Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: nocious kahmurrith dna the real information and rant
I don't understand the point your trying to make Gryphons.
25 of anything half decent will beat most things in the game solo. If the point your trying to make is that people can have a few of these, even an MCH could only have 3 out, a Non-CH could only have one.
One fact about the new system. CL and "wild" comparisons don't mean whatthey used to. A Kaadu can now be level 2-70+. A Gnortt can have 50% kin and specials found on critters from Endor. A Gurreck can be CL10 with no specials and all 0 resists.
For all intents and purposes, CL can only be used to determin the range a creature can be used within <=10, <=23, <=35 and <=70. The only one of real interest in this is the Non-CH range of 1-10 (usable by anyone), so the level 2 may as well be a level 10.
If sub10 pets are nerfed to hell, most people on the server won't bother getting a pet from a BE. Look what happened when the rebalance went through, dabbler CH's were torching their Rock Beetles, people did the pet trade in and then deleted them out of their datapad. At least you see moreDroids around now.
When Combat Droids come in soon and they're beefed up versions of Probots (that are stillnon-ch controlable), who will want to buy even a 10k HAM Bio pet?
Hmm...Gurrcat or Droideka? Not much of a desicion to make there, is there?
meroc wrote:
You do realise the CH system and creature rebalance was actually, partially, doneto makeBE's viable, don't you? Thats why so many CH's got PO with us.
Soooo if the system is sooo out of balance that is sooo obvious I must be an idiot not to see it, all that testing that was done on TC was a complete waste of time? The Devs added the system in without trying a few combos/generations themselves and a system thats sooooo out of balance accidently slipped in on the live servers?
Yes just like the vehicle bugs thathad 10,000 ghost vehicles outside every starport, and the bugs that go through test from every patch. You think they actually fully test stuff?
So, as a psudodev, you know exactly how this system is supposed to be working, but it isn't within your parameters?
We just listen to what devs say, watch what they do and guess like everyone else, including you. It's not that big a deal really.
The only thing I agree with is that there are a few pics kicking around that seem to show pets that couldbe powerful if you call this powerful:
CL2
9090 health / 4752 action / 4214 mind
43% to everything but stun
140-150 damage / 2.17 speed / 24% accuracy
Of course, my Rancor would tear it apart and eat it for breakfast as would most creatures on Endor orDathomir and it probably would only do "ok" on a few other planets. "But it's level 2". Soooo what. Non-CH's can use anything in a 1-10 range, so for all intents an purposes it may as well be level 10. Once again, soooo what? Even a Mountain Squill would give this a run for it's money as the thing would have trouble even hitting the Squill once a week.
Whether a rancor could beat it in a stand up fight is beside the point and doesn't matter. It's stats when compared to wild should make it about a CL30. Lots of creatures could kill a graul mauler pre nerftoo, but the devs said they were way overpowered for their CL and allowed folks to tank large creatures with ease. Same thing here.
Actually, I'd be more than happy to set that match up, that pile ofHAM Vs my Rancor, no assistance from 3rd parties, winner takes the losers pet. I doubt the owner would be stupid enough to take the bet. That being the case, is that pet really sooo good and a challange to CH's? Pfft, as a MCH I still haven't made anything that I'd use (Except a neat little Kaadu) as the Devs did a much better job of rounding creatures out balance wise than most of the things I've seen BE's make so far (myself included). If I get lucky and find a Bull Ranc baby, I doubt theres a BE in the game on any server that could make anything that would interest me.
It would interest me. As an MCH if i can have 3 creatures out that are as good as your rancor (I currently use a pair of ar1 60% resist cats I made) I'll be a lot better off than with one rancor of equal strength, and I plan to try to make 3 CL22 cats wih ar1 60% resists before the devs nerf things.
How about you leave the bug calls to the real devs and the insults at home Mr "I-have-a-clue-but-you-don't"?
That's exactly what folks are doing, they are just voicing their opinio that it'll get nerfed is all. Just like you voicing your opinion that they don't need it.
