Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: Getting to know you and your profession!
Xyrdre
Wed Oct 13, 2004 5:46 am
#651
Tiggs wrote:
Since I am the new kid on the block I would like to take a little survey to see what you feel is the most pressing issue with your profession right now. Wait! Don't post just yet, seriously think about this for a moment and post what "you" feel is important, not what you think the overall class feels is important.
(( Note: This, my latest essay, has been the most difficult to write of any work I've yet contributed to these forums. The process of digging up my response has touched on some, to me,very frustrating aspects of SWG, though I have tried my best to remain as constructive as possible, and minimally critical. Also, I think that far too many of the underlying issues andconcerns are interlaced, which has made structuring these writings most difficult. I apologize in advance ifthere is a less-structured flowtothe contents below. I'm also certain that there are 50 more things that could have been addressed herein; I can only imagine the length of this post had I exhausted my thoughts on this subject. Consider that my warning to the reader of shorter attention span. 
I have largely been quiet on these forums of late, due in the most part to my growing frustration with the state of the game for entertainer players. I have needed to do a lot of soul-searching to collect my thoughts, a process which continues, but thought this thread too important to pass over. ))
Preamble
I have thought long about this question. I've considered so many different approaches and angles on thisthat the possible answers have become a tangled weave of impressions of what could truly take the number one position of "most pressing issue with our profession right now". I've read all of the posts in this threadthusfar, and then I've thought some more.
The previous posters have done a fairly extensive job of outlining many of the issues and problems that Dancers have faced for... well, in some cases forever, and in other cases almost forever. Still, I cannot help but look deeper. No one of those issues can I label as "number one most pressing" - in many ways, so many of those are equal. And my thinking on this subject has led me to conclude that there is a reason for that equality of priority... they are all symptoms, and not causes.
Fix any one of the aforementioned 'issues', and the Dancer (and really, any of the so-called 'social') professions are still in pretty dire shape. No, as I see it there is a higher commonality, if not several, that lead to all of the symptomatic issues that we've been discussing here thusfar. And if I'm asked to cast my vote in directing attentions to one single issue to resurrect gameplay for the Dancer profession, I'll be damned if I'm not going to do my best to get to the root of the problem; thecause of the disease.
Deila's Number One DancerIssue Stated
I believe that the common source, our number one issue for not only the Dancer profession, but the social professions as a whole, can come down to this:
Our "exciting new professions in MMO gaming" [paraphrased] were never completed in design and have not been supported in development to sufficiently warrant sustainingthe inclusion of a "social"playstyle,and are thusunable to stand as viable and playable roles in SWG to the satisfaction of the majority of theplayers that the professions have attracted.
To quote a recent-ish film, "Everyone's thinking it, I'm just saying it."
I do not state this as irrefutable fact, as I was not present during the initial planning stages, nor any of the other development sessions that have occured since the beginnings of the idea of Star Wars Galaxies as a game. Nor do I state this as an attack on the development team in any way. I state this based on myobservations and careful deductions (I hope ) of my impressions ofhow SWG game development has progressed thusfar, the apparent direction of development as made public at this time, the state of the entertainer professions as they stand today - and of where they have come from in the past.
) of my impressions ofhow SWG game development has progressed thusfar, the apparent direction of development as made public at this time, the state of the entertainer professions as they stand today - and of where they have come from in the past.The Rationale
Crossover into Someone Else's Game, But No Game For Us To Play
Whereassteps were takentowards integration of these new profession concepts with the pre-existing model of the combat mission/quest format and the PvP arena style of gameplay through the game mechanics relegated to Dancers and Musicians - BF and Mind Wound healing, and later Mind buffing- concepts of actual gameplay for the social professions appear to have stopped with Entertainer Mission Terminals, of which much has already been written and well-documented.
If one considers game integration solely fromthe more classiccombat game standpoint, then the task is complete. The "elder" gameplay styles now have need to seek out these new"social" player characters, and the twain shall meet. But, are a couple of points ofintegration with someone else'sgameplay-funenough to consider a new playstyle as supported or included? Many, perhaps even most, of the players of these professions do not think so.
