the relationships they have with ppl of these prof". Guys if you are in it for the money, move along. This is a prof you play because you love & why I do it. I make my money other ways.
Okin_Sin
Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:51 pm
#72
ArthurDent I will try to address some of the things you brought up, I must not have been clear enough.
10 million for the skilltapes, I wish lol. Just today on bria a +11 Food Experimentation tape sold for 25 million credits alone, that was on the boards for less then a day before being bought out for 25 million.
As for losing the ingredients, if it was the way you stated no it wouldn't matter, but its a lot more then that. For me personally I craft to make the best things I can. This usually means I experiment every schematic 15-25 times and take the best result. Many times this schematic only makes 10 or so crates after it is all said and done. That actually does start to add up.
Im not saying that Chef experimentation is "better" then BE, just in my example much more difficult. It is a lot harder to balance out the 4 lines of chef and find resouces where all the stats matter, then BSNs where only OQ/FL/PE matter. On BSNs you only have one line to experiment that any master always maxes. With my foods many times I dont' get the food I want to sell untill I get amazing succeses, this is never the case with a BSN.
10 million for the skilltapes, I wish lol. Just today on bria a +11 Food Experimentation tape sold for 25 million credits alone, that was on the boards for less then a day before being bought out for 25 million.
As for losing the ingredients, if it was the way you stated no it wouldn't matter, but its a lot more then that. For me personally I craft to make the best things I can. This usually means I experiment every schematic 15-25 times and take the best result. Many times this schematic only makes 10 or so crates after it is all said and done. That actually does start to add up.
Im not saying that Chef experimentation is "better" then BE, just in my example much more difficult. It is a lot harder to balance out the 4 lines of chef and find resouces where all the stats matter, then BSNs where only OQ/FL/PE matter. On BSNs you only have one line to experiment that any master always maxes. With my foods many times I dont' get the food I want to sell untill I get amazing succeses, this is never the case with a BSN.
Okin_Sin
Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:54 pm
#73
LOL cliffy I just noticed your sig about the wookie armor that is great lol
Dsabre
Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:18 pm
#74
Okin_Sin wrote:
ArthurDent I will try to address some of the things you brought up, I must not have been clear enough.
10 million for the skilltapes, I wish lol. Just today on bria a +11 Food Experimentation tape sold for 25 million credits alone, that was on the boards for less then a day before being bought out for 25 million.
As for losing the ingredients, if it was the way you stated no it wouldn't matter, but its a lot more then that. For me personally I craft to make the best things I can. This usually means I experiment every schematic 15-25 times and take the best result. Many times this schematic only makes 10 or so crates after it is all said and done. That actually does start to add up.
Im not saying that Chef experimentation is "better" then BE, just in my example much more difficult. It is a lot harder to balance out the 4 lines of chef and find resouces where all the stats matter, then BSNs where only OQ/FL/PE matter. On BSNs you only have one line to experiment that any master always maxes. With my foods many times I dont' get the food I want to sell untill I get amazing succeses, this is never the case with a BSN.
Okin_Sin...you are also missing the main point that nearly every BE post has been getting at...toss all the profit talk out the window...its not hard to make a ton of credits if thats what you're after...it really isn't...there are people who can make 10 mil with a new character on a new server with no help in a week....and after that...well maybe 15-20 mil a week if they were just after credits.
the point that they are arguing is why chefs begrudge BE's the little profit they do make when chefs could still make a good profit even paying 25k/40k/50k.
they also don't like being told what they should charge, I don't think ANY crafter likes being told that..what if a rifleman came up to you and demanded you sell him ahrisa for 40k a crate, or brandy for 70k cause his PA buddy sold him some for that much. haggling is different, but still after a while of that it does get annoying.
being treated like a schematic machine is also not any fun at all...if all you want is a schematic machine join a PA or pay for an alt account (this also helps with storage).
BE's don't have much of a challenge experimenting on tissues...no questions there. but resources can be just as hard to find to make top tier additives...88's are exponentially harder to make than 85's or 86's.
skill tapes are expensive...the big ones go for 2 mil a point...but then again theres the +5 from a crafter's apron...and that'll cost you...200k...maybe...probably not even that....you can use 5 +1's for 100k each and quickly get to 11 points...and for what...under 1 mil credits...
try comparing grind costs...BE's need meat...lots and lots of meat, they also need to pick up the exploration line of scout. chef needs...flora, lots and lots of flora. chefs may be more expensive to get to 12 points...but BE's are more costly to get to 10 points.
oh yeah, and on another note...I do believe ahrisa has outpaced brandy in terms of raw sales numbers on a lot of servers by now.
JohnnieFed
Wed Jul 14, 2004 4:47 am
#75
Ok .. I've read all these posts on this thread.. I came here to see if Me being Master Chef already .. should I become a MBE? I am on the Chilastra Server and it's hard as heck to find a MBE to help me with my additives. I agree with all that has been said here in that the MBE's are looking for a profit same as the Chef's, and a little respect as well. Being on the Chef Side, Paying a Million or so on Additives for one factory run of a product shows me no profit for me as a chef.
