Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: seems we are not a real crafting profession in some chef eyes :(
FlereImsaho wrote:1.8m for 1000 BSN's, consists of meat, flora, schematic, factory time. A BE buys resources and pays 60cpu for meat, 6cpu on flora =1440cr per unit, from 1.8m a BE has made 400-500k as we have discussed above - this is the value/profit a BE has added if he has bought/harvested the resources. In my instance I have done all this (providing resources) and indirectly "saved" the BE time etc in the process. Why should I still pay the 400-500k the BE rightly charges for his time when providing the resources? I understand there is a missed opportunity for the BE to make 500k but that 500k is much more involved than what I'm proposing. It seems that the prevalent arguement from BE's is that Chefs shouldn't harvest there own meat but instead rely on BE's to manage it for them (at a fee) or sell it to the BE who will dictate prices for a component Chefs need. BE's with this attitude want to not only monopolise their schem production (fair enough) but infringe on others ability to harvest without the need to run there meat through a BE in a buy to re-sell arrangement.I don't want free schems, I want to pay a fair price for someones time. It's true tailors don't charge inordinate prices for schems and Ive never heard of an AS do it but for some reason some BE's act affronted at the suggestion alone.The game mechanics dictate crafting prof's interact so why the resentment here?
BE pays 1m credits for resoruces required for 1000 BSNs. He then makes a schem, puts it in his factory and later out pops 40 crates of BSN. He then sells these to the Chef for 1.5m. Net cost 1.5m.
Chefs pay 1m credits for resources required for 1000 BSNs. He then takes it to the BE who makes a schem for 1000 BSNs. He then asks for 500k because for the fact that he had to invest a lot of time grinding up to Master BE and because he does not want to undersell the additives market by giving away cheap schems. The Chef takes the schem and puts it in his factory and later out pops 40 crates of BSN. He then uses them for food and drink etc. Net cost: 1.5m minus factory fees.
Same numbers. Only difference is that the chef has to pay for the factory which, quite frankly, is totally neglible. To deny that this isn't fair on the BE is totally ludicris. To deny this is to deny logic - If A = B then A and B are identical. We get resentmen because there are chefs who don't treat us as humans, but treat us as schematic monkeys. This is an insult and dehumanising. ... (to an extreme
)Message Edited by Zadokk on 03-18-2005 11:59 PM
Message Edited by ArthurDentOnBria on 03-18-2005 05:02 PM
ArthurDentOnBria wrote:
*a question
Question for the BE's though: we have an issue that many of you voted for as a top issue, that of "schematic monkeys". When we've spoken of this topic before, the responses were very different from what I'm hearing now. Does this mean that you are now much more comfortable with this as your role in the game, and that this is no longer an issue for you? Help me out, I'm confused, lol.
I believe it is an issue. Obviously it is an issue. I would say the issue is impacted by the value of the schematic not the fact that they are tradable.
My posts on the topic are purely from an economics point of view. I don't advocate nor do I condemn the sale of schematics. The reality is, schematics are tradable. They always have been. Bio-engineers are not the only profession that trades in schematics either. Doctors do it for sub-components. Tailors do it for trim. Bio-engineers do it for tissues.
To Flere's point regarding the fact that they harvested (or purchase) the resources for the chef tissues does, in no way, devalue the schematic. I could hop to the South Coronet Mall (basically Super Walmart on Naritus) buy the meat and flora I need which takes about 10 minutes tops, fly back home, run off a schematic which you say takes one minute, pop that schematic in my factory and 3.5 days later out comes 40 crates. I sell those crates and make 500K profit. The chef does the same thing except they come to me and ask for a schematic. What have they saved me? 3.5 days of factory time and 10 minutes of loading into the game during the hops from one planet to another. As I said before the factory time is irrelevant. The 3.5 days is there regardless who does the run. Not to mention the fact I don't have to just sit by my factory for 3.5 days. I am very free to play the game while those tissues cook.
Up to now I've been a pure economist. Now I must take issue. It iswith the comment "infringe on others ability to harvest without the need to run there (their) meat through a BE in a buy to re-sell arrangement." This would imply exactly what Arthur brought up, that the chef does not need a BE. All the chef needs is a schematic. Well I have this simple statement of fact. There is no infringement. The chef is VERY free to pick up BE themselves and craft their own schematics. There is no monopoly either because of that simple fact.
See, I can sell you a schematic for 100K. You craft the tissues and turn right around and sell them to another chef, making 400K profit (or more). You come right back to me and buy another cheap schematic and do the same thing again. You have indeed turned me into a schematic monkey and you have become a BE wholesaler without spending a single skill point. Why in the world would you feel the lion share of profits should go to you when, without the BE, you would not be able to make a thing? The BE on the other hand has the skills and the means to go it alone, completely without your assistance. Now do you understand the value of the schematic?
Simple questions; what would you charge for a schematic of brandy if I provided everything, knowing full well how much the end product is worth. Also, that schematic creates direct competition with your own sales. What if I come to you asking for a schematic every two days? I don't need or want to run my materials through you. All I want is a continuous supply of schematics. Something to think about.
FlereImsaho wrote:
Besides you guys are Bio Engineers. How many BE's have you all dealt with in RL? BE's research and sell the results.They don't retail directly (pls no exceptions to prove the rule) - SWG BE's are supposed to be "schematic monkeys" - sell the fruits of your labour (schematics) at a reasonable price instead of trying to funnel meat in and out of your prof. 100k per schem, I have 2mins work for someone to make 300k - name another prof that can turn their nose up at that?
Dehumanising, BEhumanised that's how I feel.
