Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: To the Devs on ill legit Non CH pets...
NancyJ
Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:48 pm
#27
Unfortunately there is no way to enforce a system like that and it would mostly mean they we'd just go out of business 
Players, however respectable, are in the end always swayed by credits, whether through necessity or greed, the outcome is always the same.
Many groups of people on the forums have tried to influence things in game in this manner and I have never seen it work.
Players, however respectable, are in the end always swayed by credits, whether through necessity or greed, the outcome is always the same.
Many groups of people on the forums have tried to influence things in game in this manner and I have never seen it work.
Seraphym14
Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:29 am
#28
Take deep breathes, folks.
It's been my experience that clients do not know what we are capable of. Unfortunately, I've run into far too many BE's who are equally uneducated in what we are capable of and they give out false information or create non-ch pets with aggressive skins, etc.
It's wrong to assume that everyone knows what they can know. Let's not jump on others or eachother over it.
I knew about the pet nerf range because I was around for the first round of pet nerfs and watched my MBE friend in tears from the death threats she was receiving ingame over something she could not control and had no knowledge would be changed.
Since some of us do understand that changes are coming again, it behooves us to mentor other BE's and clients in an intelligent, patient manner. The original posters anger is misdirected, yes, but it demonstrates a gap of information. I'm remiss in knowing what the Holo ingame says about pets. It should have information about non-ch levels (1-10), list the 1-10 aggressive skins that won't work for non-ch's and it should state that a non-ch can only have two pets. (If it does all these things, I'm sorry for restating it. If it doesn't, it needs to. That's absolutel basic pet 101 information.)
/hugs NancyJ (We all have those days, hon.)
It's been my experience that clients do not know what we are capable of. Unfortunately, I've run into far too many BE's who are equally uneducated in what we are capable of and they give out false information or create non-ch pets with aggressive skins, etc.
It's wrong to assume that everyone knows what they can know. Let's not jump on others or eachother over it.
I knew about the pet nerf range because I was around for the first round of pet nerfs and watched my MBE friend in tears from the death threats she was receiving ingame over something she could not control and had no knowledge would be changed.
Since some of us do understand that changes are coming again, it behooves us to mentor other BE's and clients in an intelligent, patient manner. The original posters anger is misdirected, yes, but it demonstrates a gap of information. I'm remiss in knowing what the Holo ingame says about pets. It should have information about non-ch levels (1-10), list the 1-10 aggressive skins that won't work for non-ch's and it should state that a non-ch can only have two pets. (If it does all these things, I'm sorry for restating it. If it doesn't, it needs to. That's absolutel basic pet 101 information.)
/hugs NancyJ (We all have those days, hon.)
NancyJ
Wed Jun 16, 2004 3:49 am
#29
Its not quite the same thing as armour - it is true that armour can currently be crafted outside the expected limits set by the devs - but not because of a bug in the system. Whereas these pets are being crafted because of a bug.
Joilhath
Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:20 am
#30
Why they are crafted isn't really important the armour is getting adjusted down and I would bet long before these pets get adjusted down.
The only real thing wrong with these pets is that a nonCH can control a pet as strong as a low level CH but even still that's not really the case as and a few levels and you get armour on the pet as well.
GMANHNC
Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:06 am
#31
Stupid SOE FORUM!!
Message Edited by GMANHNC on 06-16-2004 12:11 PM
GMANHNC
Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:08 am
#32
NancyJ wrote:
As for them not being kosher any more - they've never been 'kosher'. They are so far beyond obviously being bugged.
Wild cl 10 pets have 1800 HAM max and no resists - that should have been the first clue that something wasnt right.
Infact there is no Rabi profession in the game so reallynothing in the game is "kosher."
P.S. I have a 100% Kosher Non-CH Rancor 1 (0) lvl you might be interested in exploit boy.
Akelan
Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:39 am
#33
If your pets can be killed in one blow, (a requirement for being Kosher), what good are they in the first place? This seems a little too heavy a nerf to me.. 
I had posted some time back a thread in which I discussed the high-health non-CH pets from the point of view of trade-offs, using a Cowardly Gurreck as a reference pet. I still think this is a reasonable place to begin, and look at the total "value" of the pet, as far as Damage and Durability, as a pool from which to engineer our results to our specifications. Taking say the "value" of 20% resists to Kinetic and Energy, and 0 resists to all the rest, 3000 - 3200 in each of the three main stat pools and say for the sake of a working example, 150 damage at 2.0 speed and a .25 to-hit, as the maximum allowable for a non-CH pet. (I know this is arbitrary and not too well substantiated, but it comes close to the CG's stats, which were what the devs apparently thought a pet usable by a non-CH could be, prior to the reduction in CL, and they compare reasonably to the combat droid's pool)
In a theoretical crafting environment then, we might be able to work within these parameters:
We should, at least possibly, be able to direct at least 60% of any given stat, shall we say, from the base 3200 in that pool to either of the other two pools, and must retain at least 40% of it as a minimum in the original pool.
