Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: To the Devs on ill legit Non CH pets...
Akelan
Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:15 pm
#53
Kevm, that response was directed at our correspondent, and the former correspondent who is weighing in on the same subject. Neither of them seem to have a good grasp of the seriousness of the terms they are using.
EXPLOITING has a serious meaning in the MMORPG community. No serious high-end clan, in any game or across multiple games, will accept a member who has a history of exploiting, because of the severity with which high-level clans are penalized for doing so. To label the players that are following the rules as currently established with the same terms that people are banned from games, or even from an entire line published by a company, is not something to be taken lightly.
I have belonged to two such clans, and I am playing SWG as something of a break while some of the next generation of games we intend to try are being developed, and we decide where to re-form. To use a bug that warps a player past a challenge that is difficult to master in order to get at the juicy loot beyond it is exploiting. To use a third-party program to track movements or otherwise interpret and parse real-time data from the game to provide information not normally available to the player is exploiting. To do anything which takes a player out of the normal risk/reward, in-game actions or available information stream (other than referencing fixed information previously recorded, such as accessing a web site for locations, maps or dna stats for example) is unacceptable to the type of player we recruit.
To apply the same terms to someone following the same in-game mechanicsas any other player of the class simply based on the quality of the result they are able to achieve, and to then blame those players for the problems' existance, is something that no member of such a community would ever accept; especially from someone that is supposed to help represent our needs as well as our findings to the developers and convey their responses to us. To play a BE in SWG and make pets that approach the limits of the system as designed is not exploiting, whether those results wereanticipated by the developers or not. To descibe those results as exploiting is a serious accusation, that our community does not deserve.
LLan
Kevm
Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:05 pm
#54
Akelan wrote:
To play a BE in SWG and make pets that approach the limits of the system as designed is not exploiting, whether those results wereanticipated by the developers or not. To descibe those results as exploiting is a serious accusation, that our community does not deserve.
That's the whole point tho now isn't it. The system is not operating as it was designed. Its bugged, and therefore not operating as designed. The devs have said they will not call anyone a 'cheater' who uses the bug to their advantage, to make things not normally intended by the system. If you notice, that's also pretty much the definition of the term 'exploit'. The devs have have just said they wont ban anyone for doing it, and that all such pets will be adjusted in the future.
You may not consider it an exploit, that's fine. You may not consider it wrong. That's fine too. The fact is, anyone who reads these boards know the devs do not intend for these beasts to exists. Everyone who reads these boards know they are taking advantage of the bugs in the system. No terminology used by the Correspondent, the Ex-Correspondent, you, or myself will change these facts.
Its up to your own morallity as to whether or not you chose to do the same, and then sell these 'to be nerfed' pets to your customers.
I have yet to see Tal or NancyJ, 'blame' anyone (let alone a player) for the existance of these pets. They have stated that they think the making of these pets are 'wrong',just as we all have the right to state our opinions on that subject.
Edit: On an added note, I think there is 1 principle reason why the Devs have stated they will not accuse anyone of cheating for making these pets, The reason is because there is no way we can know exactly where the lineis between what the Devs expected at this CL, and what exceeds this level. They have stated they will not provide the formula for what they think a CL 10 should be. Because of this, that line between 'good' CL 10 and 'bad' CL 10 is instead a huge, bug, blurry, gray area.
This is nothing like the Smuggler slicing exploit where it was clearly understood a weapon was not supposed to be sliced more than once, and you had to go out of your way to exploit that bug. This is alsonot like any of the dupe bugs, where you had to take specific steps to 'create' something for nothing.
If someone takes a bunch of DNA and 1st gens a CL 10 pet that is stronger than the devs expected then that player has created a pet that is the result of a bug. If a BE multi-gens a clone, to create a pet with huge HAM and resists, that the BE knows is only possible because of the bug inthe system, and knows this is not intended by the Devs, then yes, that a text book definition of 'exploiting' a bug. The only difference between this and the multi-slice or dupe exploits is the fact that 1) we aren't doing anything out of the ordinary for our profession and 2) the devs have not specifically defined what is a 'legal' CL 10 pet. That is why they are not termed 'cheaters'
Once again this is my opinion, and nobody else is required to agree.
