Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: 2nd Gen Armoured CL19's
jhh
Mon Sep 13, 2004 12:02 pm
#27
I managed to get a pet using this recipe down to CL16, and another at CL18. Substitute Vrelt (or any other suitable noobie mob) DNA for the number 3/4/5 slot on the first generation. No intimidate though. =(
Screenshot of the CL18, I forgot to get a pic of the 16: http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=122219
Oddly enough, the CL16 had better stats by about 1500 mind and 700 action. I got a failure on experimentation while doing the 16s prowess and again in mental, but an amazing in both immediately afterwards. Thats probably the cause.
Screenshot of the CL18, I forgot to get a pic of the 16: http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=122219
Oddly enough, the CL16 had better stats by about 1500 mind and 700 action. I got a failure on experimentation while doing the 16s prowess and again in mental, but an amazing in both immediately afterwards. Thats probably the cause.
Message Edited by jhh on 09-13-2004 12:06 AM
ArthurDentOnBria
Mon Sep 13, 2004 12:14 pm
#28
Ok, Nancy's actually has half the dps of a wild CL 19 (14 vs 28). Those of your who argue that Nancy's is "overpowered" are essentially arguing that you believe that kinetic HAM should be given a higher weighting relative to dps then it does currently, and that is an arguable position. In fact Tal-N argued this way back in Jan or Feb or so in a couple of threads but it kind of fell on deaf ears. I don't necessarily disagree with that, but I think it's kind of arbitrary, and for our sakes I'm glad that it is weighted like it is. For example, say you were hunting a creature for meat, you did a search on www.swgcreatures.com and it came up with 2 hits, both which gave an identical amount of meat, both were missionable, and both missions paid the same. One creature had x dps and y HAM, the other had 2x dps and y/3 HAM. Which would you choose to fight? It's kind of 6 of one, half dozen of the other right? Personally, if they both had enough HAM so that they would survive the initial attack of mine and be able to retaliate, I'd probably rather be fighting the one with more HAM and did less damage, but again that's a tough call. But anyhow, I think this is what this argument boils down to and since the CL calculation seems to be consistent, this sort of thing is certainly not a "bug" or "exploit", just simply opinions about how you would implement the CL calculation if it were you doing the implementing.
I'd also just like to point out that we should all be very thankful that this calculation works like it does today (aside from the CL 10 bug) because nearly all our multi-generation pet formulas work on the principal of trading dps for effecitve kinetic (and sometimes other damage types as well) HAM.
Message Edited by ArthurDentOnBria on 09-13-2004 12:27 AM
Seiryuu
Mon Sep 13, 2004 1:28 pm
#29
All your calculations are from the standpoint of kinetic resists only and you are saying that health = HAM.
As long as creatures do only kinetic damage, the vast majority of the game does in fact revolve around what I am saying.
If it wasn't, then there would be no point to making 60% kinetic resistant pets. This thread would never have existed. Do you really think anyone here believes differently? We both know that is not the case. Kinetic is King.
Both of these assumptions are unacceptable and discount the entire point of being a BE. We make tradeoffs, and we make creatures more useful. That's what we do.
There is a difference between improving a pet a reasonable amount and an unbalanced amount.
Yes, BE pets should offer something natural pets don't. Since 50% of the HAM is wasted, let's rebalance that base 5000 to be 7.5k/5k/2.5k. No other changes have been made and right there the pet can statistically take 150% of the damage it could before. I can see adding a few points of resistance or categories it did not have before, but going from 20% to effectively 80% resistance with no change in CL?
So let's look at it a wee bit more objectively ok?
I find it hard to be much more objective than mathmatical forumlas. True I'm not bothering to reverse engineer the exact break-down of Creature Levels, but I think my numbers are a lot more solid than declaring a pet is okay because you want it to be.
effective HAM vs kinetic: 6.8k
Even though you picked the best natural tame, it still shows the discrepancy. (I chose the berserk kahmurra as it was 2nd highest but closer to the rest.)
6.8k versus 50k effective HAM against kinetic.
(We can make it 6.8k versus 100k if we want to throw intimidate in the mix.)
