Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: 2nd Gen Armoured CL19's
Zadokk
Tue Sep 14, 2004 12:12 am
#40
NancyJ wrote:
I'm still crossing my fingers for 10.1 (scheduled as correspondant issues)
If not, then I shall show them what my little precious pets will do to their combat balance
You forgot to add:
"Fly my pretties! FLY!"
/cackle
NancyJ
Tue Sep 14, 2004 12:14 am
#41
Zadokk wrote:
NancyJ wrote:
I'm still crossing my fingers for 10.1 (scheduled as correspondant issues)
If not, then I shall show them what my little precious pets will do to their combat balanceYou forgot to add:
"Fly my pretties! FLY!"
/cackle
Fly? ha - you wish
Speaking of which... time for a new wish list thread.
Zadokk
Tue Sep 14, 2004 12:23 am
#42
I was about to say maybe Santa will bring me what I want for Christmas but then I realised that's when the CB revamp is probably gonna happen
NancyJ wrote:
Zadokk wrote:
NancyJ wrote:
I'm still crossing my fingers for 10.1 (scheduled as correspondant issues)
If not, then I shall show them what my little precious pets will do to their combat balance
You forgot to add:
"Fly my pretties! FLY!"
/cackle
Fly? ha - you wish
Speaking of which... time for a new wish list thread.
SkyPreacher1
Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:13 am
#43
Point is we don't know what the CB will fix.
Point we don't know when and if the CB will ever come out. Excuse me for being a bit skeptical but CH has been "balanced" for almost a year and we have been dogmeat for almost every high end mob and pvper since then.
Point, I would love to have a creature that did high end damage with their special, maybe like Death strike or lethal blow or something like that, I would even prefer to have that special work on my command and cost either me or the pet HAM points. Will it happen I doubt it.
Point, everyone thinks it's perfectly fine to have a non ch pet with a HAM of 8K and 60% kinetic resist and not have to spend any SP to use it. Nobody thinks it's fine for another player to be able to use a T21, vibroblade, scythe etc and not have to earn the right to use it. Pets are my weapons but not in SWG they can be anyone weapons. Add to that the fact that a Jedi, if he so chooses can take my weapon and turn it against me, interesting how would the swordsman feel if the Jedi could yank his sword out of his hand and attack him with lethal damage, not so good.
I return to my former suggestion and I will pass it on to Tiggs that non-ch pets be eliminated completely, except for CL 5 mounts.
Acrod_Novys
Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:18 am
#44
Lurking and laughing, lurking and laughing...
Seems to me we're the single most self-destructive profession in the game. We're makers of the weapons of a crippled profession and we continue to argue amongst ourselves about how various mildly handicapped weapons are too powerful compared to the truly crippled ones.
MrHavecam
Tue Sep 14, 2004 9:11 am
#45
Seiryuu wrote:
A CL 19 pet allows the user to have a 10k HAM, light AR, 60% kinetic resistant pet with three boxes.
Seiryuu,
Hercreation does not have 10k HAM. It has 10k health. As has been pointed out to you several times in this thread, if you can't get that differintiation, there probably is no point in discussing it further. Your perk for being Master CH is that you get to have 3 of these beauties out at once. I get to have 2 out with my skill, and a 0-3-0-0 get's to have 1. If you don't feel that having 3 of these out at your level of CH ability is enough of an advantage, I would recommend dropping Master and finding a more comfortable level.
I'm gonna make myself a couple of these tonight. Then I may start "flooding the market". 
Thesad part is, there is hardly any market, so it's not real hard to flood.
-Kako Wiawie
Wanderhome
Master BE/ 2-4-1-4 CH
SlimJoe
Tue Sep 14, 2004 9:20 am
#46
ArthurDentOnBria wrote:
Please don't compare these (CL 19) pets to the bugged CL 10 ones. They are miles apart.
Have anyone tried making the exact pet WITHOUT pushing the fortitude over 500 ? I'm pretty much sure it would make a near CL10 pet with 10k Health and 60% Kin resist.
