Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: 4th Gen non ch pet I just made!!!
I can't see any way it can be an exploit if there are no published guidelines as to what is possible. But that's only my opinion and there's good arguments on both sides. I think the best way to judge what they allow is to look at what they are doing. Currently I have a CL 10 Gurreck, 7k/5k/3k HAM, no armour, 23% resist Kinetic and 120 damage. NO specials and NO ranged. Nowhere near as powerful as the pets reported here.
I try and call him and get the message that his stats will have to be adjusted. I click 'change stats' because I want to keep him and I've never actually used him in combat. I'm a TKA, so you can imagine how useful he would be 
Anyway, the bottom line is, the server gives an error, so he's stuck in my datapad forever. The CSRs can't/won't do anything - so that's it. I'm SOL.
I think the only 'exploit' part of the equation is selling a pet like that. I guess it would be worth 500k - 1 mill, which is what I would expect to pay. I'd be a tad razzed if I couldn't call it after a few days because SoE can't implement a bloody 'stat altering' algorithm.
My pet is a 'weenie' compared to these, the server would have a heart attack trying to change those stats, so selling them knowing they are probably going to be datapad detritus, is an exploit (of players).
GotharMarath wrote:
(a lot of good stuff)
Let me just throw this out here, and then I think we'll all just have to agree to disagree until some official word comes out. At least, after everyone gets in their last word.
Other crafting professions collect resources with stats that change on a regular basis, providing infinitely different results, depending on the numbers in the stats - OQ, PE, DR, etc. These resources are combined into schematics and experimented on. Some schematics can take "super" resources, like rancor teeth, or sarlaac bile, or krayt tissue, that boosts the stats of the product significantly. These options provide the means for a crafter to have quite different results in their outcomes.
BE is a crafting profession. Only, if I get a high quality sample from a dewback or a rancor or any creature this week, the high quality sample that I take from that creature next month is going to be almost the exact same. I hate the thought that some of our uniqueness and "scientific-ness" could be removed, particularly by nerfing sampling of generational pets. With this capability, it seems like there is always something to explore or discover or achieve. Without it, it's only a matter of (a short) time until the "best" combinations are mapped out and the only variance becomes experimentation.
Until such times as a red name says this is illegal or about to be changed, I'm not going to wring my hands and nerf my creations. As a poster said above, I'll make the very best creatures I can, and if the system is changed/nerfed/fixed/whatever, I'll make the very best creatures I can then too.The fun of the BE system is trying new combinations for more or less power in certain areas, depending on the purpose of the pet. Ifwecan't make the best petspossible within the existing system throughnormal permitted processes, what's the point of even being aBE?
Crying "exploiter, cheater" isn't going to affect my playstylemuch until it's declared so by someone other than chicken little's; it will make me feelirritated and insulted though.
Madry wrote:
GotharMarath wrote:
(a lot of good stuff)
Let me just throw this out here, and then I think we'll all just have to agree to disagree until some official word comes out. At least, after everyone gets in their last word.
Other crafting professions collect resources with stats that change on a regular basis, providing infinitely different results, depending on the numbers in the stats - OQ, PE, DR, etc. These resources are combined into schematics and experimented on. Some schematics can take "super" resources, like rancor teeth, or sarlaac bile, or krayt tissue, that boosts the stats of the product significantly. These options provide the means for a crafter to have quite different results in their outcomes.
BE is a crafting profession. Only, if I get a high quality sample from a dewback or a rancor or any creature this week, the high quality sample that I take from that creature next month is going to be almost the exact same. I hate the thought that some of our uniqueness and "scientific-ness" could be removed, particularly by nerfing sampling of generational pets. With this capability, it seems like there is always something to explore or discover or achieve. Without it, it's only a matter of (a short) time until the "best" combinations are mapped out and the only variance becomes experimentation.
Until such times as a red name says this is illegal or about to be changed, I'm not going to wring my hands and nerf my creations. As a poster said above, I'll make the very best creatures I can, and if the system is changed/nerfed/fixed/whatever, I'll make the very best creatures I can then too.The fun of the BE system is trying new combinations for more or less power in certain areas, depending on the purpose of the pet. Ifwecan't make the best petspossible within the existing system throughnormal permitted processes, what's the point of even being aBE?
Crying "exploiter, cheater" isn't going to affect my playstylemuch until it's declared so by someone other than chicken little's; it will make me feelirritated and insulted though.
So I'll be glad to sell that CH a lvl 15+ pet, with armor, that'll kick the crap out of that non-ch pet, but require CH point investment to use. What do you see the point of bioengineer if not to provide pets at a certain level that are not superior than wild ones at that level?