But, if we're wrong in our approach and desire to have true gameplay options available to us that fits our preferred playstyle... if these professions were never meant to be anything more than basic support for combat players, we have been kept soundly in the dark on the matter. On the one hand, even with most of our dances broken (base dance issues and incomplete flourish counts) andfewer performance commands than musicians, we are told that we are "working as intended". On the other hand, the only things we do have that really could be considered as working reliablyis BF/Mind Wound healing - yet we are told that we are not considered a healing class, which is why none of our professional skills have any bearing on any ofthe Force Sensitive quests for example.
Incomplete/Non-Existent Gameplay Content
Essentially, I feel that there is not enough gameplay value for the social playstyle playerbuilt in to SWG to support a bold new step in MMO gaming, the inclusion of the 'social' professions within the more traditional combat frameworks. Nor have the few ties that we do have to the rest of the game been protected and reserved for active players. Much, if not arguably all,of the gameplay value, as well as the viability of the profession itself (via real income opportunities as well as respect and perceived value of the profession) have been left to the "goodwill" andgeneral maturity and benevolenceof the playerbase at large- commodities which have proven to be the rarest of treasures in the environment which has been allowed to flourish. Or, put another way, reliance on player generosity and good-behavior has simply not worked out the way things have progressed.
I am aware of the Hutt Casino (Publish 9) and the Entertainer Quests (Publish 10, then 10.2) - neither of which have come to pass. Perhaps a great deal of thought and design and care have gone into these features. It seems we will not know for some time, as they are continually pushed back, then silence surrounds their very existence. Hutt Casino... first we were told it was the focus of Publish 9. Then we were told after the Jedi Revamp. Then we were told after the Jedi Revamp and the Combat Balance. Then we were told after the Jedi Revamp, Combat Balance, and JTL. Then after Jedi, JTL, Combat Revamp, GCW Revamp, Smuggler Revamp... I'm sure we have not heard the end of the list that is still to come. Unless we have simply heard the last of the Hutt Casino - there certainly has been no publicmention of it for quite some time now.
And the fact remains - we have no gameplay content for the "exciting new professions in MMO gaming". Rather, these "exciting new professions" are told to drop them, and respec if we would like to participate in the game content. Hmm... curiouser and curiouser... and none-too encouraging.
106 Skill Points Has NoDirect GameValue to the Player Spending Them
There are no viable game reasons to actually use what performance dances/effects we do have. No skillful and aesthetically pleasing combinations of dances, flourishes and effects, props, coordinated bands or dance troupes will ever get that Mission Terminal to spit out more than 100 - 200 credits.Not one Faction Point can be earned. Not one Fame Point, not one interesting item of house decor, not one repulsorlift Limousine, not one adoring NPC fan in a static city clapping as we walk by. Everything that is in the game as a reward for an Entertainer of any kind can be had equally by unskilled or sloppyuse of our professional tools. Every game reward can be had by a character whose player has never actively played that character, short of pushing the StartMacro button once in the morning.
Something just strikes me as incomplete professionstructure in all of this.
Mastery of a combat profession, and skillful use of the specials that come along with it, allow the player to take on bigger and badder missions for higher rewards. It allows the player to join a well-organized and coordinated group to take on bigger and badder still content (such as the DWB). Sloppy use of specials and abilities will curb the rewards available to a shoddy player. Conversely, there is no benefit to a skillful Master Dancer. 8 Master Dancers performing a flawless coordinated dance as a troupe for a mission will result in the reward of... 100 - 200 credits being split 8 ways instead of 1. A Master Dancer who has no idea how to combine flourishes, use effects, mix dances, etc., will still heal BF and Mind Wounds just as quickly as a highly skilled player. Mechanically speaking, a Novice Entertainer can get the same job done that a Master can. It just takes a bit longer.
The only direct benefit from profession Mastery comes in the form of higher buffing amounts. Buffs, which we cannot administer to ourselves, but only benefits other players, who seem to feel that our sole existence is to provide them their Right, on call and on demand, wherever and whenever they happen to be playing. Though, we've already discussed the structure of sole reliance on maturity and goodwill of the general playerbase, on the whole. /meow /fffft.