The guy that started this was paying 60cpu for the current Yavin carnivore which hits 88 BNS and selling a full run at 1.8m. 20 units an item is 1.2m, leaving 600k for other costs and profit - a very fair price. However I cannot afford that investment. ( I have recently purchased tapes to compete as a 12pt Chef so I'm not without support, but this is not a running expense and can be re-sold). Schematics for a Chef are a running expense and I will purchase completebio's at price and quality above, I would have preferred using Lianifen as he is good at what he does but alas.....best ban me from your vendor cos when I have creds free I will try n' purchase there
i'm not selling only full runs like i said u in game .. other new chef come and buy some crates to start, why not u ?
btw, as u said schem trade happend in game andi know that .. but if u think about it u will see othercrafter trade schem mostly for their sub-componants (ABEC,ALS or ACRDM for docs) here u ask for a shem of our final product. that's a big difference i think.
and my price is 2.2m per full runs of BSN 88 .. 60 cpu for meat, 6 cpu for the flora .. 1.2m + 360k, add factory cost (15 factories), time spend on crafting (1h to make 20schems cause of fails, moderate and other bad success). yes that is around 400-500k profit per bag.
edit: i forgot to say thks for all the reply, i see i'm not alone in this situation 
Message Edited by hiliofen on 03-18-2005 05:19 PM
To me, that investment means the profit I would have made by converting those raw resources into tissues.
I have issues with someone who makes 70 schems for 100k however. This is a gross devaluation of the BEs investment, and tbh I don't see why people would do it...
A few posts back Arthur said something along the lines of it taking away a reason for being a BE...I'd say that being a BE doesn't mean I buy/harvest resources or I run factories...That has nothing to do with BE...The part that makes a BE a BE is from the point I open my crafting tool and select a BE schematic to the point I finish the crafting session. all the rest is bagage associated with any crafting profession. Even the bits that are exclusively BE follow the same procedures as those that aren't exclusively BE.
You can't say that you are depriving people of sales either, as how many of us can actually keep a vendor stocked without inflating our prices to curb demand? I know I couldn't keep up, and I was a pretty big Chef seller.
If tissues were readily available then there wouldn't be a need to produce schematics as Chefs would know that they could easily get tissues whenever they wanted.
Mereset wrote:
Am 1 of the BE's that goes tru the trouble to get the resources to sell tisues and frankly the schematic sellers in my opinion ruins the market for us.
I rather gather the resources to make them keeps me occupied and true to my profession but if your after making creds keep doing soon they will have enough product in their inventory so they wont need you no more.
I appreciate this comment even though I'm not sure I understand the mindset. I also collect my own resources. I can count the number of times I've sold schematics on three fingers and not use up all of them.
The difference between me and the quoted player is that I don't agree selling schematics ruins the market for us, as simply stated. I'm missing something so I must ask, how is the market ruined by schematic sellers?
I would rather tromp through the wilds chasing animals than anything else. It never dawned on me that when I bought the game, wanting to be a bio-engineer, that I'd be crafting tissues for chefs. I thought I'd be making clones. That's what I call being true to my profession. The point is everyone has a differring perspective of how the game should be played.
The concept of creating so much product a chef won't need us anymore is flawed. A chef goes through tissues faster than a BE can craft them. You could sell 70 schematics to a chef or you could sell 70 full runs of tissues to a chef. It makes no difference. Eventually the chef will churn through them and will be knocking on your door again. Besides, if you're in the game for credits you should be the chef, not the BE.
Spazzers wrote:
Mereset wrote:
Am 1 of the BE's that goes tru the trouble to get the resources to sell tisues and frankly the schematic sellers in my opinion ruins the market for us.
I rather gather the resources to make them keeps me occupied and true to my profession but if your after making creds keep doing soon they will have enough product in their inventory so they wont need you no more.I appreciate this comment even though I'm not sure I understand the mindset. I also collect my own resources. I can count the number of times I've sold schematics on three fingers and not use up all of them.
The difference between me and the quoted player is that I don't agree selling schematics ruins the market for us, as simply stated. I'm missing something so I must ask, how is the market ruined by schematic sellers?
I would rather tromp through the wilds chasing animals than anything else. It never dawned on me that when I bought the game, wanting to be a bio-engineer, that I'd be crafting tissues for chefs. I thought I'd be making clones. That's what I call being true to my profession. The point is everyone has a differring perspective of how the game should be played.
The concept of creating so much product a chef won't need us anymore is flawed. A chef goes through tissues faster than a BE can craft them. You could sell 70 schematics to a chef or you could sell 70 full runs of tissues to a chef. It makes no difference. Eventually the chef will churn through them and will be knocking on your door again. Besides, if you're in the game for credits you should be the chef, not the BE.
I agree with you that schematic selling doesn't destroy the market...its the value that the BE places on them that does. When someone sells a schematic, the meat and flora come from somewhere, they don't just appear from thin air. This means that no matter who has the resources, be they Chef or BE, the resources are a tangible cost to the party who owns them.
In a normal situation, a BE takes the tangible cost of the resources they use, and adds in a profit margin for their time and effort, and then sells the final product. Taking away the resources, all you have is the time and effort on behalf of the BE...ie a schematic, as the rest is a tangible cost.
Where a market can be destroyed is that a BE may take his time to be 5k for a schematic...ie 5k profit off a run. This is the equivalent of a BE buying resources and making a run for 5k profit. It doesnt screw people over by taking the job away from them as the resources have been collected by someone, again, they don't just appear, it screws them because one BE values his time at a much lower amount than other BEs, and that person can outproduce the rest of the BEs.
If a BE sells for his profit margin, then there is no effect on the market as no matter who buys the resources, they are a cost to the Chef.
If I made runs for 5k profit, I would be destorying the market in the exact same way that someone selling schematics for 5k would. They both use the same resources, they both have the same profit margin. The only difference is who pays the ranger who harvested the resources.