Haven't tried though so I'm not 100% positive on that one...
Seiryuu
Tue Sep 14, 2004 10:03 am
#47
Her creation does not have 10k HAM. It has 10k health. As has been pointed out to you several times in this thread, if you can't get that differintiation, there probably is no point in discussing it further.
Let's get something staight right now. The HAM system functions such that certain bars are hit a percentage of the time. Having any bar over the statistical percentage of the others means they are simply wasted points and are effectively higher than the limiting factor, which is usually health.
50% Health
33% Action
17% Mind
for a pet with 10,000 health this translates to:
10k Health
6.6k Action
3.4k Mind
In this pet's case, it has well in excess of action and mind, with health being the limiting factor. Effectively it does have 10k HAM. In fact, were you to get the bars closer to this value the CL would lower and the pet would be just as good. In fact, the damage could be upped somewhat and still keep the CL 19 rating. For a master it could be upped a little more and still get three of these out.
I understand the system quite well, thank you very much, and that that is exactly I find this overpowered.
Let's get something staight right now. The HAM system functions such that certain bars are hit a percentage of the time. Having any bar over the statistical percentage of the others means they are simply wasted points and are effectively higher than the limiting factor, which is usually health.
50% Health
33% Action
17% Mind
for a pet with 10,000 health this translates to:
10k Health
6.6k Action
3.4k Mind
In this pet's case, it has well in excess of action and mind, with health being the limiting factor. Effectively it does have 10k HAM. In fact, were you to get the bars closer to this value the CL would lower and the pet would be just as good. In fact, the damage could be upped somewhat and still keep the CL 19 rating. For a master it could be upped a little more and still get three of these out.
I understand the system quite well, thank you very much, and that that is exactly I find this overpowered.
ArthurDentOnBria
Tue Sep 14, 2004 10:22 am
#48
Seiryuu,
I guess I just don't understand what you're trying to get at, and what the point is of your posts in this thread. Where are you "going" with that? What exactly are you suggesting?. Here is what I believe the sticking points are of this discussion:
1) Is a CL 19 pet with light armor, 60% kinetic, vulnerable to everything else, half the dps of a wild counterpart having it's CL calculated correctly by the system?
See my other post. I believe the CL calculation is perfectly reasonable, and consistent with other CL calculations in the current system.
2) Should BE's be able to skew HAM to take advantage of the damage pool tendencies of combat with no CL penalty?
I can't believe anyone, particularly a BE or former BE would begrudge us this
3) Should BE's be able to make HAM vs dps tradeoffs in our creatures with no CL penalty?
I can't believe anyone, particularly a BE or a former BE would begrudge us this either
4) Is a low level CH who can control such a CL 19 pet greatly overpowered relative to other forms of combat?
This is the only one that is really debateable imho, but I say, in general,"no". Objectively, if the answer was "yes" to this, we'd see an awful lot of CH dabbling right now (I've been selling such creatures in small numbers since days after the BE revamp came out) and we're certainly not seeing that. In fact, these pets are not particularly hot sellers for me. I sell a lot more CL 25-28ish pets, and CL 35ish pets that have a lot more desireable dps-to-ham ratio.
Message Edited by ArthurDentOnBria on 09-14-2004 11:27 AM
Bendi_James
Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:30 am
#49
Nancy.....did you some how plan thisdiscussion to mergeintoan "overpowered pets" debate or can I blame Zadokk for starting this whole sorry affair....lol. Oh by the way.....cool recipe and I am doin' my best to flood as many of these into the Tempest marketas I can.
Seiryuu, your points are duelly noted and I respect your passion and debate for debate's sake.
Here is what I have observed.