Known Threats to the Validity and Health of the Social Playstyle Have Been Allowed to Thrive
I won't go into great detail here - there isa much-documented history of the growing damage of AFK, buffbots, reliance on generosity/maturity/goodwill of the playerbase in taking part in the player-driven economy. This forum alone can likely provide over a year's time of posts that should illustrate the cumulative effects of all these things and more. All of the signs pointing to the ruining of the social professions were recognized early on, and by successive generations of entertainer players. The state we are currently in is the product of allowing multiple cancers to run rampant, untreated, though the symptoms have been detected and recognized for a very long time.
Conclusions
When I started out in SWG, I was immediately drawn to the Dancer profession. It was something that held such promise, something amazing and new, and seemed to break the mold of what gaming had been like for me in the past. I had dreams of being able to dance my way to fame and fortune, and stardom... well, at least something more than being fed to a rancor. It seemed like a nice side-benefit that through our dance we could soothe the battle-weary, and that for our performance we would be tipped out of the admiration and gratitude of our fans. Here was an "exciting new profession in MMO gaming", and I was ready to tear in and live in the Star Wars universe pursuing the heights of stage and screen.
Were my expectations too high? Should I ever have considered that there could have been that level of gameplay available in a (shall we call it) non-traditional avenue? I still don't know for certain - as far as I know, we've never received any answer to the questions posed pertaining to our intended game roles, and where that is supposed to be. It looks as though those expectations were, and are, still too high, as all known scheduled development seems aimed squarely at more PvP. There currently seem to be no plans to spend any much-needed time on the core problems facing another entire playstyle that have always been present. Maybe there never was an intention to include the social playstyle. Maybe at one time there was, but those daysseem long forgotten.
Our "exciting new professions in MMO gaming" [paraphrased] were never completed in design and have not been supported in development to sufficiently warrant sustainingthe inclusion of a "social"playstyle,and are thusunable to stand as viable and playable roles in SWG to the satisfaction of the majority of theplayers that the professions have attracted.
Dangerous words, I know, as theyheavily implythat the "Grand Experiment" (as we've come to call it here in the forums) of including the social playstyle in SWG has failed. I am of the opinion that the time has long passed that simple issue fixes, as have been well documented in this thread and others over time, can remedy the troubles plaguing the socialprofessions. It is my sound opinion, as a Dancer/Entertainer player, as a forum contributor, and as a former professional game designer/developer, that the only way to sustain the inclusion of the social playstyle in SWG is to provide valid and viable gameplay for these professions within the chosen playstyle. Being minor support for a combat "elder" game will not ever hold gameplay satisfaction for meon its own.
Can these serious problems be remedied? I honestly do not know... the disease has progressed to an extremely advanced state, in my estimation. Without immediate, significant, and ongoing care, I don't foresee any meaningful change occuring. I for one share the laments so often echoed here in the Dancer forum, "So much potential... such a waste."
At the end of the day, I do know this. An idea without a champion will wither and die. Without someone on the development team, and someonewith sufficient power to be heard and heeded, who is actively seeing to the welfare of the social playstyle and its associated professions, the idea of including any "exciting new professions in MMO gaming" will continue to be overlooked and allowed to sink the rest of the wayinto oblivion, following the path that has been firmly established.I do not see a"magic bullet" that can fix this situation - no simple tweak that will make everything right and good again. The very nature of how these professions are not only integrated, but truly included, in SWG gameplay must be reevaluated, I believe. The current 'flight plan', if you will, heads straight into the mountainside.
Petronela
Wed Oct 13, 2004 6:02 am
#652
Tiggs,
I would like to add few things if I may.
I’m not sure how long you have actually played the game yourself, but I still remember fondly the “good old days”.
In those days communities actually worked together, we used to group to accomplish things and the outcome was determined by actual skill of the players and their ability to work as a collective.
These days (unless a base is under an attack) it’s more like a single-shooter elimination game.
I want those days back, days where MP actually meant multi player.
Many times we would hit the nearest cantina to heal and if there was no dancer inside one of us would run out and train Novice Entertainer, heal the group and just drop the skill or keep it… depending on a situation.
Lol by keeping the skill after learning and surrendering few times is actually how I became dancer and now after all this time I can’t imagine being any other class.
