Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: seems we are not a real crafting profession in some chef eyes :(
The Chef buys the meat we cant afford from the Ranger so the Ranger still gets his pay.
The Chef still has to pay the same amount as he would of, if he hadn't bought the meat from the Ranger and instead bought the additives from us.
The BE still gets the same profit margin and gets less hassle for having to look after factories, dealing with Rangers.
Who doesn't win?
The guy who sells tissues loses. The guy who went through the trouble of buying the meat, surveying for the flora, running his harvesters, and stocking his vendor, only to see a competitor make the same profit with no effort expended. The fact that this schematic seller could have made the tissues is of little consolation, the fact is that he didn't. So the guy that bothered to make the tissues then has to ask himself why he even bothered with them, and next time, maybe he won't, which causes further degredation of the profession, making the profession more and more obsolete.
The thing about buying/selling/giving away schematics is that it bypasses so many of the game's systems. One's ability to produce schematics is almost unlimited. One could literally supply an entire server of chefs with additives in a single evening by doing schematics. To me whether you charge nothing or you charge 5k or 500k doesn't really make a whole lot of difference. Either way you are circumventing the profession's skill tree, and discouraging peoplefrom buying products.
Zadokk wrote:
I don't see a problem with charging the 500k for schematics because then everyone is happy.
The Chef buys the meat we cant afford from the Ranger so the Ranger still gets his pay.
The Chef still has to pay the same amount as he would of, if he hadn't bought the meat from the Ranger and instead bought the additives from us.
The BE still gets the same profit margin and gets less hassle for having to look after factories, dealing with Rangers.
Who doesn't win?
Message Edited by ArthurDentOnBria on 03-18-2005 11:26 AM
ArthurDentOnBria wrote:
The guy who sells tissues loses. The thing about buying/selling/giving away schematics is that it bypasses so many of the game's systems. One's ability to produce schematics is almost unlimited. One could literally supply an entire server of chefs with additives in a single evening by doing schematics. To me whether you charge nothing or you charge 5k or 500k doesn't really make a whole lot of difference. Either way you are circumventing the profession's skill tree, and discouraging peoplefrom buying products.
I disagree with this.
The BE that sold the schematic could just as easily told the chef to trade all the meat and flora to him and crafted the tissues himself and sold the lot back to the chef at 500K. What's the difference? The meat and flora already belonged to the chef. It doesn't make sense to charge the chef 1.5 mil for the tissues. The chef pays for the resources twice.
Regardless, to say I'm taking business away from another BE simply doesn't apply.This is like saying my crafting animals and selling them is taking business away from another BE. Of course it is. That's clear competition.
To be honest it would have been foolish for the chef to purchase the schematic at 500K when they could go to this other BE and buy a finished product.The chef still has to spend 3.5 days cooking up tissues from the schematic. The only real difference of buying a full run versus buying a schematic is who actually does the crafting. That's all. The profit margin still goes to the BE.
I also disagree that a game system is being bypassed. Does it make any difference to a game system who actually places a schematic in a factory and turns it on? Is it better that a player with a BE badge flick the factory button versus any other player? It isn't like selling a schematic automatically makes tissues materialize. The game system doesn't change.
I rather gather the resources to make them keeps me occupied and true to my profession but if your after making creds keep doing soon they will have enough product in their inventory so they wont need you no more.
Meplorium wrote:
As a BE that picked up chef right before the chef revamp, I view the whole process from tissue to end product as one continued crafting process, not two seperate ones. I can see the problems for BEs that didn't pick up chef and chefs that didn't pick up BE. The problem really is the two professions are currentlyOne Profession.
Chefs can't make anything without that BE additive save furniture food. BEs don't have a pet market, tailor tissues are pretty much a give away (what tailor has a ton ofmoney to throw around) so that leaves bascially chef tissues for BEs.
BE would be much better off if BE pets were a desired product. The only ones that are being the uber CL10s that have a lot of problems. Many CHs turn their noses up at a tanked pet (those CL10s have damaged that relationship) and feel taming is what their profession is all about. Even if you find a CH that likes tanked pets, there isn't much for them to do with the pet other than spam tricks for a grinding medic. So there just isn't a market there.
That leaves BE basically as a schematic monkey in the food making processes. BTW this is not the chefs fault. Customers want the best, so food by default needs addtives. BE has no other market due to the CH nerfand CHs hating BEs for those CL10s. That leaves BE by default part of the chef profession.