Whether they need it or not judging from all the devs have said and done, I'll bet ya 10,000 credits it gets nerfed.
Ok, my 2 cents worth.
Last timeI checked, this is a GAME!! According to the dictionary, a game is : An activity providing entertainment or amusement; a pastime. I play this to have fun, so far I am having a great time with BE. I made my first armored pet 5 minutes before the server shut down this morning and it gave me a great boost to my day.
While I applaud all of the effort that many of you have put into trying to figure out the randomness of the new cloning system, I have to say that maybe you are all taking this a little bit too seriously. It's not like we are selling Heroin to kids as candy. We are taking little bits of code, making other bits of code, using little bits of code to transfer the larger bits of code to other bits of code in exchange for bits of code. 
Tal-n and I had a few back and forth posts about a bunny i made for a guildie that he thought was excessive. I was a little cranky to be almost labeled an exploiter, but then realized it just didn't matter in the scheme of things.
I will continue to make the pets i want to make. I don't personally over sample my clones to make lvl3 pets with 10k HAM, nor do i plan to. I also don't take exhaustive notes on how each clone was made and what DNA in what slot yadda yadda yadda. I sell most of my low level pets to my guild mates to use as cannon fodder against AT-ST's, and sell them with the caveat that they may be nerfed in the near future, and I will provide no refunds on any pets. I keep getting emails from my friends asking me to make level 10 pets with 3k HAM, and i tell them the same thing.
Is the cloning system weird, random and hard to understand? YES! Is it bugged? MAYBE. Is it worth your time and effort to go flaming each other about how your way is the only way and anyone else is an expoiter? Thats up to you to decide. For me, the answer is no. I have too much fun with this game (and too many stresses in my Real Life) to sweat over this issue.
So to those who want to make the uber pets, more power to you...to those that don't I wish the same. to those that have a good time with this game, I hope you continue to do so (and if you need an extra needle on Dath or Endor look me up). Thanks to all for the good information on BE....May the Force (or the Devs) be with you.
~Dryte
Wookie Master CH / 3/2/4/3 BE / Novice Pistoleer
Member in Good Standing of TMC
BE vendor at Drytes Research Lab in Justice City, Corellia
Message me for pricing on BE items and Creature Taming/Training Requests
Apology accepted. If I took your retort the wrong way I also extend my apologies to you.
I've been in MMOG's since 96, so I know a tad about them as well, and one thing I do know is that the devs are the only holders of the road map. The give us glimpses of that map on occasion, but only they know what they intend/intended and where the whole thing is heading.
Whether this is an actual bug or not, people have made it into a de facto bug even before the people that can actually say whether it is or not have even said anything on the issue.
The complaint?
That some BE pets are "too good".
Maybe they are, maybe they aren't and maybe they are right where the Devs want them. The _Devs_ will tell us if something is wrong and take whatever action is required, NOT the players.
Thats what I'm taking exception too. That a certain group of players (you know who you are) are blowing this situation out of proportion even to the point where Non-BE's are getting worried about buying BE pets and a lot of BE's are worried about selling them. That's not "reporting a bug", thats rumor mongering.
Maybe sub-tenswill get nerfed. Thats fine, if the _devs_ think it's broken, it's their job to fix it. Ours is to make pets for people, not create fear of buying a BE pet...
KnoleLightfoot wrote:
I do realise the balance is not complete...but it is "mostly" done for CH and Creatures. Next in line is the combat re-balance and profession sweeps. More tweeking will be done on all fronts I'm sure.
Woo woo take it easy man. No one called you an idiot. It is out of ballance...that is plane to see. How out of ballance will be determined by the Dev's that is true. I don't claim to have a Dev in my pocket but I do know about game design and I have been keeping up with what these Devs have in mind. There are more examples of out of balance creations then you mention with far reaching ramifications.
As for not being able to make anything "usefull" that is too bad...I have made many usable pets and I too am an MCH. I guess we have different ideason what is usefull....and ballanced for that matter.
