Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: CL 10 Creatures Still too much
Talthazar wrote:
Nobody is using bugged dna this time,
There never was any bugged DNA. No, that isn't an official statement, just my thought on it. It was the BE's who claimed certain DNA was bugged bacause certain types of DNA made it eaier to create high powered low level clones. First it was Kamarith DNA, then it was Death head merek DNA. Ultimately, some people were able to produce the same results with other DNA using enough clone generations and "bugged" dna wasn't even necessary. To my mind the problem is with the crafting system, not the DNA.
Completely agree Talth - I had my first suspicions based of very very early reports from Tal-N specifically and everything after that pointed a siginificant problem in the crafting system using dna from creatures with equal across the board effectiveness resists. The dna itself wasn't 'bugged', there was a problem with the way its stats were being interpreted.
As to the main drive of this thread - I hope this issue can be dealt withand dealt with soon. IMO, as both a BE and a CH, the current crop of non-CH pets are 3 or 4 times stronger than they should be and that the CL system still places far far too much emphasis on the damage dealt by a pet when, particularly for non-CH, that is totally irrelevent. 2k HAM and 10-20% kinetic resist is more than enough for that level of pet, and far exceeds anything available in the wild which must be the standard we are judged against. Yes, we are supposed to make better pets that wild ones, but not by orders of magnitude. Even the 2k pet I consider reasonable is above the stated dev intent of making non-CH pets combat ineffective.
Tevys wrote:
Some of us make money only by selling pets.. to tell us that our pets my be invalid once again is very disturbing. Us crafters that are not combat class use our products as a means of survival, and we are the ones that help push the economy. You telling us and the public that our pets may be invalid has hurt our business. Why would anyone buy a pet now? Some of us specialize in low level pets. And now it is all for nothing.
I know this is going to be an unpopular thing to say on this thread (yay, more 1 stars for me!!!) but I really don't see what the big deal is unless people are being deliberately disingenuous. Explain to your customers that the pet they are buying today may have a limited lifespan. Offer, say, a full refund if this next fix happens in a week, a 50% refund if it happens in a month andearly priorityin the queue for new pets if it happens in 2 months. Quite frankly, if a customer of mine comes up to me after he's been using a pet for 2 months expecting a refund because of a rule change he can stick it...well, you know where 
I would love to see guidelines on what our targets should be for CL 10 (especially) as much as anyone else, but I do think there has been a heck of a lot of melodrama about this so far. Why would someone buy a pet now? So they can use it until the next fix comes in, which, as Talth says, is likely to be some time down the road. Keep your customer informed and they will be fine about it, but please, lets try to cut back on the hystrionics guys.
One more time i choose again a profession which 'll be nerfed !
The base of the genetic is to create things that we can't find naturally in the nature. Yes a pet with 6k ham is not correct but why can i create a pet if i can tame the same things in the nature. Stupide !
If the devs want non-CH pets to be mostly ornamental, they should just say so and quit "tuning"...nerf the <bleep> out them and have done.
As soon as the droids "invade" we'll be pretty much out of the non-CH-tank business if we're making 2K HAM/15% resist critters like some people seem to think should be our max.
As a point of reference I chose to "Adjust Stats" on my CL15...the HAMs went down about 70%(for health)to 2700and the resists from 30% to 5%. However my CL20 is still perfectly "valid" with 9K/7K/7K, armor, and 44% kinetic. Both were madebefore the first try at "invalidating" pets. Which means that while tanking,my new "valid" CL15 can take about 2.8K of health damage where my CL20 can take about 35K of health damage beforefalling over. And my CL10 which was "Adjust Level"ed went up to CL15 too...and it has 6K/3K/3K HAM and 20-ish resists.
The processes of "adjusting" and determining CLs are fubar'ed. The dev (or devs) need to have a cranio-rectumectomy stat! Someone call a master doctor...
-Lens Larque/Master Bio-Engineer/Eclipse
Well I for one am switching RIGHT NOW to Chef to make up for the money I'll lose from refunding to all the people I have sold to. I make pets with 5k Health 4K Action and 1K Mind, 14% resist to Kinetic and Blast and 70 Damage. I waited until AFTER Pub 6 so i knew I would be making legal pets. I depended on SOE to do it right and allow me the comfort of mind that everything was OK. Now I find that they will create a problem far larger than i ever imagined.
Final Point: The pets I make should be equal to whatever droid can be pulled out by anyone. otherwise NOONE will buy pets, they will buy Droids. Do you hear me SOE !!!
MAKE PETS EQUAL TO DROIDS
If not, then the droids should be brought down in abilities also.
HMM, maybe i should just do DE instead and start now as everyone is talking about getting a new Droid anyway. Yes thats what ill do and maybe it will unlock my Jedi slot, since I have been guessing on it for 3 months now. Guessing Jedi slot, Guessing whats legal to make as a NON CH Pet. Guessing what they will do when they change the way you achieve Jedi. Wheres my Crystal Ball, I need it real bad right now.
PS: Tal, your calculations on what a NON CH should be are way off. PLease before you make ANY recommendations, take a 4K Ham Pet with 13 to 14% resist and 70 damage out and fight with it. PLease just do this and you will realize that they ARE NOT Overpowered.