In the beginning of my game play here at SWG (Aug03), I watched a co-worker who was one of the first MCH's on the Tempest server,work a mob on Dantooine. I marveled at the sheer brute of his pets and his ability to control them.The pets dispatched the mob, protected him, protected me and protected others all at the same time.I was quite happy as I wasable to gain the required XP to move up a couple of boxes in my chosen profession. Another time, I watched my co-worker PvP in Anchorhead with those same pets and he did very well. Today, reguardless of what peta player has in theirdatapad, it won't beenough for PvP and very little for PvE. So why dosome make such a big deal out of pets even when they have a "great" deal more Health, Action and Mind when in the end.....it only helps a miniscule amount. It's not a gamebreaking element and I feel sure that the Devs view this in the same light. Hence, this is why they do nothing about low CL pets with huge HAMs.
For Boopadoo's sake, the invalid pet check for regular CL/HAM pets is still agood arguement.
I believe the arguement of "overpowered pets" gets alot of attention becausesome of us remember the glory days of CH's. Nowadays, they are little more than a noveltyprofession at best and really not overly useful in grouping, soloing or any other aspect. Personally, I am a CH 1-1-1-2 and MBE. I dropped CH 4 times before I became a BE.....why? Because the wild pets I was taming could not hold their own after the CH fix/nerf...whatever you want to call it. Most BE's that have been around for awhile have probably dabbled in CH just for protection reasons since our profession doesn't offer an enormous amount of SP to carry Merchant, TKA, Scout, BE, Doctor, etc.... Therefore, we try to make the best pets possible for our own personal use and protection reasons. As a MBE, I will make pets that are a great dealmore powerefulthan the wild ones for 2 simple reasons; theCH profession, if any, deserves nothing less and I need to protect my own arse as well.
As far as Non-CH pets goes, the VD, VD, HP, HP, HP recipe has been an age oldCL10 recipe for as long as I have been a BE. I haveused thesepets inPvE and they are absolutelynothing special.... I used them to run intereference when I sampled on Endor and theagro began to come at me hot and heavy. Better for my pet to get poisoned or diseased than me. Again, these are not gamebreakers.
For those that would say Nancy's pet is overpowered, I think you need to borrow, buy, buildone and test drive it in PvP or PvE for that matter. I wagersome will sing a very humbletune and save allthe fancy back-and-forth debatelingofor a more worthy subject.
Seiryuu
Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:47 am
#50
1) I am not arguing that the CL is calculated "correctly" as per how it is coded. What I am arguing is that the forumla is not in accordance with the mathematical model they used to redistribute creatures per the balance in December 2003.
This model is what the entire Combat Rebalance will center around, and the existing BE system does not follow the spirit of it.
2) I have no problem with a BE being able to skew the HAM of a creature. However this skewing should be within a resonable range.
Say a pet has 15000 health + action + mind. Then the BE pet should still have 15000 health + action + mind for it to maintain the same CL. Properly done and with no other changes, this gives a creature 150% of a wild one.
Resistances, especially if they are one of the few that matter such as kinetic, must be considered in the CL at a proper weight.
3) Yes, BEs should be able to make trade-offs, however the relative worth of these needs to be taken into consideration.
If a pet does half the dps, then its survivability (effective HAM) should no more than double. Even that is dubious since it can be paired with other systems (a person with a combat mastery for example) to get a far more effective combination than were no trade-off made.
4) When compared to wild pets, yes. When compared to other combat professions as they exist, no. However all of those are about to be rebalanced to match wild pets as per my point (1).
That leaves BE pets as an anomoly after the Combat Rebalance, and way overpowered.
The pet given by this recipe, especially with refinement, fails on all four of these points.
1) It does not follow the rebalanced model.
2) Its HAM is not a skewing but an increase. Further its effective HAM is orders of magnitude more.
3) A 60% reduction in dps (improvable with some work) does not warrent an 800% increase in survivablility. At best it should around 160% and that is failing to consider synergies of player combat skill with a tank and free health.
4) After the revamp, this pet will drawf the combat abilities of most players for a minor skill point investment.
This model is what the entire Combat Rebalance will center around, and the existing BE system does not follow the spirit of it.
2) I have no problem with a BE being able to skew the HAM of a creature. However this skewing should be within a resonable range.
Say a pet has 15000 health + action + mind. Then the BE pet should still have 15000 health + action + mind for it to maintain the same CL. Properly done and with no other changes, this gives a creature 150% of a wild one.