"How about you leave the bug calls to the real devs and the insults at home Mr "I-have-a-clue-but-you-don't"?" Wow...you need to take a step back and take a deep breath. This isn't worth getting so worked up over. I wans't trying to insult you and if you took it that way...I apoligize.
meroc wrote:
Apology accepted. If I took your retort the wrong way I also extend my apologies to you.
I've been in MMOG's since 96, so I know a tad about them as well, and one thing I do know is that the devs are the only holders of the road map. The give us glimpses of that map on occasion, but only they know what they intend/intended and where the whole thing is heading.
Whether this is an actual bug or not, people have made it into a de facto bug even before the people that can actually say whether it is or not have even said anything on the issue.
The complaint?
That some BE pets are "too good".
Maybe they are, maybe they aren't and maybe they are right where the Devs want them. The _Devs_ will tell us if something is wrong and take whatever action is required, NOT the players.
Thats what I'm taking exception too. That a certain group of players (you know who you are) are blowing this situation out of proportion even to the point where Non-BE's are getting worried about buying BE pets and a lot of BE's are worried about selling them. That's not "reporting a bug", thats rumor mongering.
Maybe sub-tenswill get nerfed. Thats fine, if the _devs_ think it's broken, it's their job to fix it. Ours is to make pets for people, not create fear of buying a BE pet...
Wheew!....I thought you were going to come find me at my desk and beat me about the head with my
Superman statue! 
I agree...only the Dev's truely know for sure what the real deal is. I don't want anyone here to get the idea that I am anti-BE, anti-CH, or anything of the sort. I love this game to pieces and like Thkallk1 said...this is a game and we are here to have fun. I hope this matter will be resolved sooner rather than later...and if it is supposed to be the way it is now...Great!!! That means I can make some pretty **edit** nice pets and use them to boot! If not...I hope they fix it so it is still fun and fair for everyone.
This thread is too long to read. I stopped in the middle once I read the below post:
meroc wrote:
And on a final note, 10k pets aren't "the all and end all", even if they do have 40% resists. If the pet isn't balanced (ie. it has to be able to hit hard and fast as well as take the damage with resist_and_ AR), it's not that useful on the high end planets. Have you ever actualy fought anything on Endor/Dathomir or have you only been there to collect DNA and run away if things got "hot"? If you'd actually been there to fight you'd know that a level 10Gnort with 1300HAM, even if it is effectively a level 13 one like you want, just won't cut it...
I had to comment on this. A 10k pet at cl10 and below is and will always be uber. You ask if I hunt on Endor/Dathomir, I have and still do for $$$ missions. These creatures including most nightsisters can be killed with little effort if the pet can last more than 30 secs. Let me explain: Flamesingle 2, Flamesingle1, flamecone1, flamecone2, pistolbleed1, then if its not dead from these stacked dots, about 8-10k damage per 5 secs, then I can use my Master Teras Kasi to hit the thing for 6k damage every 3 seconds. Now I'm not talkingabout killingJedi Masters. Not even the new uber boss Nightsister mob. I'm saying hunting would be a joke if I was given more than 30 secs with a 10k pet with 40% resists and if I was Master Commando and Teras Kasi.
But I see your point at the same time. You dont want to complain too much and start screaming fire because the devs will not just come in with a little water, they will come in with a Krayt foot stomping BE back to worthless. I remember when commandos asked the devs to fix there weapon so its not recognized as a mele weapon which killed any ranged fighter in seconds from 64m. Well they got a fix and then a stealth nerf which came in the form of a 2.5 mele modifier was given to all Commandos because they just wanted to be fair, in the end Commandos got the shaft. So yes I see your point, ask the devs to fix the inbalance but dont create hysteria because that will lead to a nerf only equaled to the one that just hit CH's pets this month. On another note, those who say there is nothing wrong with this are the real idiots. Its obvious the devs like to contradict themselves but not to the extent of a 10k hamm cl10 pet.