Message Edited by Kevm on 06-16-2004 10:23 PM
NancyJ
Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:37 pm
#55
Ok, this is the LAST time I am going to go through this.
Exploit (noun) to take advantage of
Making and selling pets that are the result of a bug is exploiting the bug - you are taking advantage of a bug in the system to financially gain from it.
We know specifically that these pets are bugged.
HOWEVER neither myself nor Talthazaar nor the developers has *EVER* blamed anyone for making them. We have never said that is you fault. I have specifically asked about their opinions and they have said and you know it has been said because its been quoted enough times Akelan, that the devs are not calling anyone cheaters for making these.
Yes there are probably quite a few BEs out there that have stumbled upon this recipe for making pets of their own volition and never read the forums and dont have any common sense so they dont know that these pets are the result of a bug and are not intended to exist. But an attitude like yours Akelan is just going to encourage more people to post these ranty threads in our forum about how some low life BE ripped them off with a pet that is going to get nerfed.
This is exactly the reason I have been trying to discourage the sale of these pets - it looks badly on ALL of us when someone sells a pet like this for a huge amount of money and doesnt explain the situation - the repercusions affect us all, not just the BE that sold the pet.
Exploit (noun) to take advantage of
Making and selling pets that are the result of a bug is exploiting the bug - you are taking advantage of a bug in the system to financially gain from it.
We know specifically that these pets are bugged.
HOWEVER neither myself nor Talthazaar nor the developers has *EVER* blamed anyone for making them. We have never said that is you fault. I have specifically asked about their opinions and they have said and you know it has been said because its been quoted enough times Akelan, that the devs are not calling anyone cheaters for making these.
Yes there are probably quite a few BEs out there that have stumbled upon this recipe for making pets of their own volition and never read the forums and dont have any common sense so they dont know that these pets are the result of a bug and are not intended to exist. But an attitude like yours Akelan is just going to encourage more people to post these ranty threads in our forum about how some low life BE ripped them off with a pet that is going to get nerfed.
This is exactly the reason I have been trying to discourage the sale of these pets - it looks badly on ALL of us when someone sells a pet like this for a huge amount of money and doesnt explain the situation - the repercusions affect us all, not just the BE that sold the pet.
GMANHNC
Thu Jun 17, 2004 12:04 am
#56
Joilhath wrote:
Nope no offense taken just curious if you were refering to me. If the best argument you have against making these pets is that not worth my time or effort really.
Nope, I believe you may be Kosher... by exploit boy, I am referring to the original poster, I find it hard to believe thathe could be that clueless and have $800k to burn. I think he may have just found out that they are working on fixing this, but he knew what he was doing. Besides, I really need to unload this Rancor. I assure you it is Kosher!
NancyJ will back me up on this one, she knows the ins and outs of the Kosher game.
On a side note:
Joilhath wrote:
If the best argument you have against making these pets is that not worth my time or effort really.
Coherent thought is much appreciated on the BE forum, and if I had to guess this statement is probably not Kosher.
Message Edited by GMANHNC on 06-16-2004 03:14 PM
GMANHNC
Thu Jun 17, 2004 12:35 am
#57
I need no reason other than that NancyJ doesn't like them. And that they are not Kosher... similar to cheese (in RL), so cannot be baked in my Bid Dog Creature oven crafting station thing.
NancyJ
Thu Jun 17, 2004 12:52 am
#58
Joilhath wrote:ROFLMAO..damn and I was hoping you maybe had a good reason not to make these pets when asked to.
Because doing so is exploiting a bug in the game mechanics (by that I mean exploit in the technical sense - the devs arent taking action against BE's or owners of these pets), is unbalancing the game further than it already is and is devaluaing the CH profession - which ultimately hurts us.
dulee
Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:04 am
#59
I don't think that there has ever been an MMORPG that does not have bugs or works as designed. The dynamic nature of these games makes it impossible to predict how things will develop over time. Even testing won't cover every eventuality. As a result, many of the rixes and rebalancing tends to be reactionary. But even these fixes and rebalancing efforts will result in further developments that will occur that were not forseen or intended.