We should be able to gain say a 5% resist that can be applied to any other if we engineer it properly, by making a creature vulnerable to a damage type. Kinetic and Energy being valued as they appear to be in the formula ZardoZap has been developing, I would expect say 10% for a Kinetic vulnerability and 20% for an energy vulnerability. Caps at 60% for K and E, an 100% for the others seem to be standard, I would not expect otherwise in our non-CH pets.
Damage at 150, at 2,0 speed and .25% to hit equates to a DPS of about 18.75. I would suggest, for the sake of theoretical calculations, that DPS would really be pretty valuable, so perhaps worth a rate of 1 DPS to 250 points in the HAM stat pool or 2% in a resist pool other than K and E, maybe 1% there effectively.
That would give us a range at a CL 10 of up to an 7K health if the action and mind were at a minimum level of 1280 each, and a 60% kinetic will vulnerability to energy and at least 4 other damage types, with the 150/2.0/.25 combination, or something like a 100/2.0/.37 ( the equivalent DPS to the maximum).
Some tradeoff for lowering the DPS and the other resists might enable us to bump the health a little, but a cap on overall health increase, say 10% for the sake of discussion, would still keep the maximum health to 7700 if everything were engineered in favor of that, and the DPS would drop by as much as 4, or something like 150/2.25/.22 for the damage to get that much health bonus room.
True, that is still a pretty powerful pet, but it does present a possibility for us to experiement and create pets well engineered towards our customer's specific needs. I'd like to see the dependability and action pools play more of a role in pets, as an example, and other things lend themselves to more specialized pets, but I do realize the complexity of encoding such flexibility.
With something of this nature for our crafting "range", it would allow us to estimate what a pet's capabilities could be at a target CL, and better determine what is and is not a "good pet" at any given level. I don't expect to be precisely told that this is the allowable maximum per level, and I think actually releasing that information would seriously detract from the game and the profession, but to have the code work in such a way that the pets we could craft were based on a very consistant "shell", within which we had significant freedom to tinker. I think it was intended to be so, but the "outer parameters" are probably too loose and that is where the extremes that we have seen become possible; perhaps the "fix" we need is not in how the system works, but in the extent to which we can put all our eggs in any one basket.
(OMG, do you realize I just asked for LESS freedom in our crafing as a way to improve it?) 
LLan
Joilhath
Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:54 am
#34
GMANHNC wrote:
P.S. I have a 100% Kosher Non-CH Rancor 1 (0) lvl you might be interested in exploit boy.
Exploit Boy? If you're refering to me no thanks have a couple as decoration already.
Oh just wanted to add as an exploit is "cheating" and Keldarin says these pets aren't no exploit here.
Message Edited by Joilhath on 06-16-2004 11:23 PM
NancyJ
Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:13 am
#35
on a total tangent here - did you know you can get Kosher Coke? Its been 'watched' by a Rabbi lol 
GMANHNC
Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:34 am
#36
NancyJ wrote:
on a total tangent here - did you know you can get Kosher Coke? Its been 'watched' by a Rabbi lol
I did know that, most of what is Kosher is either watched or the ovens are blessed, stuff like that. I believe that a Rabi watch my Rancor be made. But I guess exploit boy still isn't interested. Oh well, and he seems to have taken offense, is he not Jewish after all? If so I must warn him because, I am not sure that these Forums are Kosher, I better check with TH.
Akelan
Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:39 am
#37
The forums couldn't be kosher, we can't seem to kill anything with a single blow here...
GMANHNC
Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:41 am
#38
Akelan wrote:
With something of this nature for our crafting "range", it would allow us to estimate what a pet's capabilities could be at a target CL, and better determine what is and is not a "good pet" at any given level. I don't expect to be precisely told that this is the allowable maximum per level, and I think actually releasing that information would seriously detract from the game and the profession, but to have the code work in such a way that the pets we could craft were based on a very consistant "shell", within which we had significant freedom to tinker. I think it was intended to be so, but the "outer parameters" are probably too loose and that is where the extremes that we have seen become possible; perhaps the "fix" we need is not in how the system works, but in the extent to which we can put all our eggs in any one basket.
(OMG, do you realize I just asked for LESS freedom in our crafing as a way to improve it?)
LLan
Another way to accomplish this would be to make it necesary to use FISH to make CL 10's
I am fellin' a little crazy today.
NancyJ
Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:49 am
#39
GMANHNC wrote:
NancyJ wrote:
on a total tangent here - did you know you can get Kosher Coke? Its been 'watched' by a Rabbi lolI did know that, most of what is Kosher is either watched or the ovens are blessed, stuff like that. I believe that a Rabi watch my Rancor be made. But I guess exploit boy still isn't interested. Oh well, and he seems to have taken offense, is he not Jewish after all? If so I must warn him because, I am not sure that these Forums are Kosher, I better check with TH.
Would that not just be the coolest job though - I mean just sit and 'watch' coke. - hardly fitting of a Rabbi (or any other 'ordained; religous person for that matter)