Your numbers against energy and other values are not important because anyone that buys this pet is going to be using it primarily against targets that do kinetic damage, i.e, other creatures. Can you at least admit this? Players are not stupid and neither are we. Please don't insult either of our intelligences by rationalizing about behavior that does not occur.
The full list of tamable CL 19 creatures can be found here. All of them are under the gronda and none are remotely close to this BE pet.
Look, there is no such thing as an overpowered pet anymore.
Yes, there is.
Believe it or not, the Creature Revamp of December 2003 set a baseline using mathematical formulas for power at set Difficulty Levels. Currently wild creatures are the only things that follow this.
Plans are afoot for the Combat Rebalance. It is going to follow these same formulas. That means that creature pets are very likely to become more important. Does anyone remember how everyone complained about creatures running the game before? Pets like this only increase the chances of that happening.
If BE pets are ignored when the changes are made, they will be the only things not conforming to the new system.
As I have already said, for most people the ability to do damage with a pet is not important. The fact that it takes damage is, and an 800% increase in effectiveness at this task is not balanced.
We have a choice to inform the devs and be a part of fixing the system, or wait for their astromech statistics to show them that 10% of the population is once again CH with these BE pets. I think we all know how well they react when they decide to fix game breaking issues. We as a community can deny that there is a problem all we want, but that just ensures we have no say when a reactionary change is implemented to stop it.
CH requires significant skill point investment (in this particular case they were made as a pair to be used together, and the customer does intend to master CH)
A CL 19 pet allows the user to have a 10k HAM, light AR, 60% kinetic resistant pet with three boxes.
The entire CH tree was redistributed and a massive creature nerf implemented because people were using 10k HAM, light AR, 75% kinetic pets (Graul Maulers) with five boxes.
Sorry, I've been through the biggest nerf this game has ever seen. I don't buy this reasoning.
CH's were balanced in December in preparation for the CB, since then their power has sucked in comparision to a player with a maxed out combat template.
So BE pets should not follow the same, or at least similar, rules and instead use ones closer to those that allow for 80% composite armor to dominate?
Being able to make strong pets for CH at least keeps the profession somewhat viable.
I've been a master handler since August 2003. I was a handler in beta. The profession is perfectly viable.
It is not in balance with the rest of the combat professions, but they're about to get what we did nine months ago.
Non-CH pets that are as strong as a CL25 pet should be allow players to effectively gain the defensive perks of the CH class without sacrificing the offensive capabilities of 250 skill points in weapon based combat classes.
These CL 19 pets are not the equivalent of CL 25 wild pets. They are more equivalent to, well, nothing tamable.
At 45% kinetic resistance and armor is the delerious merek avenger at CL 40.
At 40% kinetic and armor are the toxic merek battlelord CL 45 and the arachne widow (rare) at CL 58.
To get these pets, one needs to be a near master and can have one, not three out, and certainly not 3000 (or 0300 which allows one to hold 10+ of these).
IMO its no different than using vendors without being a merchant.
Um, exactly.
Pets of this calibre should require more skill and not trivialize being a master Creature Handler.
As long as creatures do only kinetic damage, the vast majority of the game does in fact revolve around what I am saying.
If it wasn't, then there would be no point to making 60% kinetic resistant pets. This thread would never have existed. Do you really think anyone here believes differently? We both know that is not the case. Kinetic is King.
Both of these assumptions are unacceptable and discount the entire point of being a BE. We make tradeoffs, and we make creatures more useful. That's what we do.
There is a difference between improving a pet a reasonable amount and an unbalanced amount.
Yes, BE pets should offer something natural pets don't. Since 50% of the HAM is wasted, let's rebalance that base 5000 to be 7.5k/5k/2.5k. No other changes have been made and right there the pet can statistically take 150% of the damage it could before. I can see adding a few points of resistance or categories it did not have before, but going from 20% to effectively 80% resistance with no change in CL?
So let's look at it a wee bit more objectively ok?
