Bio Engineer Archive

Thank you Bynder.

The numbers of handlers have gone down since creatures (and thus CH) are currently very underpowered. In the existing game this is painfully true. Once everyone is at (or gods forbid under) the power of handlers, pets like this will be out of whack.

Bigjeff, I've been around since the nerf. There is a difference between making superior creatures and overpowered creatures. No developer will ever intentionally make something that is too powerful. They aren't perfect and players find ways to 'improve' on their ideas. This is a case of being able to take the system further than it was intended.

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valetman

Exploit - tr. v. - To employ to the greatest possible advantage.

I do not recall directly calling this an exploit, but so what? It is certainly trying to build the best pet possible. BE is all about doing that.

I am not nor have I called anyone a cheater, which is what you claim I am doing. I am not.

I am simply stating that this pet is overpowered. If you notice, I encourage them to be made and distributed. Not because I want someone to get in trouble but because I want a discrepancy fixed.

However as Nancy has stated she feels it is not overpowered, it will never be brought to anyone's attention. So I will have to go through other channels to get it noticed, including encouraging all of you to mass produce them. If I ever get a second character I will pick up BE and do it myself. *shrug*

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Bendi, as for proof about how I know this will happen?

The devs stated quite emphatically that getting creatures on a set scale was key to starting the balance. They need a basis on what people should be able to fight, so it makes sense to start here.

Future balance changes have to scale players approximately to this level or else they have to rebalance creatures yet again. They aren't going to throw that work away, and they can get player to this level fairly easily with just number tweaks.

For proof?

After one of the Combat Revamp delays myself and a few other handlers pointed out on JustG's thread that Handlers are being left behind because of the delay between when it should have occured and when it is. Gary posted on the CH forum that he's sorry, we will just have to live with it until the rest of the changes go through (unfortunately that post has been deleted).

To me that is an implicit statement that soon others will be joining us, because the devs have stated multiple times creatures will mostly be untouched. There was no point to bring us back up to everyone else's power if they just have to lower us again.

While we don't know the details, most of those following the revamp expect massive reductions in player damage and armor. (The conspiracy theorists will state that the revamp has been delayed not because it isn't ready but because they need people in space and not so tied to the ground anymore. If you want a feel for the outcry, go read the CH boards from December to February or beyond, but we started getting numb...)

Also the Jedi found they were doing pathetic damage until the temporary damage modifiers were added. Also note their robes were never given armor or resistances (as they feel were promised) because when the revamp comes through, they will be on the same level as other players.

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Anyways, while I said I would respond to comments directed at me, I am stopping. Running a one woman crusade to spread the truth can be fun, but this looks like it is going to devolve very soon.

You guys continue thinking this is a great pet in perfectly working system and I will continue thinking it is overpowered. We are going to have to agree to disagree and in time one side will be proven correct.

To those that tried, thank you for being civil despite our disagreement. *salute*

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Bynder wrote:

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bigjeff5 wrote:
long post about PvP and this pet

CHs don't PvP, basically ever. Pets die in PvP in 3 shots max and our only hope is one of the couple rares with a strong enough disease to ensure that our opponent dies sometime after we do

That, my friend, is EXACTLY my point.

CH's don't PvP, or do very high end content with their pets (like the DWB or Corvette) because even 3 of the most uber "unballanced", "overpowered" pet a BE could make is no where near a match for ANY elite combat profession. Period. It would probably take a TKM the longest to kill three pets like Nancy's, and I'd put his time for that at maybe 10 seconds, tops. And in that time the pets, if you assume the BE was able to actually exploit the system and get 500+ damage and keep the kinetic and high health and low CL, would do about 100 damage between the three of them (-60% for TKM toughness, -90% total damage reduction of 80% kinetic composite, plus high miss rate on a TKM).

Even an exploited pet wouldn't come near to being overpowered. And the combat balance is, as I understand it, is still a ways away, and you can assume the devs will tweak things on the BE side if they are over powered post-balance.

Another example of how not overpowered BE pets are, is the fact that as a master swordsman I can solo an Enraged Rancor lair (which is about the same as our best kinetic cl 70 pet, 14k+ HAM light armor 60% kinetic), which when I beat on the lair like I usually do, spawns about 8 or 10 at a time, totalling about 15 or so. I chew them up and spit them out in under 30 seconds.

SO! You guys are looking in the wrong direction for your overpowered examples. We need to be comparing CH's using BE pets to other professions to see who is underpowered, as wild creatures have always been far weaker than players. And when you look in the propper direction, you find that, oh my goodness, these pets are actually quite UNDER powered!

The fact that 75% of what a CH can do has to ignore 100% of the high end content (PvP and DWB/Corvette, etc.) should give you a clue.

