Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: To the Devs on ill legit Non CH pets...
Joilhath
Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:50 am
#40
Nope no offense taken just curious if you were refering to me. If the best argument you have against making these pets is that not worth my time or effort really.
Bracci
Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:05 pm
#41
Ykai wrote:Darn thing deleted my response......here it is again....If SOE can not get to fixing the problem, what is keeping the repectable people of the BE community from not banding together and making an oath to not make any CL-10 pet over a certain HAM and resistance stat? I mean even if not everyone knows about this forum string or the stats, a majority do, and it will keep us from getting a bad name from uneducated people who don't do there homework.We could work out some details on acceptable levels and stick to it for LVL-10's.Thoughts?As a fellow forum and BE said (Sorry for not remembering your name), and it is so true and respectable to say....
"Play with Honor"
I personally only know of 3 other BEs on my server. I'm sure there is more, and I'm sure some aren't "respectable". There is no way for us to prevent people who don't read the forums from not giving us the "bad name" that you speak of.
Akelan
Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:05 pm
#42
Oh gods, do we have to go through this again?
These pets are more powerful than expected by the developers when creating the system. THEY HAVE CLEARLY STATED WE ARE NOT EXPLOITING A BUG TO MAKE THEM, simply that we are using the system to get results beyond their initial expectations and testing results, and that at some point they will modify the system to prevent this pevel of pet from being possible, which I welcome.
I take VERY strong exception to the description of these as exploited or bugged; we are not doing anything outside the normal BE crafting to create these, whatever the initial expectations of the system were hoped to be, and to describe them this way shifts the "blame" to players that are following the same practices that every other BE in the game does, and simply achieving better than expected results from the combinations used instead of leaving it squarely on as yet un-fixed problems with the crafting system itself. A CL1 or 0 Rancor is "bugged"; it does not represent or in any way exist within the framework of what we are given to work with, and the data used is outside the accepted system parameters and design. As much as we may think the 10K CL 10 pets are not appropriate in the game, they are not the result of anything but exceptional work within the crafting system.
I agree that these pets should not be what we are able to create, and that they have an effect on the game that is both deleterious and significant, and I have posted the particulars behind this opinion enough to make it pretty clear how I stand on them. I do not, however, feel that the people that pushed to find the boundaries of the crafting system we were given have somehow earned the blame for the errors in coding and design that made these pets possible, and I feel it does the BE community a severe injustice to describe us as to blame. SOE's developers made a mistake in the breadth of the parameters we are working within. Mistakes happen, and in such a complex system, tuning the results is a normal part of the process, no matter how much forethought went or did not go into the initial creation; and fixing those issues is an ongoing, and sometimes painful, process, but it is an accepted part of the lifecycle of these programs, as it is in nearly any first-run programming effort. To blame the players for using what they were given, flawed though we may agree it to be, to do their best within the given possibilities is neither appropriate, nor the way to get the problems resolved.
LLan
Message Edited by Akelan on 06-16-2004 02:14 PM
Message Edited by Akelan on 06-16-2004 02:16 PM
Akelan
Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:19 pm
#43
I think if you check the most recent reply on these pets from the developers, you will see them state that these are not the result of an exploit.
The issue, however, is that describing the BE community as responsible for their existance if simply shifting the blame for an error in the development from the game to the customer, and that is NOT where the responsibility for this issue resides.
LLan
NancyJ
Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:38 pm
#44
Thats not what they said at all - they have said MANY MANY times that the pet crafting and CL calculation is BUGGED - yes they have used this word.
How often do we have to go through this?
Keldarin said that he doesnt consider making these pets 'cheating' however that doesnt change the fact that the system is bugged and we know it to be bugged. By taking advantage of those bugs we are in the purest sense of the word - exploiting.
As I explained before there is a difference between exploting bugs or oversights in the games design and using an 'exploit' that will get you banned.
Keeping vendors without having the skills to use them is technically speaking 'exploiting' an oversight in the system design. You wont get banned for it but its still an exploit.
How often do we have to go through this?
Keldarin said that he doesnt consider making these pets 'cheating' however that doesnt change the fact that the system is bugged and we know it to be bugged. By taking advantage of those bugs we are in the purest sense of the word - exploiting.
As I explained before there is a difference between exploting bugs or oversights in the games design and using an 'exploit' that will get you banned.
Keeping vendors without having the skills to use them is technically speaking 'exploiting' an oversight in the system design. You wont get banned for it but its still an exploit.