So you see, I do not believe when people say AFK dancers is the only way to be able to effective play the game for combat types.
I know better, I have seen it in the past.
I believe the people who say that, are a bit paranoid and scared to break a pattern they were brainwashed in to by the AFK pollution.
Multi player game should be just that.
People working together.
And I actually believe if people were encouraged to work together many of the other classes’ problems would also be eliminated. Not all, but many.
I do have to agree with those who stated that waiting for after JTL to address the AFK issues may be too late. You will have a new infusion of players immediately brainwashed in to believing all support classes are here only to serve their needs and are of no real importance as players. “Use them and ignore them, there’s plenty to go around” mentality.
I do understand you guys are very busy atm but how about stepping up to the place and making an official statement outlining in details at which point AFK is an abuse. I’m sure typing it up wont take too long. 10 minutes? And a memo to your in game CSR about how to enforce the policy? Another 15 minutes?
Sure it’s not a fix, but it will give us a way to fight for our survivor while we wait for the actual fix to take place.
Scenario:
A player reports a suspected AFK abuser.
CSR arrives to investigate.
After an observation of suspected AFK abuser he/she sends him/her a /tell.
If after few /tells going without a response over given time period to make sure it is not a legitimate AFK, the AFK abuser gets booted out of the game with a warning.
I’m willing to bet, you do it few times and the world will spread like wild fire and many AFK-zombies will think twice if it is actually worth the effort to set up a shop.
I’m not trying to be negative here, I do believe there is still hope.
Deli’ah
I would like to add few things if I may.
I’m not sure how long you have actually played the game yourself, but I still remember fondly the “good old days”.
In those days communities actually worked together, we used to group to accomplish things and the outcome was determined by actual skill of the players and their ability to work as a collective.
These days (unless a base is under an attack) it’s more like a single-shooter elimination game.
I want those days back, days where MP actually meant multi player.
Many times we would hit the nearest cantina to heal and if there was no dancer inside one of us would run out and train Novice Entertainer, heal the group and just drop the skill or keep it… depending on a situation.
Lol by keeping the skill after learning and surrendering few times is actually how I became dancer and now after all this time I can’t imagine being any other class.
So you see, I do not believe when people say AFK dancers is the only way to be able to effective play the game for combat types.
I know better, I have seen it in the past.
I believe the people who say that, are a bit paranoid and scared to break a pattern they were brainwashed in to by the AFK pollution.
Multi player game should be just that.
People working together.
And I actually believe if people were encouraged to work together many of the other classes’ problems would also be eliminated. Not all, but many.
I do have to agree with those who stated that waiting for after JTL to address the AFK issues may be too late. You will have a new infusion of players immediately brainwashed in to believing all support classes are here only to serve their needs and are of no real importance as players. “Use them and ignore them, there’s plenty to go around” mentality.
I do understand you guys are very busy atm but how about stepping up to the place and making an official statement outlining in details at which point AFK is an abuse. I’m sure typing it up wont take too long. 10 minutes? And a memo to your in game CSR about how to enforce the policy? Another 15 minutes?
Sure it’s not a fix, but it will give us a way to fight for our survivor while we wait for the actual fix to take place.
Scenario:
A player reports a suspected AFK abuser.
CSR arrives to investigate.
After an observation of suspected AFK abuser he/she sends him/her a /tell.
If after few /tells going without a response over given time period to make sure it is not a legitimate AFK, the AFK abuser gets booted out of the game with a warning.
I’m willing to bet, you do it few times and the world will spread like wild fire and many AFK-zombies will think twice if it is actually worth the effort to set up a shop.
I’m not trying to be negative here, I do believe there is still hope.
Deli’ah
dpuWookiee
Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:33 am
#653
- A quick and easy fix, in my opinion, would be to remove the HAR tree completely and make it a tree for the launcher pistol. It does not make any sense to have a Commando specific weapon and no specials for it.
- We need a non-consumableweapon that has Armor Piercing. If we receive specials for the launcher pistol, give AP to that, or give it to the Flamethrower.