With finite resources and manpower, each of the game issues and bugs will clearly have different levels of priority. Of course the non-CH pet issue is a priority for us: we are biased becasue we are BEs. But this issue may not be a priority within the whole grand scheme of the game.
I'm probably correct to assume that BE isn't one of the most popular professions. With the number of players using pets declining significantly compared to the early days and even fewer BEs making powerful non-CH pets, is it any surprise that this issue is not at the top of the list of things to be fixed?
It seems twisted, but if pets were more popular and these powerful non-CH pets were more commonplace, the devs might actually sit up and notice and place a higher priority on fixing it.
NancyJ
Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:08 am
#60
Well if they stick to the current schedule and wait till after JTL to fix them then they're going to get a short sharp wakeup call after the combat balance 
Akelan
Thu Jun 17, 2004 6:02 am
#61
Nancy, by now you know better. The term as it is used in the MMORPG community has much more serious connotations than the dictionary definition, and you have had that explained to you in unmistakable clarity. If you continue to use it in that light, you make accusations that are far beyond the seriousness you intend. So be it. I will no longer be participating in the debate, and I will leave the resolution of it to the annointed SOE cheerleader.
I will say this: I have adjudicated in decisions concerning the acceptance of players into the type of gaming clan I described. My character in another gaming universe is still the only one in the class to posess a specific item that is highly prized by the community, more than 18 months after it has been available. He is also the only emmber of his class to solo a dragon in that environment on the server he inhabits, and one of about 5 or 6 known to have done so. I take the reputation very seriously, and I have determined that the accusations being bandied about by people who apparently do not understand the difference or the severity are too much to risk, and I am dropping the class, and along with it, probably the game.
I greatly appreciate your representation in this, it has been an excellent motivator to my making the decision as to whether the community in SWG was maturing adequately to be of interest to such a group. It lacks the content, though some progress is being made, and the systems are being developed in keeping with the common progress of the type, especially given the genre and the breadth of the options here. The one place the game is indeed lacking is the communal effort and coordination that the high-level clans bring to bear; SWG is a solo FPS with a good chat system and a dramaticly immature interdependence structure. While it has the rudiments of what is needed to effectively coordinate and utilize the skills of multiple players, it lacks both a functional raid system and the rewards and challenges to support one. Grafting on the twitch combat in space with an attendant leaderboard will do little to improve that; it is quite clear that SOE has other design goals for the game.
I understand the feelings of those that see too much time alone in this game as a BE. Soloing here is de'rigeur, in most of the games that I am reviewing, soloing is what you do if you cannot do anything else, or solely for grinding exp. Few players in SWG will ever know the feeling of having 60-80 players perfectly co-ordinated, each doing their specific part and the entire success of the operation dependant on that level of cooperation and trust. Most will never know the elation of taking down a massively superior opponent, that normally requires 40-50 people to defeat, with a dozen very highly skilled players. Sadly, they will miss the best part of the multiplayer experience; the knowledge and trust in companions that make it possible to do these things.
That trust is also based on sharing the reputation, as well as the risk and the reward. To carry a clan name, you carry a part of every player's history and achievement, and to be accepted into one with a high reputation and the ability to excel at these challenges, you must bear a reputation they will be proud to share. Accusations are taken VERY seriously by the highest clans, as they are always under heavy scrutiny, as well as generally listened closely to by the developers of the games. The level of content they challenge is highly expensive in terms of effort and cost to produce, and they are most often the first to report the existance of any exploits that they encounter. These clans are absolutely driven to win, and to be the first to master a difficult challenge, and they guard zealously the opportunity to do so. To be accused of exploiting robs them of those chances, and they do not take such a thing lightly.
That is what I am trying my best to make you understand. As long as you continue to describe the BE community as exploiting when they are not using anything outside the normal processes, and not going to any exceptional lengths or behaviors to do this, regardless of the original intent or testing, you make a much more serious and lasting accusation than you apparently understand or I am sure, intend.