JayceMilam
Wed Jun 16, 2004 3:37 pm
#46
Who cares ifthey arelabeledas exploits or not. Bottom line is they were never intended to be in the game PERIOD. And making them only hurts our profession and the game overall. You can rationalize it anyway you like. "Oh there are powerful weapons in the game, so I'll make Powerful pets." "I am not doign anything the game doesn't allow me to do, so it isn't wrong." "Other BE's make them so I am forced to make them to keep up with the Jones's" WHATEVER!!!! I do not care what your excuses are. I have no respect for a BE who makes a pet the devs have explicitly said is not supposed to be made and shouldn't be legal. Ever heard the expression; excuses are like a$$holes, we all have them and they all stink. How about two wrongs don't make a right. If you are greedy enough, moronic enough or just don't care and make these pets anyway. Go right ahead I certainly can't stop you, but don't expect me to have an ounce of respect for you. Don't expect me to buy into your excuses of using the "normal BE crafting process" or any of your other lame rationalizations.
Vezek
ArthurDentOnBria
Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:16 pm
#48
LOL, and this folks is why I'm not in the non-ch pet business.
I swear, we've been over and over this before, and it's the exact same things being said by the exact same people. Perhaps two weeks from now we can save ourselves the time and effort and just bump this thread again rather than posting it again "from scratch".
GMANHNC
Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:46 pm
#49
I do agree with Llan on this one, I don't beleive he makes these, he is simply saying that if someone didn't know better i.e. no one said "Hey you can't do that." then they would simply craft just as they always do, but in this case make a frickin awsome pet that shouldn't be. Just as you all first did before you put thought into it and said I think this is unbalancing. He is not arguing wether it is right or wrong, he is simply saying give credit where credit is due, he is not supporting these to be in production. (in this case it's give blame where blame is due)
In this Case, the seller obviously knew what he was doing by the price. As should the buyer had some realization that something was wrong by the price.
In the case at hand this guy is a cheater, becuse it is obvious he knew the price of a rare/exploit creature. But what if you came to my vendor and saw a ton of these for $6k each.
Llan if I am wrong on this you are on your own buddy, cause if this isn't what you mean, you might be one of those Cornet Spamers Selling these for $200k/ pet.
In this Case, the seller obviously knew what he was doing by the price. As should the buyer had some realization that something was wrong by the price.
In the case at hand this guy is a cheater, becuse it is obvious he knew the price of a rare/exploit creature. But what if you came to my vendor and saw a ton of these for $6k each.
Llan if I am wrong on this you are on your own buddy, cause if this isn't what you mean, you might be one of those Cornet Spamers Selling these for $200k/ pet.
Message Edited by GMANHNC on 06-17-2004 12:17 PM
JarenJade
Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:15 pm
#50
I agree with Akelanon this one too.It will be fixed, though not soon. The dev's are not making this a priority, that should say something to you.
I think if someone chooses to make these pets it's their own choice. They are not difficult to make. If they sell them with the disclaimer "these will be nerfed", buyer beware. I have no issue selling them. I always sell them with this disclaimer, and the buyers are understanding.
Akelan
Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:16 pm
#51
So what you are saying is that the developers, or the management team of SOE running the game, are saying it is the players fault that thse pets exist, even though they wrote the code that makes them possible, and did not test is adequately enough to determine that the system allows for things they don't like.
To be honest, that leaves me disgusted, both with the idea that developers could see it as the players fault, and that our supposed representative to them could agree with that point of view. To go to that length to avoid admitting that the limits established on the crafting possibilities are too high simply amazes me, despite SOE's long history of adversarial customer service towards the gaming community.
There's a difference between using something that is clearly not intended, such as the "repair your vehicle at light speed" bug or the "drop the skills and keep the vendors" bug, both of which you will find me in strong favor of fixing, and doing what we are told we are supposed to do; then being told we have cheated because we do it well. Change the rules, certainly. But accuse those who follow the rules of exploiting? Thank you, no.
LLan
Kevm
Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:02 pm
#52
Akelan wrote:
So what you are saying is that the developers, or the management team of SOE running the game, are saying it is the players fault that thse pets exist, even though they wrote the code that makes them possible, and did not test is adequately enough to determine that the system allows for things they don't like.
To be honest, that leaves me disgusted, both with the idea that developers could see it as the players fault, and that our supposed representative to them could agree with that point of view. To go to that length to avoid admitting that the limits established on the crafting possibilities are too high simply amazes me, despite SOE's long history of adversarial customer service towards the gaming community.
There's a difference between using something that is clearly not intended, such as the "repair your vehicle at light speed" bug or the "drop the skills and keep the vendors" bug, both of which you will find me in strong favor of fixing, and doing what we are told we are supposed to do; then being told we have cheated because we do it well. Change the rules, certainly. But accuse those who follow the rules of exploiting? Thank you, no.
LLan
Please show me where the Devs have said its the players fualt for these pets? Or that we are cheating?
You won't find it of course, since they've said they do not consider the BE's making these pets cheaters.