- Grenades are for the most part useless. The blast radius is typically inside the radius of the ideal range and the accuracy is very poor. I would like to see the capability to throw a grenade with the same accuracy and distance that a Combat Medic has. I think it would also be beneficial if grenades had state effect changes associated with them... One would be knockdown, another blind, another stun, etc...
GerRob
Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:35 am
#654
Hi,
well... after seeing this post in some other boards now (Squad Leader,
Creature Handler, did not bother to check other downtrodden professions)
and after realising that the promised solution to the most disturbing game
"features" is not only not done yet... not even planned yet... but even
not decided on...
And after realising that
a) I did not want to play for a month now, and that when I joined the game,
I rapidly left the game due to disgust for notorious AFK'lers
b) I do not plan to join a "twitch based space combat game", so
why should I pay the development of this... all devs are doing JTL
now... and after Launch SWG "maybe" gets support again
c) I did not want to be Jedi in this game.. but all gameplay revolves around
being one more and more from day to day.
I am tired of getting put on hold. Tired of seeing the non communication
with the playertype I choose to be.
Bye SW:G.
regards
well... after seeing this post in some other boards now (Squad Leader,
Creature Handler, did not bother to check other downtrodden professions)
and after realising that the promised solution to the most disturbing game
"features" is not only not done yet... not even planned yet... but even
not decided on...
And after realising that
a) I did not want to play for a month now, and that when I joined the game,
I rapidly left the game due to disgust for notorious AFK'lers
b) I do not plan to join a "twitch based space combat game", so
why should I pay the development of this... all devs are doing JTL
now... and after Launch SWG "maybe" gets support again
c) I did not want to be Jedi in this game.. but all gameplay revolves around
being one more and more from day to day.
I am tired of getting put on hold. Tired of seeing the non communication
with the playertype I choose to be.
Bye SW:G.
regards
Warryyr
Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:58 am
#655
Hiya Tiggs. Glad you finally got to the D's. Haha.
I'm posting because this opportunity is quite rare - having the ear of a Dev in these forums. I do both Dancer and Musician stuff in this game. I've been on hiatus from the forums lately because of the bitterness that grew within me over the new Entertainer Quest andthefact we were completelyignored during our entire testing phase, though serious concerns were raised. I am in the Beta forums, feeling rewarded for my feedback - the way players shouldfeel when feedback from them is requested. I just needed a little dose of feeling like I matter to this Dev team. It feels great. So great that I hope Beta never ends, because then I fear it's back to apparently not being heard/payed attention to/saved from extinction.
I agree with everyone here, AFK has got to go. It's a completely inappropriate way for people to "play" this game. I know the perplexing aspect of it - you have the macro system in place so people can play the game easier, so you can't quite just tell people using the in-game macro is bad for one thing, but OK for another. Yet - you have a very valid reason to differentiate good vs. bad macroing.
Why is AFK macroing by Entertainers bad?
Allow me to point to your recent hotfix notes regarding the FRS system for Jedi:
Jedi
- FRS Jedi XP will no longer be granted for dueling.
Why was this done? Because of AFK dueling for FRS XP. Bravo for fixing that. Now, the problem is that FS xp CAN be generated through completely AFK play in the Jedi system. This is no secret. People have been macroing our professions for quite some time, mastering them with no effort, stealing our buff customers with annoying, spamming macros. By announcing AFK Entertaining is a bannable offense due to FS xp gain while AFK, you assert that you want people to actively pursue Jedi and not exploit the system. There's no reason why someone should be able to AFK macro their way to 4/6 branches of Force Sensitivity. That's not in any way intended gameplay, is it?
Regardless of how long it takes, think about it: you could make a combat or healing character and grind away at fighting creatures for weeks on end, or heal/buff people like mad for FS xp. Or, you can make an Entertainer and just start your player up on server start, hit 1 button, and go until server down. Tons of FS xp gained without effort. Is that working as intended? It seems to be a lousy way of earning a Jedi, but sure enough, people are doing it. And since it's part of the in-game macro system, the bots' argument is thatit's supported by you Devs. Case closed. They will hear no other words regarding it. Then they only have 2 branches to make SOME effort on. That's not fair, and it circumvents all the work you Devs have put into the system.