Theproblem here is that mostnew chefs don't understand this. The profession is BE/Chef, not justChef.Once they figureout they need that BE they get upset and blame the BE. So they 'have to deal' with this BE person.So now the new chef hates BEs as much as the CHs do.
BEs basically can't win, unless they are just a schematic monkey for a well know chef. Then there isn't a problem.I am not saying that isright or even a good thing. Just pointing outthe reality of the situation.
That's why Mep, I think it would be cool if the devs could, at least, test an idea where although a additive will significantly effect the mod it's designed too, but it will also have a negative effect on the food. This would make the chef game more challenging (i.e. not bungling all exp points into one line) and also perhaps make them think twice as to whether they desire to use it or not. For instance, Bio-Engineered food could upset the stomach more frequently resulting in a rooted emote of puking for 5-10 seconds; and perhaps even negatively effecting some of the other stats on the food e.g. BSNs increase the potency but also increase the stomach filling, reduce charges, buff time etc.
......or is that 
Anyways, everyone is trying to get on, make creds, enjoy the game - We all have this in common and pursue it as we see fit until enlightened otherwise if it is problematic. I'm not out to take advantage of anyone and am willing to pay someone for the time invested in any venture I will benefit from. Making and sharing schems is probably a large part of guild mechanics and is promoted as mutually beneficial or at least as a benefit to the guild members. I'm not in a guild per se and I don't have a BE friend, or a tailor friend for that matter. I must make contacts/deals to make a success of Chef otherwise I can't craft.
To propose 400k for 1mins work because a BE would have made that if he had supplied resources and run it in a factory and then sold it is a bit harsh I feel. If a tailor hit me with this proposition I am 800k down on a run of brandy before I have anything tangible to sell. If I have max resources for a schem I can make 40 crates at 125k ea = 5m. Lets say I spend 6cpu on good resources to have a marketable product =240cr/unit + I have to run crates of alcohol = 100cr/unit approx + run crates of casks = 100cr. I will make 3m or so when I have sold the full run. To make this 3m I have spent hours trying to mine/buy resources, a few days getting the meat together,perhaps reduced prices to sell my produce through quicker, advertised, made deliveries, maintained factories etc.
Where is the balance? I want a fair price to buy schems at - a fair price measured through opportunity cost not the notion - "well I can make 500k from you if I put it all together and then sell it to you kinda deal" - cos as a previous poster says the meat didn't just pop into my inventory, and neither did the fruits etc - it cost me time and effort to put a run together (my job as Chef)
As for saving the Chef from inconvenience by just selling him a schem at 400k instead of insisting in a resource trade and buy back is plain silly - the BE has saved himself the majority of admin and has made as much as he would have if he had done all the work which in fact I have done.
Simply, if a BE can buy the resources and run bio's and make 500k for doing so, when I provide all the resources and save him the time, whats wrong with making a nice 100k per schem? Overcharging profs that require the components is exploiting people to maintain a monopoly, the game mechanics are quite clearly set up to avoid this.
Zadokk wrote:
That's why Mep, I think it would be cool if the devs could, at least, test an idea where although a additive will significantly effect the mod it's designed too, but it will also have a negative effect on the food. This would make the chef game more challenging (i.e. not bungling all exp points into one line) and also perhaps make them think twice as to whether they desire to use it or not. For instance, Bio-Engineered food could upset the stomach more frequently resulting in a rooted emote of puking for 5-10 seconds; and perhaps even negatively effecting some of the other stats on the food e.g. BSNs increase the potency but also increase the stomach filling, reduce charges, buff time etc.
Meplorium wrote:
Don't you think at this point in time that would further devaluate BE as a profession?
I think CH needs a big boost to make that a viable profession once again and BE pets to be more interesting and desirable themselves. Adding more items to BE and making what we can already make more desirable is key. The chef additives work well, make the other parts of the profession work well so it isn't all about chef additives. Then BE and Chef can seperate as a profession, at least on the BE side. Chef itself would still be dependant in BE of course. I am not sure how to get around that without nerfing BE tissues, which I am not in favor of. That would ultimately cheapen food, which I suppose some people would like, but not too many chefs.
Mep, one "problem" (from some points of view) with tissues is that there is no trade off. Any enhanced food is unquestionably better than an un-enhanced version.Krayt tissues offer the same type of increase, but that's a loot item, so having the enhancement boils down to being able to kill a Krayt + luck. Advancedarmor segments also provide this, but thoserequire much more specific (and rarer spawning) resources, and are within the same profession. Food tissues are a craftable item, with generic resources (at least for nutrients, which give the best bang-for-the-buck anyway), made by a non-chef profession.