KasekZon Just a small attempt to add a little humour in this thread full of moral indignity. Glad someone got a larf out of it. Cant remember the movie the line came from though.
I guess here is my "difference " in opinion. People are using the words bug!, Exploit! and overbalanced interchangeably (as synonyms) when IMO they are not. To me a bug would be a mistake in programming, that directy allows the existance of a non intended element. for example due to a mistake in programming a designer misses a decimal and any tamed chuba has an to hit chance of 20 instead of .2 An exploit would be the malicious and intentional use of a bug. Overbalanced is just that. The system works the way it was designed, the calculations are all performing as designed, and then after its been tested to its full extent, they find their changes gave too much power to one aspect which has repercussions such as a massive influx of players created for that purpose.
So is it a bug? No, the system seems to be working as designed IMO
So is it an exploit? No, no one is maliciously using any bugs.
So is it overbalanced? Perhaps, perhaps not thats for the devs to say. Maybe they felt BE was underbalanced and have more ideas for adding balance to other professions such as DE's or crafters. Maybe the fact that it takes two professions (BE to make, MCH to tame) to supply an uber pet to a non ch person is balance enough. It only takes one to supply a droid. Maybe they dont feel its overbalanced but needs some tweaking in some fashion.
Im going to keep making the creatures and if you want you can consider it my way of showing how and to what extent, negatively and positively the ability to make the pets will affect the game. Ignoring the ability or hoping it goes away, or assuming you know what the devs plan, doesnt help the devs make a decision on it.
Killer, I won't quote, cause it'll get too long 
The point I'm trying to make is that Tal decided this is a bug, not a dev. A few other people got behind that and it's escalated. So far, no one official has said if this is a bug or not (maybe it is, maybe it isn't,that isn't my call. Itisn't Talscall either, it's Kels).
The fact that everyones hassling people that are selling BE pets that are "too good" shows things have gone too far on this issue. People are even worried about buying "normal" BE pets now. Tal accused some folk of exploiting bugged DNA, they responded that none of "that" DNA had gone anywhere near the template. Sonow peoplehave decided that the whole system is flawed somehow. Thats up to the devs to decide, not Tal and crew.
I'm not arguing that the "sub tens"should or shouldn't be nerfed. I'm arguing that it's the devs call to make, not ours, and anything else is rumor mongering that's having an adverse effect on our profession.
As to the fight, I was reffering to the so called "uber" pet:
No doubt one of your CL 23's could whip it solo as well, so how good is it then really?
It's actual HAM is 6k and it's not going to hit very much,very often or very hard. The only thing impressive about it is the health pool and the resist (which are very close to a post nerf Mountain Squill). The rest of it is pretty ordinary.
You know, this thread gave me an interesting idea.
What if:
The Devs did indead nerf our "sub tens". That'd leave room for the DE's to grab the "Ford" section of the market and we could be the "Rolls Royce" suppliers to the CH's.
That would seem to fit in in the scheme of things and not have two classes competing for the same groups of clients.
meroc wrote:
What exploit? Did you declare it so, or has an actual developer said this?
If you declaired it so, then who are you? You're name isn't colored, so I guess you know about as much as we do and guessing and expressing your opinion as a fact?
Benechi wrote:
meroc wrote:
Unfortunatly Tal I kinda agree with Duis (and I'm basically on your "side"). This has escalated into a crusade that will result in, not a fix, but an "overfix", taking in a lot more than what you've been asking for and possibly resulting in a return to the "old" days of the BE profession. Anything "powerful" or "too good" in the BE line will get looked at. Remember this, be careful what you wish for...
So, an overfix is the result of people asking the an exploit fix and not because of the people abusing the exploit? Think about it though, the people are asking for the exploit fix BECAUSE other people are abusing the exploit. If no one was abusing it, there wouldn't be a crusade.
Benechi
Correct. All I'm doing is offering my opinion that this is an exploit using Holos definition here...