Please, remove the AFK play from Entertainer professions. It not only makes a mockery of us as players (sometimes in Spatial, by vindictive buffbot owners) but also mocks the Devs' work on the FS system. It is an exploit, plain and simple, now that the FS system is in place. It's a way to work around actually WORKING to get a Jedi. Was that intended by the Devs as a legitimate means of gaining a Jedi character? If so, we have problems. If not, enforce what you've already enforced with the FRS Jedi xp system and make AFK entertaining a bannable offense.
Thanks for your time.
Quick notes on other stuff Dancer-specific to fix:
1) Broken dances/missing flourishes for dances (finish the work that was started a year ago)
2) Create some kind of buffing interface (all of those combat players who say we're not broken have no right to complain when their Dance buffs fail - yeah, we ARE broken)
3) Fix getting music and dance buffs, already. It's a bug that's nearly game-breaking for groups getting buffed, and nothing, nothing, nothing has been done to correct it. It's WAY overdue fixing that. Make it a hotfix, both us and our customers are extremely angry this has gone on so long.
4) Encourage ATK playing by allowing those who click on randomly popped up windows while dancing to give better/longer buffs. Doctor buffs are 3 hours (roughly) and Dance buffs are 2 hours. Give us a 1/2 hour bonus for being ATK and entertaining, it's NOT going to break the game. Bring ATK Entertainers closer in buff duration to Doctors. It's the least you guys can do. Make people WANT to visit an ATK Dancer - not as a personal preference (nice to read that is your preference but it should be the way the game works not a choice).
All right, enough is enough - I really must be going. Lots of JTL stuff to test out.
On a final note: Talk is just that - talk. We've gotten a lot of talk and very little action lately. Sometimes we don't even get talked to (more often than is acceptable). Stop talking, we need action.
Your words, filled with conviction, are indeed heartening - but tempered by the fact that we've heard this all before. We have no reason to trust any of you to help save our game. We've heard it all before. Do something, be bold, RUN this game and LEAD this game the way it should be led. Stop AFK entertaining with a new CSR policy. It takes no developer time, just a lot of memos. Base it off of the idea that there's no AFK FS xp gain allowed. AFK macroing Entertainers are thumbing their noses at your FS system, openly taking advantage of the ability to get Jedi with no effort whatsoever. Whatever you do, save us or watch us slowly die. I've been watching it happen, and it's very upsetting - and it will continue to happen unless something is done now.
A new dance and song every 15 months will do nothing for us when the AFK bots are the only ones who play. Bots don't care what dance they do or what song they play. They just have some random song or dance in their lifeless macro, everytime they start it up, once the server comes up for the morning. Then they repeat the next morning when they've been kickedafter the server shutdown. 100,000's of Dance/Music xp gained with no effort whatsoever, no credits expended, no resources spent, no challenge. That is no way to earn a Jedi.
Thanks again, Tiggs. I know we can count on you.
All my love,
Message Edited by Warryyr on 10-13-2004 09:09 AM
DarkY0da
Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:32 am
#656
100% agree. But at this point in time I don't believe we have the time to wait for a fix to the core problem. The symptoms need to be dealt with quickly so that we are still here when the core fix comes in.(if ever)
Xyrdre wrote:
*snip the whole post*
superbike
Wed Oct 13, 2004 10:00 am
#657
RankorCity wrote:
Guys,
Dont read too much into this (i.e. - get your hopes up)....I posted about her coming and saying "hello" a few weeks ago, and Garvin really did a good job of setting me straight.
Of course, you have to notice she hasnt been in here since...
it would be great if some response aknowledging that something got recognized and noticed in here would be great for moral support
aprilia
kirah_ashlin
Wed Oct 13, 2004 10:04 am
#658
Tiggs, thank you again for coming to our little forum and acknowledging us. If you find some bitterness erupting from a few, please know that most of us feel as though we are the forgotten customers. We have lost so many entertainer players (and friends)in the past 8 months or more from frustration with the game and basic lack of attention from SOE. You coming here is indeed a bright spot, however some of us have lost faith and are barely hanging on in hopes of new changed/fixes/content/etc.