Resistances, especially if they are one of the few that matter such as kinetic, must be considered in the CL at a proper weight.
3) Yes, BEs should be able to make trade-offs, however the relative worth of these needs to be taken into consideration.
If a pet does half the dps, then its survivability (effective HAM) should no more than double. Even that is dubious since it can be paired with other systems (a person with a combat mastery for example) to get a far more effective combination than were no trade-off made.
4) When compared to wild pets, yes. When compared to other combat professions as they exist, no. However all of those are about to be rebalanced to match wild pets as per my point (1).
That leaves BE pets as an anomoly after the Combat Rebalance, and way overpowered.
The pet given by this recipe, especially with refinement, fails on all four of these points.
1) It does not follow the rebalanced model.
2) Its HAM is not a skewing but an increase. Further its effective HAM is orders of magnitude more.
3) A 60% reduction in dps (improvable with some work) does not warrent an 800% increase in survivablility. At best it should around 160% and that is failing to consider synergies of player combat skill with a tank and free health.
4) After the revamp, this pet will drawf the combat abilities of most players for a minor skill point investment.
Bynder
Tue Sep 14, 2004 1:11 pm
#51
bigjeff5 wrote:
long post about PvP and this pet
CHs don't PvP, basically ever. Pets die in PvP in 3 shots max and our only hope is one of the couple rares with a strong enough disease to ensure that our opponent dies sometime after we do
PvP considerations are negligable to CHs in evaluating pet strength.
For the broader audience, let me take a shot at a short "look at it from our side"
-CHs pets are used for PvE
-CHs keep combat pets for both kinetic resists (wild examples: TMB, Arachne Widow, GSH) and energy/heat resists (Rhoa Kwi Pack leaders and guardians as good examples)
-CHs rarely encounter a mismatch to their pets (i.e., we only fight kinetic damage with kinetic pets and energy with energy)
-CH we've been hit so hard and so often with the nerf bat that we fear entering toy stores
This level 19 pet is as good or better as a kinetic resist tank pet than any wild tame of any level, and is equivalent to nearly all high level BE'd pets. Given this we can expect two things to happen guaranteed as this recipe becomes common.
1) New CH dabblers getting enough CH to wield a single one of these in KINETIC encounters
2) MCHs wielding 3 of these in KINETIC encounters
Following history, the next step is "SOE hits CHs out of the park with the nerf bat" (while removing one recipe from BE).
So the BE counter arguement is that kinetic tanking duties is just one situation and as such (and given it's weakness in all other encounters) this pet is balanced. I could agree with that if it were not for the fact that 75% of more of all my combat is against kinetic damaging creatures (it'd be even more if it weren't for stormtroopers
). Anything other than kinetic, energy, and heat resist are basically weighted zero and kinetic is still much more important than energy or heat. That's just the way it is. I will also give a tip to "pure CHs" (god I hate that term), for a non-combat CH this pet is nearly useless due to the damage. Even considering it's somewhat limited purpose, kinetic tanking for combat CHs, it is too strong for its CL. That situtation is too common to mitigate the stat imbalance.That's why CHs are getting all worked up about this. Honestly, you guys scare the crud out of us because we know that whenever you find a bug/miscalculation/imbalance it's CHs that seem overpowered because of it. And yes, CHs overreact, it's kinda like a dog that's been hit with the newspaper one too many times.
ArthurDentOnBria
Tue Sep 14, 2004 1:14 pm
#52
Bynder wrote:
Given this we can expect two things to happen guaranteed as this recipe becomes common.
1) New CH dabblers getting enough CH to wield a single one of these in KINETIC encounters
2) MCHs wielding 3 of these in KINETIC encounters
new ch dabblers? Why new? BE's have been creating such pets since January of this year, and if anything the numbers of CH have gone down, and these days I see a lot more MCH then dabbler CH.
The triplets, yet, you do see that. Although honestly, like I said, most of my customers tell me they'd rather have 2 or 1 for convenience-sake, so they favor the 35's over the 23's.