ScoutMastr wrote:
Being the "best" you can at BE is all good, but let's look at the big picture. We can make CL10 monsters, that can actually beat CL15+ wild creatures, and they don't require any skill points--how do you think that makes a CH feel? A CH is using his skill points to tame powerfulcreatures, and along comes a NON-CH with a more powerful pet...**edit**? A CH becomes a CH for that reason, to be able to use pets that NON-CH's can't (snip)
Message Edited by Madry on 02-18-2004 12:27 PM
The fact is that currently validnon-chpets which are 2000/2000/2000 are more that twice as good as any wild CL10 pet. As you continue up the CL ratings that decreases and it's obvious that it does. CL30 pets with 11k of HAM, light armor and decent resits are comparable to something around CL40 in some cases when you come to wild animals. Everything a bio-engineer makes in terms of pets is always better than the wild one because we have what can be called a CL discount. If you leave damage alone and bump everything else you can copy a CL50 animal and it'll be around CL45. It's not a huge bonus but it can make all the difference to someone who isn't that advanced. There are utterly no CL70 pets in the wild, if CH wants one then it's made. It won't be better than a CL80 one that much is certain however CHs buy them because its the only way to have something that powerful.
The bottom line to all our creations in terms of what makes them special is because they're unique, things which can be focussed towards a fixed goal which makes them far better than anything in the wild. Finally i'd like to say this, there is no BEST when it comes to these pets. Not when the CL ratings are identical. If you tested a pair of CL50 pets in different scenarios you'd find time when they outperform one another. NEVER will one always come out on top, it's impossible for them to be better in all ways than something of the same rating. You want to make the best of the best is simply showing how little you understand the meaning of the Challenge rating system and it's intention. I strongly susspect you were one of the people who ground your way to master, learning nothing along the way and not having any grasp of the intentions of the systems you're dealing with.
In short, you're a disgrace to the profession.
We all know that the pet in the original post and some of the others being listed are examples of the idiotic random variables put into the Bio-Engineer Crafting system.
Oh and yes they will probably become invalid or not able to be controlled. I think we all know this.
Unless of course that weird bug still exists with certain creatures in which case it wont matter what CL the thing is, since there CL data base is messed up.
----
By the way, the CL we see looking at something is different then the Real CL of something.
Thats right the system change also resulted in two databases, and thus the resulting obsolete system is still in place with things still making calls to the old system.
-----
Anywise...Genration clones is in no way an exploit, as for the reason a Bio-Engineer is around, is not for the power, but for the functionality and also for the God like ability to do so and to prove it.
In other words, a Bio-Engineers role is to make an option that does not follow technology or try to prove that technology is not all that and a bag of chips.
Posit would you rather have SCUBA gear or a Living Mask that gets oxygen from the water or perhaps surgicaly attached gills.
WOuld you rather have a normal pet that anyone could catch, or would you rather have a different creature with wings and things that is a total mutant or would you rather have a cute little creature that can become something more viscous then any thing known.
That is the role of the Bio-Engineer...to have the eternal struggle to prove that life is stronger then non-life. And that in doing things like creating life and thus being able to terminate it that they are closer to being like God and therefore they are closer to understanding God.
And as the saying goes...if you undertsand something completely then you are that much closer to becoming greater.
Go ahead and flame me.
Oh and by the way, my friend with no CH skills can stull use his level 68 dew back I made for him.
So go figure the CL sytem is still messed up.
And so is the Crafting system.
Most everyone knew or suspected as much...so consider this post a confirmation.
In short, you're a disgrace to the profession.
Wow Tal. Little bit of a rant going on there, eh? Since some of seems aimed at me, let me respond:
First, I am not yet a Master Bioengineer. I haven't been grinding. I have been collecting DNA samples and trying to figure out how this freaking system works through experimentation and reading the boards. Some of your posts have been helpful in that pursuit and I appreciate them.
However, it is possible to try and make the best pet you can make for a certain situation. IE PvE. Maybe Herbie meat collecting pet for a Doctor. NPC weapon resist pet for a faction player. Whatever. That is the type of Best Pet I am trying to create. The best for whatever said goal.
Now, as for being a disgrace to the profession, well that is just a load of bantha pudu. You expect me to believe that because I want to understand and utilize the system, that makes me a bad person? You think that you are the only one who can play with the system and try and see what they can make because you have been here the longest? I chose to climb BE because I like the Mad Scientist aspect of it. Heck stop by my shop or spa and check them out. I have put decent effort into creating an atmosphere of such as I play the game.
What youseem to besaying is that because I want to make creatures that stand out, that make people want to buy them, that I should be ashamed of myself. If I were making items that were way out of whack, I would be. But something 2x as good as wild? Not ashamed at all. Something made with 3rd or 4th generation DNA that is exceptional beyond that and doesn't require Crit fails to reproduce, well, Yay for me. Hopefully, the devs will fix the system to help keep the balance in line with their grand plan, but just as hopefully they will not take away the ability to make creatures exceptionally tailored for specific purposes. I would hate it if the grinders, who you obviously hold disdain for, were able to hit master BE and start cranking out creatures as good as, say, you could. I know it happens in a lot of other professions. But I think BE is more complex than even armorsmith and I like it that way. Plug the holes (like lowering the fortitude to nothing not having an effect on the finished creature) and let us keep at it.
And just for the note, I have not successfully made a Class 10 pet yet. At all. I have made a class 19 first generation that I am pretty proud of, and don't plan to sample. But all my failed 13's and 11's? Well, they are gonna be sampled and the DNA used to try and create a more specialized, "better" pet, just like they were intended to.....