I have been playing since the middle of October 2003. This is the first online game I've ever played of any genre and I was drawn to it not because of the Star Wars theme (although I am a big SW fan) but because of the "new and exciting"aspect of the social player. I started out as a dancer and I'llgo outas a dancer. The social interplay and roleplaying aspects are what draws me to it regardless of what character I set up on what server. I mastered dancer with Kirah about 3 week later than I should have because I got caught in the beginning stages of the hologrind. I was almost in tears trying to get master those last few days- heck, just trying to get in a group when they were all AFK was next to impossible!
So, my biggest concern with the Dancer profession is the AFK/buffbot situation. Ours is the only class(entertainer)that can be completely "played" by not playing at all. It can be leveled up and continued without the player doing anything more than copying and pasting a macro, relogging after the server shuts down and clicking off the AFK button. I don't want to see macros go - I use them, too. However, something has to be done to stop thedecimating of the ent profession by FS grinders and buffbots. Buffbots pose a unique threat to our class. Live entertainers cannot be viable as long as buffbots inhabit the NPC cantinas. There is no incentive for other players to use live entertainers - they don't have to pay the buffbots for buffs or BF healing, they don't have to interact with them, they don't even have to be nice to them. I know of far too many entertainers who can't even afford to purchase clothing let alone a house and furnishings because they are not getting tips from other classes. This is not right! They shouldn't have to "live" in the cantina or rely on the generousity of other entertainers to exist in the game. We are the social class - not the homeless class!
Along those lines - buffbots who are master musicians as well as dancers are the hardest to compete with. Why? Because ever since Publish 9 came live, musicians and dancers can no longer buff together. My ingame husband, Roho, and I used to do a very nice business by buffing individuals and groups together. We haven't been able to do that for months now. Players who have alts can afford to make their buffbots pure ents - those of us who play live can't as we need additional means of support. So my second concern is the loss of ability for musicians and dancers to co-buff.
One of the arguments that players come up with for using buffbots is that they are "reliable" because they are always in the same place all the time. Register needs to be fixed!! /Who is useless and the search is buggy, as well. That would be my next concern.
Buff interface is another concern. We have no control over our buffs. Dancers have the advantage of actually "seeing" if the patron got their buff (providing they do /stopw) but musicians have to believe the player if they claim they didn't get the buff and then don't want to pay for it. Doctors have an interface, even IDs have an interface (although that one was not very well thought out or received). Entertainers should have one, as well. There have been many viable suggestions put up on this forum and the musician forum as to how to create even a simple interface. The devs should utilize the ideas many code knowledgeable players they have in these forums.
We have broken dances, falls, missing flourishes. Masters should not fall! It's ridiculous! Try doing a performance at a wedding or show some time and watch out for the falls - the fall has to go! Masters have fewer flos on their highest dances than Basic. This is not acceptable. What other elite class gets fewer specials as they master their profession?
And here's a special concern to me. Respect has been discussed in many of the replies you've gotten. I don't know if you are aware of the situation on Chilastra or not. I know that both NewJedi and Panthu have brought it to the attention of the devs many, many times. Several buffbots (part of one guild) were openly harrassing, stalking and even placing bounties on many of the live entertainers of Chil. When two of the more well known ents came on this board saying they were leaving Chil because of the harrassment (and one of them even had to hide which server he was moving to because of threats that the buffbots would follow him) it was more than most of us could take. The devs weren't doing anything, the CSRs were quoting "freedom of speech" rights and bullies were being allowed free reign. A community counter attack was launched and many dancers and musicians created new entertainers on Chil to show their support for the ents there and held Chil's first Cantina Crawl. The buffbots backed down some, but they are still there and still strong and still spamming the entertainer chat channel with so much grief that we had to create a private one! If these "players" (who are nothing more substantial than schoolyard bullies) are allowed to act like this on one server, what would stop it from spreading to other servers? This behavior cannot be tolerated and SOE must do something about it - now!
I hope that you will take these concerns back to the dev table and that the devs will come to understand our level of frustration and our feelings of neglect. We want to enjoy the game. We want to feel appreciated, and we want to appreciate the devs. We aren't asking for special concessions, we just want our profession to be fixed.
Thank you so much for your time and interest, Tiggs!