I find it hard to be much more objective than mathmatical forumlas. True I'm not bothering to reverse engineer the exact break-down of Creature Levels, but I think my numbers are a lot more solid than declaring a pet is okay because you want it to be.
effective HAM vs kinetic: 6.8k
Even though you picked the best natural tame, it still shows the discrepancy. (I chose the berserk kahmurra as it was 2nd highest but closer to the rest.)
6.8k versus 50k effective HAM against kinetic.
(We can make it 6.8k versus 100k if we want to throw intimidate in the mix.)
Your numbers against energy and other values are not important because anyone that buys this pet is going to be using it primarily against targets that do kinetic damage, i.e, other creatures. Can you at least admit this? Players are not stupid and neither are we. Please don't insult either of our intelligences by rationalizing about behavior that does not occur.
The full list of tamable CL 19 creatures can be found here. All of them are under the gronda and none are remotely close to this BE pet.
Look, there is no such thing as an overpowered pet anymore.
Yes, there is.
Believe it or not, the Creature Revamp of December 2003 set a baseline using mathematical formulas for power at set Difficulty Levels. Currently wild creatures are the only things that follow this.
Plans are afoot for the Combat Rebalance. It is going to follow these same formulas. That means that creature pets are very likely to become more important. Does anyone remember how everyone complained about creatures running the game before? Pets like this only increase the chances of that happening.
If BE pets are ignored when the changes are made, they will be the only things not conforming to the new system.
As I have already said, for most people the ability to do damage with a pet is not important. The fact that it takes damage is, and an 800% increase in effectiveness at this task is not balanced.
We have a choice to inform the devs and be a part of fixing the system, or wait for their astromech statistics to show them that 10% of the population is once again CH with these BE pets. I think we all know how well they react when they decide to fix game breaking issues. We as a community can deny that there is a problem all we want, but that just ensures we have no say when a reactionary change is implemented to stop it.
CH requires significant skill point investment (in this particular case they were made as a pair to be used together, and the customer does intend to master CH)
A CL 19 pet allows the user to have a 10k HAM, light AR, 60% kinetic resistant pet with three boxes.
The entire CH tree was redistributed and a massive creature nerf implemented because people were using 10k HAM, light AR, 75% kinetic pets (Graul Maulers) with five boxes.
Sorry, I've been through the biggest nerf this game has ever seen. I don't buy this reasoning.
CH's were balanced in December in preparation for the CB, since then their power has sucked in comparision to a player with a maxed out combat template.
So BE pets should not follow the same, or at least similar, rules and instead use ones closer to those that allow for 80% composite armor to dominate?
Being able to make strong pets for CH at least keeps the profession somewhat viable.
I've been a master handler since August 2003. I was a handler in beta. The profession is perfectly viable.
It is not in balance with the rest of the combat professions, but they're about to get what we did nine months ago.
Non-CH pets that are as strong as a CL25 pet should be allow players to effectively gain the defensive perks of the CH class without sacrificing the offensive capabilities of 250 skill points in weapon based combat classes.
These CL 19 pets are not the equivalent of CL 25 wild pets. They are more equivalent to, well, nothing tamable.
At 45% kinetic resistance and armor is the delerious merek avenger at CL 40.
At 40% kinetic and armor are the toxic merek battlelord CL 45 and the arachne widow (rare) at CL 58.
To get these pets, one needs to be a near master and can have one, not three out, and certainly not 3000 (or 0300 which allows one to hold 10+ of these).
IMO its no different than using vendors without being a merchant.
Um, exactly.
Pets of this calibre should require more skill and not trivialize being a master Creature Handler.
Message Edited by Seiryuu on 09-13-2004 03:35 PM
NancyJ
Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:12 pm
#30
Firstly in your last 2 or 3 quotes you've missed the fact that I was talking about NON-CH pets in those 3 statements.
Secondly you're basing your balance on effective usefulness in PvE whereas Arthurs calculations are based on comparisions with actual wild creatures.
It seems to me as if you're trying to argue that only HAM and Kinetic resists should be taken into consideration when calculating CL.
Yes a DMA has 45% Kinetic + 10K HAM, but thats 10K to Health action and Mind (30k total HAM) whereas this recipe has a combined HAM of about 20K.