I agree that anything over 6KHealth Hamis probably bad. That has been the limit that one can currently make and still have decent action and mind. OH yea at 30 Damage, whenI shoot the MOB with my pistol, it instantly turns and attacks me instead. What good is that?
My 3 cents worth,
illusive
After much thinking on this, I have decided NOT to refund anyone their money for pets they bought.
Instead I will remake for them the best Pet possible under the new rules and tell them to send all compliants here on this forum directed to TAL. Or heck, I may replace the pet i made with a Droid for free. DE is looking better all the time I think about it. And to think that all I wanted to do was help the NON CH people replace their invalid pets. Now my pets will be invalid. What a world we play in.
PS: Remember that DROIDS should not be MORE powerful than BE made pets. Look at the stats they are giving droids. Really, think of what will happen to the profession you chose to represent TAL. It will cease to exist.
Thanks for letting us know Talth, I know it's not your fault that Kel doesn't like giving BE's any info at all about anything. Ever.
You've been doing a great job as BE rep and I'm not upset at you, I'm upset at the Dev's for telling us we're making "wrong" pets but not to worry about it, they'll fix them in good time.....after we've shippedhundreds of them. Once again BE's will be the ones to cop the "Teh ar dirtiexploiters!!!111".
Talthazar wrote:
I agree with others that a statement like you make here does more harm than good. It does us no good to know that "some pets have unbalanced stats" unless there is also a guideline to back this up. Frankly, I'm dissappointed that you had this type of conversation with the developer and didn't touch on this issue as this is clearly one of the hottest issues in this profession right now.
I understand and agree withthis sentiment, and I want the answer as much as you do. I simply haven't been given it yet. I would like to point out to people thatthese pets are not invalid. They are actually legal within the current system and they won't be going poof when they grow up. They are just stronger than intended. It's likely going to be months before another change is made and none of these will change until then. I know this isn't an answer that'sgoing to make anyone happy, but I couldn't see holding the information and not telling you guys in hopes of the rest of the answer.
OK, I would like some screenshots of these uber pets and how you made them. This is not so that I can make them, but because I think you are overselling their value by having a few lopsided stats.
When I went out into the wilds with my lvl 6 station droid and I got 5xVHQ samples rock beetle DNA, and I only experimented on 3 of the 5 attributes, the resultant pet had its CL increase from CL13 to CL14, and the stats of my bioengineered pet were worse than the wild version. The experimented stats were actually lower than the wild ones. You heard it right, higher CL, worse attributes.Thats right, a MBE with good tools and station and materials and I got worse than wild. I was so pissed off that I punched the holocron and dumped BE. A MBE with good tools, materials, and DNA should be able to easily surpass the original on a 1st generation clone. My impression was that the system globally docks attributes per generation, and you can recover attributes by experimentation, but not all attributes. The pets you are making must start from much higher lvl DNA and use the global docking to hit CL10. The problem here is that the algorithim for docking needs examination, but SOE's solution was to fix something else, and hence the rock beetle experiment.
So what is it you guys are doing? Are you still doing the gimp the crap out of courage trick with the trade in for 0% armor gimmick? The resultant pet is a cowardly piece of garbage. When you nerf courage, your pet cant tank worth anything. It runs. All the time. You spend all your time hammering 'tellpet attack' to get it to actually stay on the mob. Are you guys making these worthless pieces of junk and saying 'hey, like wow, look at the HAM, this thing is too uber!'. Come on! Are we talking pets that appear good, or pets that actually function here? A pet has to have decent HAM, resists, hit rate, and courage/dependability to function as a tank, and if you zero out any of these, you have problems. Pets hold agg by hitting and doing damage.
So prove to me that these new 'uber pets' really function worth a crap. Are you guys actually pet users, or does your involvement end with putting your clone up on the vendor? How many garbage pets have you foisted off? I was pretty angry when you people calling for nerf invoked this crummy form of pets. The problem is to fix the loophole pets, not to penalize pets across the board. What is the exploit you use to make 'uber pets'? It is that which should be patched, and you should not make the same stupid mistake of calling for a general pet nerf while retaining that exploit.
These uber animals are made from combining DNA and resampling the creations. You then combine thebio-engineered DNA with either wild DNA or other bio-engineered DNA. You can refine the stats by generationalizing your animals. It takes time and practice. A skilled BE can make some scary animals using this process.
These skilled bio-engineers may potentially be punished for their hard work.
I'm not so upset about the fix as I am about having no clue what I can make right now that will fall within the "valid" stats months from now. I'm expected to sit on my hands for a few months or prepare to refund a bunch of customers for animals I hoped would be valid. That's rediculous but its par for our dev.
I see us having this same conversation several times over the ensuing months, and I have little faith that they will finally fix the system to fit their intent. The only thing that will keep this from happening is when the entire non-CH market dries up due to stiff competition from droids and/or loss of customer faith.
Worst part is that from now on I will never be able to trust this system they created. Even if they "say" it is finally fixed, I will always suspect that another correction or fix is coming around the corner, making any of my last month's work subject to validation checks through no fault of my own.
And to think this thing once held so much promise......
Message Edited by Germaine on 02-25-2004 04:01 PM