Tal-N wrote:
Finally i'd like to say this, there is no BEST when it comes to these pets. Not when the CL ratings are identical. If you tested a pair of CL50 pets in different scenarios you'd find time when they outperform one another. NEVER will one always come out on top, it's impossible for them to be better in all ways than something of the same rating. You want to make the best of the best is simply showing how little you understand the meaning of the Challenge rating system and it's intention. I strongly susspect you were one of the people who ground your way to master, learning nothing along the way and not having any grasp of the intentions of the systems you're dealing with.In short, you're a disgrace to the profession.
Actually it goes to show how little you know or care about what you sell to your customers. Most of our pets have been made for PvE. That means 60% kinetic, the ham as high as you can get it, damage as high as you can get it. It is totally useless to have heat resist on a PvE pet. So you are wrong. In PvE your 50% Kitentic 50% Energy 30% Blast pet will ALWAYS fall short to our 60% Kinetic vuln to all else when tanking a rancor.
We make SPECIFIC pets. We take requests. They want 2 oddball specials and no ranged.. thats what they get. The have a max CL, we make it within thier limit.
And tell us o wise Tal-N.. what ARE the intentions of this wonderous system you speak of? And is this the same system you say was created by someone without a clue? You are quick to put down the system.. yet quick to defend it in the next breath. I've been playing since Beta3. I've tried several of the crafting professions and by far this is the most complicated and enjoyable of them.
As far as being a disgrace to the profession.. well I suppose it would take one to know one. You stated specifically you had pets useing the "known bugged DNA". None of our pets were lost in the last patch.. how many of yours were? How many credits did you have to refund.. or more likely.. how many customers did you ignore? I also have an Alt thats a CH. We had him tame several of the Duo and Trio pets more than a week before patch.. and before we sold one.. to make sure they'd remain valid.
I feel for your customers.. really..I do. Ours know that if there is ever a problem they can bring it back for a refund or replacement. We aren't in this profession for the credits. Its all about the challenge of making something that people WANT to give you money for. Its the thrill poking a Mutant rancor in the backside and getting away with it. Its about FUN.
Anyhow, I am doing something about getting it looked at. Are you? I am also looking to get it either fixed or told they will be left as is. I have yet to say that our pets WILL remain valid, only that i hope they will.
And as I said a few posts back.. if you can't (and YOU can't) point out what or where we are doing it wrong, then don't waste your time with us. You've already shown by your past comments that you'd prefer to be thought of as the ut-most authority on all things BE. Thankfully.. you're not the correspondnet.
Agissar
Master BioEngineer
Prasthaa Agnii, Naboo
Tarquinas
And as the saying goes...if you undertsand something completely then you are that much closer to becoming greater.
Only he could have come up with a system so half baked as this.
and once that is gone, what will you go with your "missed CL mark" pets? destroy them. architects dont grind up a harvestor that didnt make it to ER10, use it again in another harvestor and suddenly get an ER17 harvestor that takes no power or maintenence. why should a BE be able to do the same thing? thats what it boils down to.
you are using an option that produces results much different than the intended results. it doesnt matter that theyre better. if that was all this was about, making a better pet, wed all be doing this. but were not. youre very seriously breaking the rules. not just bending them, breaking them.
its pretty frickin simple folks. if you can make something through generational manipulation that you cant make with regular DNA samples, then something is wrong. go out and sample REAL animals and get a pet like the ones youre boasting, and ill listen. until then, in my opinion you are exploiting the system (thats what an exploit is for those of you who get easily offended, its allowed by the system, but youre EXPLOITING that system).
unfortunately for you, its not just my opinion, its not just tal's opinion, its not just every BE who busts their ass trying to sell legit pets to customers who only know your exploited ones, its the devs opinion. and in the end, its they who will nerf the hell out of your pets, and them who youll be submitting bug reports to because you think its unfair"
Ok look nothing. Were you drunk when you commented on this. Do you even understand the fundemental differences between working with construction materials and dna. THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE. DONT COMPARE APPLES TO ORANGES. COMPARE APPLES TO APPLES!!
Quite honestly the reason we are all in the profession is the control we have.(or lack thereof.... with some incredible flukes here and there)
Pet Cloning was never designed to be simple crafting like the others. It was designed to be Hard but rewarding. Now you say we should not have generation experimentation. You are like the nerf callers. Quick to speak and slow to realize the mistake.
hehe. Really Owik? You would listen if I were able to make a pet like this with 1st generation DNA? While I respect your opinion on this, I really doubt you would listen. I think you would scream "Bugged DNA! You are an exploiter!"
Thing about architects and harvestors is the fact that even if they miss the level they were aiming for, they still have a viable product for sale. Also, it is much easier for them to figure out what went wrong and fix it on their next attempt. And that second attempt can use the same exact resources from the giant stack they built upwhen they plopped a harvestor down on it. Where are my stacks, where are my harvestors. The 2 don't compare....
I like the idea of Multigenerational cloning, despite not having had a chance to try it yet. I just think it needs tweaked to work the way it was intended. Not "nerfed" out of existance. Although that would be the easy answer, just not the right one.