Message Edited by kirah_ashlin on 10-13-2004 01:10 PM
MethodSDT
Wed Oct 13, 2004 11:12 am
#659
It is my firm belief that the buff system for entertainers needs to be revamped. It's unfriendly, for the entertainer and the watcher/listener,and unreliable.
kirah_ashlin wrote:
[snip]
Buff interface is another concern. We have no control over our buffs. Dancers have the advantage of actually "seeing" if the patron got their buff (providing they do /stopw) but musicians have to believe the player if they claim they didn't get the buff and then don't want to pay for it. Doctors have an interface, even IDs have an interface (although that one was not very well thought out or received). Entertainers should have one, as well. There have been many viable suggestions put up on this forum and the musician forum as to how to create even a simple interface. The devs should utilize the ideas many code knowledgeable players they have in these forums.
[snip]
Samtha
Wed Oct 13, 2004 11:31 am
#660
Tiggs wrote:
We (the team) are all concerned about this issue and we will have this fixed. I know you have heard that over and over but not from me So hang in there we will be addressing the recursive macroing issues after we ship JtL.
You know Tiggs... I see this as you and the devs having fantastically good intentions... and that scares me..
Please, please, please, please dont make a fix that will stomp all over the entertainers and add in more "forced interaction".... I have -enough- forced interaction with shuttle wait times, ID timers, minimum buff times, etc etc.. make it a system that we would prefer over what we have now.. dont make it awkward, unfriendly or require us jumping through hoops....
That said I do have to say I make a reasonable effort to hunt down live entertainers on my combat toon when I need them... I will -always- tip when I receive services... but live entertainers receive far more money... live buffers receive far more money...
I have also created a entertainer character on another server from my main since I need a change from pure combat and I loved entertainer from the first time I mastered it... I am having fun and I refuse to be AFK in a cantina longer than it takes to make a sandwich..
In other words, make it worthwhile to be live at the keyboard, and NOT just penalize the AFKers... give us experience bonuses and faster healing for our customers if we are there as opposed to an account that no mouse or keyboard traffic has gone across in some time (because the AFK tag is meaningless)... it's not hard and would help a lot..
If you -have- to force interaction, dont take up the full screen with some unfriendly, ugly interface to force us to go through hoops to do what we enjoy doing...
/rant off
Qojan
Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:04 pm
#661
OK heres my 2cr. worth.
First off Thank You for asking for our input.
A little about me, I've been playing since late may. I'm a Master Smuggler/3,4,2,3 Creature Handler (planing on mastering), 0,3,1,0 pistoler. By the time I master CH I will have used all of my SP's. I'm 99% PVE so I have to rely on my Brother and Sisters that do for thier opinon
My biggest problem with CH on a wholeis the lack of a defined combat role. My pets are not just my companions they ARE my weapon of choice. Heres a short list of ideals
1) Pull a pet after being attacked.
2) Group my pet no matter the group leader is.
3) let my pet keep up with me when mounted/make mounted pets faster.
4) Make my pet stronger. My almost 10k HAM pet should last a few minutes in PVE.
Right now I eather have to havea petout all the time or fight with out one. neither one is practical.
Having one out can be a pain as it slows me downi'f i'm hunting in a group. I need stop far enough away to allow me ttime topull a pet. I have to wait after to put it away.while i'm holding to group up) I cant group my pet unless i'm close to the group leader(hard to keep track of the pets health)
Hope this made sence.
Panthu
Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:10 pm
#662
SumemerNights wrote:
I try not to let the broken dances hinder me by adding coments in to explain why as a master dancer I fell, or why as a master at music I hit that flat note.
a. The "broken" dances don't look like you are falling, they don't look like anything real. They are glitched and "broken" anims to the viewer. You slide across the floor in a slow-mo walk and jerk in and out of the intended anim. No RP in the world will help that.
b. Musicians don't have a fail mechanic like our falling.
Hate to be a hiney about it, but a Red Tag is reading and might get a confused message. 
joined42904
Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:13 pm
#663
That idea of grouping your pet no matter who or where the group leader is would be wonderful. It would let you store the pet, travel, then pull your pet out again and group the pet.
I totally agree that it's hard to keep track of pets' health when not grouped.
This one change would probably fix my most major annoyance as a CH.