"An exploit is a case where there is a game imbalance or bug that players discover and use to the extent that it starts having wider repercussions on the game as a whole.
For example--pistoleer being more or less powerful than carbineer might be an imbalance, but it's not an exploit. The HAM bar not updating is a bug, but it is not an exploit.
But an imbalance that lets you kill any creature in the game with little risk or a bug that lets you earn 100x the cash that you would normally be able to earn in one hour... those are exploits.
Now, I admit that this is a very fuzzy line. Sometime the word exploit gets tossed around a bit too liberally. It does NOT imply that those who use the tactic discovered are cheating, necessarily. Sometimes, the tactic is so egregiously out of whack that we can legitimately say, "Uh, come ON, you should have realized that was cheating." But often we cannot, as with the missions in droids--people thought that was completely legit. But then, people probably didn't see the wider implications of it and how much advantage it conferred on those who used the tactic."
-Raph Koster
Chief Creative Officer,
Sony Online Entertainment
In my opinion (gotta keep saying that) players being able to make 10K HAM, high KRpets that are CL 10 and under fit well into this definition. Maybe you and Diuscan offer some evidence that non-CH players being able to control pets that are the equivlent of CL 35+ wild pets will not have wider repercussions on the game as a whole.
Also, it doesn't have to be declared as an exploit by the devs to actuallybe an exploit. In many cases, the devs don't acknowledge exploits until the fix goes in. Evidence of this can be found in this dev quote here.
"We try to put everything in the patch notes, with one exception: exploits. And that's because the patch notes are often posted in advance, and we don't want people rushing off to do the exploits before they are fixed."
So, the hypothesis that something isn't an expoit until the devs declare that it is an exploit seems to be wrong, yes?
Benechi
DiusFidus wrote:
Darn...now I'm going to be wracking my brain trying to remember where that line came from! Was it one of the "Scary Movie" films? I seem to remeber it was a ditsy cheerleader type who said it. Arrg!!!...this is gonna bug me all day I know it!
I guess here is my "difference " in opinion. People are using the words bug!, Exploit! and overbalanced interchangeably (as synonyms) when IMO they are not. To me a bug would be a mistake in programming, that directy allows the existance of a non intended element. for example due to a mistake in programming a designer misses a decimal and any tamed chuba has an to hit chance of 20 instead of .2 An exploit would be the malicious and intentional use of a bug. Overbalanced is just that. The system works the way it was designed, the calculations are all performing as designed, and then after its been tested to its full extent, they find their changes gave too much power to one aspect which has repercussions such as a massive influx of players created for that purpose.
So is it a bug? No, the system seems to be working as designed IMO
I get what your saying hereand I have a few thought on this as well. If it is an "overbalance" and people use it to their advantage, couldn't that be considered and "expoit" as well? (not calling you or anyone and exploiter...just trying to see it from both sides) This would all be so much more clear if the Dev's would simply comment on the issue...Hopefully they will when they get back from vacation.
So is it an exploit? No, no one is maliciously using any bugs.
So is it overbalanced? Perhaps, perhaps not thats for the devs to say. Maybe they felt BE was underbalanced and have more ideas for adding balance to other professions such as DE's or crafters. Maybe the fact that it takes two professions (BE to make, MCH to tame) to supply an uber pet to a non ch person is balance enough. It only takes one to supply a droid. Maybe they dont feel its overbalanced but needs some tweaking in some fashion.
Im going to keep making the creatures and if you want you can consider it my way of showing how and to what extent, negatively and positively the ability to make the pets will affect the game. Ignoring the ability or hoping it goes away, or assuming you know what the devs plan, doesnt help the devs make a decision on it.
Ohhh thanks for reminding me of that Talth. I'd totally forgotten about the TC player that posted up about it being recognized as a bug.
I'm assuming the dev boards have been quiet for ya? Really a shame if they have. I was hoping the dev / correspondent boards would be a good tool for y'all to get quick information 