One final test, the ultimate of the creature combat, go try to solo a Krayt using pets. Go on, try. TKM's can do it. Swordsmen can do it. Riflemen can do it. Sure it takes them all a lot of work, but it will NEVER happen as a CH if you only use these "overpowered" pets.

Like I said, you guys are looking the wrong way. You shouldn't be comparing what CH's can do to what wild creatures can do, you should be comparing what CH's can do to what other combat professions can do. Then you see why there are so few CH's and BE's compared to all the other professions.

Message Edited by bigjeff5 on 09-14-2004 01:52 PM

Message Edited by SkyPreacher1 on 09-14-2004 03:08 PM

Ok, I don't know how many of you guys were around since before the '03 december CH/BE changes, and the simultanious and drastic creature weakening (a nerf for all CH's, a boon to every other class), but the whole POINT of the BE changes, as stated by the devs, were to allow BE's to create pets that were far superior to wild creatures IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES.

That is exactly what this pet and almost every pet we have recipies for do. And even with all your whining about these pets, these cl 19's are LESS effective than pre-nerf grauls and graul maulers especially. Maulers were just shy of 10k HAM, light armor, and 75% kinetic, making their effectiveness right around 60-70k HAM. And that wasn't Health, that was HAM.

Nancy's pets would get beat in a heartbeat by mid level NPC's (talkin stormtrooper level here). They would die in 2-3 hits tops in PvP, if the person they are fighting is lousy.

These are ONLY GOOD FOR CREATURE PVE COMBAT!! That severely limits their use!! That's the point!! They are only good for one thing!!

And if you say that is all people will want to use them for, well, THAT'S THE POINT!!! That is why they changed the whole stinkin system!!! If they wanted us to make creatures that aren't vastly more effective in certain specific situations than wild creatures, guess what, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE CHANGED THE SYSTEM!!!

That's my point. The old system let us make better than wild creatures, but they were still close, still had the same drawbacks and still had the same essential effectiveness, BE pets were just a little better. Ever seen a 13k HAM (that's HAM, not health, but all three) wild tamed gurreck? Well, pre december those were the cream of the crop high end BE pets. If you needed more damage output you went with the 12.5k 660 damage rancors. In case you didn't know, wild rancors have 10.5k ham, wild gurrecks have around 11k.

We already did the better, but not very out of wack pets. We did them for 6 months. The devs decided we needed to specialize. Now you are saying we are wrong for doing exactly what the devs intended? I'm sorry, but the only pets I've ever heard the devs say were overpowered were the cl 10 5k+ health pets. Apparently there is a bug and they can't figure it out or don't care about fixing it. All the others have been A-OK, because that is exactly the kind of thing the devs WANTED us to do!!

Were you even there? We have maximized the system for 1 type of fighting, and the type that is actually the least popular or considered the least fun of all the types of fighting in this game. PvP is what combat balance is based on in this game 99% of the time, and you CANNOT say these are overpowered in PvP. You would be laughed off the forums.

And one last question before I go, if these pets are so incredibly overpowered, where are the CH's? I hardly ever see a CH, and our pets have only gotten better since the big nerf. You remember around launch? Every one was a CH. Why? Because 3 13k HAM medium armor gurrecks at a time was overpowered. THIS is not even close to overpowered. Sit down and be quiet, thanks.

/rant off

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Seiryuu wrote:
1) I am not arguing that the CL is calculated "correctly" as per how it is coded. What I am arguing is that the forumla is not in accordance with the mathematical model they used to redistribute creatures per the balance in December 2003.

This model is what the entire Combat Rebalance will center around, and the existing BE system does not follow the spirit of it.

2) I have no problem with a BE being able to skew the HAM of a creature. However this skewing should be within a resonable range.

Say a pet has 15000 health + action + mind. Then the BE pet should still have 15000 health + action + mind for it to maintain the same CL. Properly done and with no other changes, this gives a creature 150% of a wild one.

Resistances, especially if they are one of the few that matter such as kinetic, must be considered in the CL at a proper weight.

3) Yes, BEs should be able to make trade-offs, however the relative worth of these needs to be taken into consideration.

If a pet does half the dps, then its survivability (effective HAM) should no more than double. Even that is dubious since it can be paired with other systems (a person with a combat mastery for example) to get a far more effective combination than were no trade-off made.

4) When compared to wild pets, yes. When compared to other combat professions as they exist, no. However all of those are about to be rebalanced to match wild pets as per my point (1).

That leaves BE pets as an anomoly after the Combat Rebalance, and way overpowered.

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The pet given by this recipe, especially with refinement, fails on all four of these points.