On the other hand.. the MBE's .. with all their hard work, deserve a profit as well. SO when I had a MBE helping me, I had all the resources for an additive run on my factory .. I gladly paid him his asking price for the Schematic. He did not have to supply resources or make much of an effort to make the schematic. I paid 50-75k for each Schematic. I do not understand why other BE's do not do that as well. I see it as a fair trade. I paid for all the resources.. the meat the other organics, He did not have to supply those at all.
As A BE .. and I'm novice atm .. That's what I plan to do for the Chef's on my server .. if they can supply me with the resources for their own factory runs I'll gladly Make them a schematic. BE's have a very small customer base as far as tissues and these other componenents, Tailors and Chefs. WHY anger one of your clientell by not being willing to compromise ? When you are making Pets and other pet things that people LOVE to have and focus only on the one thing .. the tissues.
NOW I may change my tune as I get farther and farther into BE .. I won't argue that 
but really.. Any profession you pick up you need to learn what works for you when you are doing it. To say Chef's are greedy.. yes possibly some are, but you cant' lump all the Chefs into one big pile like that
but really.. Any profession you pick up you need to learn what works for you when you are doing it. To say Chef's are greedy.. yes possibly some are, but you cant' lump all the Chefs into one big pile like that I am Thankful for the few MBE's that I've run into for their willingness to work with me.. a starving CHEF. I plan to be the kind of MBE that the Chef's who do not have help from one, will want to come to. Thank you for this Thread you guys .. !!
Oh .. btw.. Hi Cliffy good to see someone from Chilastra here
good to see someone from Chilastra here Emo Theory Master CHEF/Novice BE
Johnnie Fed Master Fencer/and many other things
CHILASTRA FIDE MEA, Corellia
NancyJ
Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:03 am
#76
It all depends on your point of view.
From my perspective, I dont have the time or cash flow to buy meat, nor the combat skills to to harvest my own, I'm not in a guild so theres no way I can do tissue runs.
So to me its much easier and simpler to make a schematic for any chef who asks but I have to think about the bigger picture.
I'm not the only BE on Farstar, There are other BE's who do have the resources to make additives, by making schematics for chefs, I would be taking business away from the people whose business it is to make chef additives.
I might do the odd schematic for a friend in a jam if their regular supplier cant help them out but I dont make a habit of it.
From my perspective, I dont have the time or cash flow to buy meat, nor the combat skills to to harvest my own, I'm not in a guild so theres no way I can do tissue runs.
So to me its much easier and simpler to make a schematic for any chef who asks but I have to think about the bigger picture.
I'm not the only BE on Farstar, There are other BE's who do have the resources to make additives, by making schematics for chefs, I would be taking business away from the people whose business it is to make chef additives.
I might do the odd schematic for a friend in a jam if their regular supplier cant help them out but I dont make a habit of it.
Hockerbrecht
Wed Jul 14, 2004 8:20 am
#77
Who is to say what is right and what is wrong, it is a simple case of supply and demand.
If a BE prices very low they will get sold out more than likely very quickly. If they price too high they wont sell
probably very much, However if every BE priced the same then what choice would you have.
In my experience i would rather supply 2-3 regular repeat buyers where we come to an agreement on a fixed price,
than stock a vendor, as i cant afford to take Merchant points to get the planet adverrtising, into my build.
This I found to work well, but it is the same as chefs pricing, as a Master BE I really dont care what my customers
charge for their goods, they can make 50x profit for all I care. All i care is that the "partnership" is healthy and i realise profit that I am happy with.
I want to make money, yes, but at the same time I dont expect to make it overnight.
However knowing how my regular customers sell, i can also plan my factory loads accordingly (most times ).
).Heck to some of my customers I even deliver at no extra cost. To me its a business, Customer service/friendliness/Helpfullness should be the same in a game as it should be in real life if you want to run succesful.
Lozareth was a good example here, great tissues at unbelieveable prices, but the customer came to him....What that did was drive the prices down,
I would expect that until the next person comes along to do the same, then prices will level out across Bria.
What seems to be happening though is there are more and more chefs coming on board now, in proportion not many new dedicated BE's. So in effect more chefs chasing the same tissues, so will be intresting to see what happens on Bria with regard to price levels. Whatever happens, unless meat prices go through the roof, or my chef customers demand they pay more, my regular customers will be paying the same price next week as they are today.
Message Edited by Hockerbrecht on 07-14-2004 04:22 PM
Distaste
Wed Jul 14, 2004 8:34 am
#78
Well being a new chef on flurry, i gladly pay 45k for good 85+ BSN mediums. Everyones out for profit, im making mine why not let the BE make his/her. Ive yet to find a really good BE that provides me on a regular basis.