The only drawback to the customer of enhanced vs. unenhanced is the price. And since it's not too hard to earn credits in the game, they run 5-10 easy missions to make up the difference, then buy a crateof enhanced brandy that'll last them a month.
When the chef revamp hit, the tissue "requirement" was a major point of contention between chefs and BEs. Quite a few chefs quit over it. Flame wars were started. The seas boiled, rivers turned to blood, earthquakes, volcanos, the dead rising from their graves, human sacrifice, cats and dogs living together....mass hysteria!
....Ahem... Maybe calling it a disaster of "biblical" proportions is overreacting a bit. 
Anyways, I feel that if non-enhanced food had a viable, desirable use (other than as cheap buffs for newbies), then a lot of the pressure being put onto BEs would lessen. The simplest way (although IMO the wrong way) is to simply nerf the power of tissues. Spending 125k for a crate of +410 brandy vs. 50k for +220 is almost a no-brainer, but what if enhanced brandy was only +300?
Of course, take that too far and the tissue bonus isn't worth their resource cost, let alone adding a profit for the BE. That may turn enhanced food into PvP only (where every little edge counts).
The option put forth by Zadokk has always appealed to me. Give each type of tissue a bonus and a negative. +87 Nutrition / -12 Flavor BSNs, for example. Unenhanced Brandy: +220 / 45m, enhanced: +410 / 35m (with the same Nutrition/Flavor experimentation by the chef). You could give tissues two experimentation categories (one increases the bonus, the other decreases the negative), giving BEs more options when crafting the item. Or keep the single bar currently used, and as the bonus increases, so does the negative. This would make "low bonus" tissues (from non-Master BE, or with cheaper lower qualityresources) more marketable, since the drawback would also be lower.
btw, sci - thanks for your input
FlereImsaho wrote:
...
Where is the balance? I want a fair price to buy schems at - a fair price measured through opportunity cost not the notion - "well I can make 500k from you if I put it all together and then sell it to you kinda deal" - cos as a previous poster says the meat didn't just pop into my inventory, and neither did the fruits etc - it cost me time and effort to put a run together (my job as Chef)
As for saving the Chef from inconvenience by just selling him a schem at 400k instead of insisting in a resource trade and buy back is plain silly - the BE has saved himself the majority of admin and has made as much as he would have if he had done all the work which in fact I have done.
Simply, if a BE can buy the resources and run bio's and make 500k for doing so, when I provide all the resources and save him the time, whats wrong with making a nice 100k per schem? Overcharging profs that require the components is exploiting people to maintain a monopoly, the game mechanics are quite clearly set up to avoid this.
FlereImsaho wrote:
*hack
To propose 400k for 1mins work because a BE would have made that if he had supplied resources and run it in a factory and then sold it is a bit harsh I feel. If a tailor hit me with this proposition I am 800k down on a run of brandy before I have anything tangible to sell. If I have max resources for a schem I can make 40 crates at 125k ea = 5m. Lets say I spend 6cpu on good resources to have a marketable product =240cr/unit + I have to run crates of alcohol = 100cr/unit approx + run crates of casks = 100cr. I will make 3m or so when I have sold the full run. To make this 3m I have spent hours trying to mine/buy resources, a few days getting the meat together,perhaps reduced prices to sell my produce through quicker, advertised, made deliveries, maintained factories etc.
*slash
The error in your logic = 1 minutes work plus a ton of skill points and hours of learning to master an elite profession.
You make 40 crates of brandy that you sell for 125K each. Had you purchased a full run of finished BE tissues you would pay, for the sake of argument, 1.5 million credits for tissues. Now you go out and collect your own resources and ask a BE for a schematic. He/she charges you 500K for that schematic. The end cost of your tissues is still 1.5 million credits. Nothing has changed in the cost for you. You have accepted the burden of crafting the tissues when you asked for the schematic. If you didn't want to craft the tissues you should be shopping for completed tissues.
Also, the time involved in crafting is irrelevant. If you craft the tissues it takes 3.5 days. If the BE crafts the tissues it still takes 3.5 days. Nothing has changed. The only variable is who actually does the crafting.
The schematic is as important, or more so, as the resources used to craft the finished goods. I would argue that the schematic is more valuable than any other component of the finished good. Without the schematic the meat is just a bunch of meat.
Would you like to re-evaluate the price you place on that 1 minute a BE spends now?