The DMA has a dps of 81 I think arthur said mine had a dps of 14.
Thats a significant difference and we all know that dps plays a HUGE part in determining the CL.
As for damage not being important to CH, well I'm a CH/BE/Ranger and damage is VERY important to me. I can get buffed and wear 80% composite but I have no combat skills, excpet CH so my babies better be doing some serious damage if I want to kill anything bigger than yard trash.
Secondly you're basing your balance on effective usefulness in PvE whereas Arthurs calculations are based on comparisions with actual wild creatures.
It seems to me as if you're trying to argue that only HAM and Kinetic resists should be taken into consideration when calculating CL.
Yes a DMA has 45% Kinetic + 10K HAM, but thats 10K to Health action and Mind (30k total HAM) whereas this recipe has a combined HAM of about 20K.
The DMA has a dps of 81 I think arthur said mine had a dps of 14.
Thats a significant difference and we all know that dps plays a HUGE part in determining the CL.
As for damage not being important to CH, well I'm a CH/BE/Ranger and damage is VERY important to me. I can get buffed and wear 80% composite but I have no combat skills, excpet CH so my babies better be doing some serious damage if I want to kill anything bigger than yard trash.
Message Edited by NancyJ on 09-13-2004 10:20 PM
Message Edited by NancyJ on 09-13-2004 10:22 PM
SkyPreacher1
Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:28 pm
#31
Hi Nancy, Sieryu,
I think that in order to CL 19 with armor and those stats you are sacrificing everything else.
I think, so this is IMO, that the CL should be distributed out more evenly over the different stats and that damage output on pets needs to be raised, or that pets can randomly attack something other than kinetic.
Wolf Kima, supposedly strikes "fear" into people with it's savage roar. Well mostly it causes me to break out in laughter but if that attack was mind oriented then yeah that would be cool.
Second is Bull Rancors and Giant Kimos they both have a plague strike that hits randomly, so it can hit mind, action or Health and it ticks at an alarming 500 pts. IF we could incorporate that kind of damage into our pets specials then we would truly have something that would be useful.
As it is most MOBS go for the kinetic so that's all you need from your pet.
Seiryuu
Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:29 pm
#32
Nancy, Why should being a novice CH suddenly invalidate an inbalance?
Um, my calculations are based on an actual wild creatures, too.
It seems to me as if you're trying to argue that only HAM and Kinetic resists should be taken into consideration when calculating CL.
A large portion of it, yes. At least as long as kinetic is the primary resistance in all combat.
I have been a handler for over a year. I have been a "pure" handler and I have been a "combat" handler. I think it safe to say I am qualified to explain how pets function in combat.
Killing a target requires doing damage, and even a wild pet is not good at it. Being able to survive taking damage is far more important. The majority of people have a combat profession to do damage and the pet is only needed to absorb it in return. Fundamentally, pets are external, disembodied armor. (Yes, I realize they can be more than that.)
I won't argue about it anymore unless someone specifically asks me about one of my points. I tried highlighting problem, but as you all want to think everything is okay, fine by me. Have fun and please flood the market with them.
Um, my calculations are based on an actual wild creatures, too.
It seems to me as if you're trying to argue that only HAM and Kinetic resists should be taken into consideration when calculating CL.
A large portion of it, yes. At least as long as kinetic is the primary resistance in all combat.
I have been a handler for over a year. I have been a "pure" handler and I have been a "combat" handler. I think it safe to say I am qualified to explain how pets function in combat.
Killing a target requires doing damage, and even a wild pet is not good at it. Being able to survive taking damage is far more important. The majority of people have a combat profession to do damage and the pet is only needed to absorb it in return. Fundamentally, pets are external, disembodied armor. (Yes, I realize they can be more than that.)
I won't argue about it anymore unless someone specifically asks me about one of my points. I tried highlighting problem, but as you all want to think everything is okay, fine by me. Have fun and please flood the market with them.
NancyJ
Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:33 pm
#33
You're talking about how, in your opinion CL should be calculated. We're talking about how it is calculated.
Which really is two entirely different topics.