1) It does not follow the rebalanced model.
2) Its HAM is not a skewing but an increase. Further its effective HAM is orders of magnitude more.
3) A 60% reduction in dps (improvable with some work) does not warrent an 800% increase in survivablility. At best it should around 160% and that is failing to consider synergies of player combat skill with a tank and free health.
4) After the revamp, this pet will drawf the combat abilities of most players for a minor skill point investment.

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Im a master CH, been one for a very, very long time.

I read this thread with interest , some of the arguments are very thought provoking.

There are a few thiongs that need pointing out here though.

Point 1. The rebelanced model you talk of , was dec 2003, the combat balance you say is the same was not written then.

You , nor I , nor any player barring the corres(such as NancyJ) who were at the summit have any idea what the rebalance has in store.

Educated guesses certainly, but they are our own guesses.

You have numerous times called thses pets 'exploit'.

It is both insulting, and potentially damaging, to accuse another player of exploiting.

Particularly when , as in this case, it is based solely on your opinion of how the crafting system SHOULD work, not how it DOES work.

Words should always be chosen carefully, thats not a lecture, merley some advice for life.

Your calculations are also flawed slightly.

Survivability also has to take into accout how long it would take to kill a mob, therfore how much damage would be taken.

For instance, in the gronda example, the damage it puts out would enable it to kill a given mob twice as fast as this Be pet, thus , being in combat for less time it would take half the damage. Would it not then be safe to assume its actual ham needs to be weighted at twice the BE on in any calculations, if, as you keep saying, you are calculating

'survivability'

If Im wrong, and I do not pretend to be a mathematician, Id be gratful if someone could point out my errors.

A simple CH

Message Edited by ArthurDentOnBria on 09-14-2004 01:10 PM

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Acrod_Novys wrote:

Lurking and laughing, lurking and laughing...

Seems to me we're the single most self-destructive profession in the game. We're makers of the weapons of a crippled profession and we continue to argue amongst ourselves about how various mildly handicapped weapons are too powerful compared to the truly crippled ones.

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Man that's just tooooo funny.

Or sad depending on how you look at it.

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NancyJ wrote:
I would say that
1) CH need all the love they can get
2) Since theres no way to tell which pets are the result of bugs and which fall within the parameters of normal use of the system, without specifically asking the devs about every single recipe, we couldnt exist if we tried to police every creature we make
3)CH need all the love they can get
4) I have a kind of crude method for determining suitability for level, at its core this pet is MH and Sevorrt, which averages out to around cl24 so cl19 isnt too much of a stretch from there.
5) CH need all the love they can get

Message Edited by NancyJ on 09-12-2004 03:40 PM

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Nancy you being the Correspondent of all people should be one to take a stance on the EXPLOIT issue. I also can understand the anger and frustration about the Devs lack of interest of fixing anything aside Jedi, but the argument that CH needs love isnt gonna cut it. If you take into consideration. thats your average level of dna you started with is:

Merek Harvestor : L56
Voritor Dasher : L30
Remmer Dune Scavenger: L20
Sevort : L7x2

give you an average DNA use of 24 for the first generation pet

Your second generation uses 2 L56 and 3 L24 samples for an average of 36.8 levels

In other words this critter should have been MUCH closer to level 36 than level 19.

This is a sad state of the profession when the one person that people are supposed to go fopr for clarification and guidance in the community doesnt goive a damn either!!

More reasons to quit this game and start paying blizzard!!!

Two problems with that argument Lourna. First, you are completely waving your hands of experimentation. If you combine 5 merek harvesters and don't experiment on it, by your logic, you'll end up with a CL 56 creature. Wrong. You'll probably end up with around a CL 30 creature. It would take you at least 6-8 experimentation points to get you back to the original level, and in Nancy's combine she's using only a few on each step. Second, in such creatures, the whole is certainly less than the sum of the parts, and that is quite intentional. If you add one creature with a vulnerability to energy, to another with a vulnerability to acid, you often get a creature that is vulnerable to both acid and energy.

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LournaDoIne wrote:

Nancy you being the Correspondent of all people should be one to take a stance on the EXPLOIT issue. I also can understand the anger and frustration about the Devs lack of interest of fixing anything aside Jedi, but the argument that CH needs love isnt gonna cut it. If you take into consideration. thats your average level of dna you started with is:

Merek Harvestor : L56
Voritor Dasher : L30
Remmer Dune Scavenger: L20
Sevort : L7x2

give you an average DNA use of 24 for the first generation pet

Your second generation uses 2 L56 and 3 L24 samples for an average of 36.8 levels

In other words this critter should have been MUCH closer to level 36 than level 19.

This is a sad state of the profession when the one person that people are supposed to go fopr for clarification and guidance in the community doesnt goive a damn either!!

More reasons to quit this game and start paying blizzard!!!

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