I am afraid it is one I cannot accept. It will not mean anything of consequence to either SOE or the BE community to lose one player, my leaving will in no way change the game or diminish the potential it has at all. What it will do is remove me from the controversy, and I hope I will be replaced by other voices as insistant on the developers and management being held to the standards we have held ourselves to in agreeing that these pets do not belong in the first place. We need that; SOE has a long history of ignoring issues to death, until a new generation of players accepts things as being the way they are. One look at the current boycott of the most popular MMORPG in existance's newest expansion will show the lengths it takes at times.
Thanks for listening. Even if I have been unable to get my point across at times, and offended or at best failed to convince, people here have given the time to consider, even if it is to rebut. That is a gift that whose value they do not always realize, and I appreciate it.
LLan
Talthazar
Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:44 am
#62
Kevm, that response was directed at our correspondent, and the former correspondent who is weighing in on the same subject. Neither of them seem to have a good grasp of the seriousness of the terms they are using.
Quite the contrary, I understand full well the implications. That's why I think it's important we understandthis problemfor what it is. The devs have stated they will not punish players for making these pets. I would have fought it if they said otherwise since, as you say, a player doesn't have to go to any great lengths tocreate overpowered pets. That, however does not protect your reputation from the possible repercussions from the player community once this is fixed.
Quite the contrary, I understand full well the implications. That's why I think it's important we understandthis problemfor what it is. The devs have stated they will not punish players for making these pets. I would have fought it if they said otherwise since, as you say, a player doesn't have to go to any great lengths tocreate overpowered pets. That, however does not protect your reputation from the possible repercussions from the player community once this is fixed.
I never meant to imply blame when calling this an exploit, only to make people understand the risks. I don't care how many times you tell customers these are overpowered and will be nerfed, not all will listen. Some things have seemed to be consistant in my experience in MMO's.One of these thingsis that people's ears lap over when they hear something they don't wish to.
My reputation is very important to me as well. It's why I refuse to make these at all now. I did make what I thought were reasonable non-CH pets for a while. When that thought turned out to be wrong as well, I got out of the market entirely. In the end, it will not be your account in danger from action by SOE. It will be your reputation in danger from angry customers that's at stake.
ScoutMastr
Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:00 am
#63
excellent post LLan..5 stars--very well spoken...errr...typed
This is my first MMORPG, so I'm still learning. It's strange that people are arguing with you when it seems we all agree--these pets are not what was intended, they may be possible because of a bug, or a bad design (is that the same thing?), and also, the devs aren't calling anyone cheaters or exploiters. Perhaps because they understand your point about using that term loosely. I guess "exploit" is used too often when there is a lackof a better term...In the world of MMORPG, what is used for the above described behavior?...griefing? Nope, I think that's too serious a chargealso.I don't know, but as long as I know for a fact that these pets aren't intended to be made, I just won't make them--or I'll try not to make them, considering we don't know what the boundaries are.
...hope ya stick around a little longer--these guys aren't so bad--I learn a lot reading these boards, thanks to their contributions...I leave it at that.
ArthurDentOnBria
Thu Jun 17, 2004 10:42 am
#64
Ackelan,
Sorry to see you go. I've enjoyed hearing from you as part of the tight nit BE community and you'll be missed. I don't happen to agree with you in this area, and I believe the high "above reproach" clan morals you speak of are somewhat inconsistent with your stance on the BE non-ch pets, and I think you're overreacting a bit (ok, actually a lot) as suffice it to say that BE's are pretty evenly divided as far as this issue goes (your stance is certainly well represented), but you have to do what is funnest for you in the end. I hope you reconsider or at least give yourself a "cool off" period and think about it, but if you do depart I wish you well.
Good luck, perhaps our paths will cross in another galaxy somewhere.
Message Edited by ArthurDentOnBria on 06-17-2004 10:50 AM
Seraphym14
Fri Jun 18, 2004 12:46 am
#65
Farewell, Llan. I hope one day you will let go of the false pixel ideals of Everquest and are able to enjoy a game without feeling the need for an addictive bait and switch.
Whatever you do, wherever you go - I wish the wind upon your back and the road soft under your feet.
Whatever you do, wherever you go - I wish the wind upon your back and the road soft under your feet.