Which really is two entirely different topics.
SkyPreacher1
Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:40 pm
#34
Zadokk,
An obscene CL 10 is an exploit to a non CH because he/she has not paid the proper SP to use such a creature.
The CL 19 that Nancy points out and I can use is not an exploit because even if it was at it's proper level it would be around CL 30. I paid the price in time and SP to use it.
But here is the kicker, That CL 19 would be dog meat on most of the MOBS I fight. It would last under 20 seconds. Three of those fighting the MOBs I go against would not gain me any advantage because many of the other resists are non existent.
ArthurDentOnBria
Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:00 pm
#35
Please don't compare these (CL 19) pets to the bugged CL 10 ones. They are miles apart. I think I demonstrated pretty clearly that when you take into account (as the CL system does) all forms of damage, and dps, that Nancy's CL 19 are not at all unreasonable relative to their wild counterparts. If someone wants to make a similar comparison of those merek-harvester derived CL 10's to a lesser plains bol, be my guest, but I think you'll find that the "bugged" CL 10 has much much much higher stats in all areas to the lpb, making that CL calculation clearly a bug.
Spazzers
Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:49 pm
#36
I love it when people impose restrictions on themselves and require others to follow them. If other people don't follow the guidelines they're exploiters. I've read where the devs have said the uber CL10 animals are over powered but they've not said in what way they are over powered, what the standard should be and they've provided no guidelines. Basically animal creation is a crap shoot.
Toexploit one must take anadvantage unjustly for one's own gain. An advantage is a benefit or gain resulting from a course of action or circumstance. To take advantage one must knowingly use a course of action for benefit or gain. Ergo to exploit one must know the advantage exists and that it is unjust to take said advantage.
Nancy's animals are not an exploit. Until there are established in-game guidelines no exploit exists to take advantage of. She did a great job. 
BTW I don't make those uber CL10 animals for personal reasons. I don't call those people that do make them exploiters. Since the devs won't or can't set restrictions when crafting animals we are left to set our own.
Message Edited by Spazzers on 09-13-2004 03:52 PM
Meplorium
Mon Sep 13, 2004 4:50 pm
#37
Well look at it this way, for a CL19 I need scout, two lines in scout, novice CH and 3 more skills. That is 61 skill points. Granted you get some scouts skills in there, which may or may not be useful to you.
I can get comp that is AR1, 80% kin, easially. That is 50% less damage taken than AR1, 60%. For 61 skill points I can be 0034 Rifleman or TKA. I can do an area shot with a rifle that hits 5 animals for around 2k damage every 3-4 seconds, or there abouts, depending an how many animals are in range, damage of the rifle, ect. That still is 2500 dps.
Or I can get a CL19 AR1 60% animal that does 130 points to a single target every 2 seconds.
I have to feel that Nancy is right, that anything that makes CHs more powerful is a good thing, because right now they are way underpowered. Pets are slow, buggy and hard to use because of that. Rifles are fast, do lots of damage and never get stuck or slow down while I zip off on my swoop.
So for the skill points this animal is underpowered, even though it is way out of balance compared to wild animals. What would be a good power for master CH? I am guessing 1800-2000 damage, area attack like force strike would be good. That would be in line with the skill points used compared to the power others have spending the skill points differently.
It isn't so much that this pet is over powered as the CL70 are way under powered. That is the core issue here. I doubt the CB will fix this.
NancyJ
Tue Sep 14, 2004 12:02 am
#38
I'm still crossing my fingers for 10.1 (scheduled as correspondant issues)
If not, then I shall show them what my little precious pets will do to their combat balance
If not, then I shall show them what my little precious pets will do to their combat balance
Bendi_James
Tue Sep 14, 2004 12:08 am
#39
Yay!!! I have had my coffee, I have my contacts inand I am among the living...again. Sorry for the oversized font in previous posts....I really am close to being blind...I had trouble seeing the big font too.....lol.
I just wanted to say how terribly grotesque it is to hijack a cool recipe thread with all the morals and ethics BS of making pets.
Where were we?
Oh yeah, 2nd Gen Armoured CL19's......like it says in the title.