Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: The infamous CL10!!!
SkyPreacher1
Fri Sep 03, 2004 6:42 pm
#40
/agree
This is whatcauses the rifts between CH and BE where there should be none. And the fault is not the BE's or the CH's it is the responsibility of the development team to come up with a solution.
So on the one hand you have CL 10 pets that are really not right, but are right because they pass the faulty check that doesn't really work.
But on the other hand you have CH's and some BE's who thing it is wrong.
I am not sure about this and maybe some of the other correspondents know, but I suspect that if they balance CH at all in the pet department one of the things that could stand some massive help is pet specials. IF strong poison did the DOT damage of say 120 instead of 10 then the pets really do become more deadly.
I don't know the coding at all, but I suspect of all the professions BE is the most code intensive profession and probably the one that is giving Devs some serious headaches.
Again moderate poison if it was decent poison is really fine by me on CL 10 BE pets. But then let strong poison and Disease really rock.
Nancy I don't know if you have been keeping track but is there anyway you could suggest that we BE's be able to tamper with pets secondary stats. That would be very very good.
Amana
Fri Sep 03, 2004 7:20 pm
#41
Well I feel that the type of attack a creature does should not deligate its creature lvl. If this happened you would see alot of unhappy non-ch owners. I mean the max dmg I have seen done by my pets with medium poison is like 70 max and that ticks for maybe 5 or 6 times then it is gone. I have to sit there and shout to the creature SA 1 like 6 times before it will actually poison the creature. Course I sold that pet later one 
. I will still keep searching for a way to make the best non-ch creature I can. I had a perfect creature set up that had strong poison and strong disease but it kept going over lvl 10 for some reason and ended up being at like lvl 12 or so it ended up being destroyed through so many generation creation . O well that is the price that I pay for trying to lvl him down a notch or two 
.
. I will still keep searching for a way to make the best non-ch creature I can. I had a perfect creature set up that had strong poison and strong disease but it kept going over lvl 10 for some reason and ended up being at like lvl 12 or so it ended up being destroyed through so many generation creation . O well that is the price that I pay for trying to lvl him down a notch or two .
Zapper_Weisman
Sat Sep 04, 2004 12:40 am
#42
I still think the "ubers" running around are just fine. They cant kill or even do much damage by themselves, which is the goal of a CH's pet, which nonCH's should not be able to have. The only real purpose the ubers serve is to make great tanks, which they do. If a factional nonCH player can have their factional things tank for them, or any player with a nice friend, why cant players without faction and or nicefriends have creature tanks? The very fact that they dont do a large amount of damage in comparison to wild animals, and are generally slow in attack speed (I have yet to see onebetter than2.1) puts them on par with any other things used to tank. So until the devs ban factional perks and friends, they will get a loud yelling at from me if they do anything to nerf these beautiful nonCh pets.
Zapper_Weisman
Sat Sep 04, 2004 12:50 am
#43
The point that the CH's are making is this, you invest zero SP in CH and yet through BE pets you are able to control a pet that is equivalent in certain areas to a CL 25 pet. That, no matter how you cut it is wrong.
You're forgetting that the degreeto which wecan make better nonCH pets, is the same degree to which we can make better CH pets. If a CH puts out the money to get a BE pet, he expects that advantage. Why should nonCH be any different? lvl10 BE's may be equivilant to lvl25 wilds, but a lvl25 BE is easily equivalent to a lvl50 wild. If they nerf anything and are fair about it, they have to nerf our abilities not the pets themselves, this will cause a MASSIVE decrease in all pets, CH or nonCH. Of course, when it comes to BE, the devs seem not to be concerned with fairness...
SkyPreacher1
Sat Sep 04, 2004 7:14 am
#44
So basically Amana you are saying it's all right to be able to use CH level type pets without investing any Skillpoints in the tree.
I see you are a Rifleman, so would it be ok for me, without investing any Skill points in the rifleman's tree to use the T21 and say headshot, or conceal? It doesn't work all the time but often enough.
But that's not far and besides these are just pets. No they aren't just pets, for a number of CH's their pets are their weapons, and you would be in favor of allowing anyone to access my weapons without taking the time to earn the right to use my weapons. Same for Commando, TKA, fencer, swordsman all the combat branches.
So I believe the solution then is simple. If you want a pet, outside of a mount you must invest the Skill points in the CH tree. No non-CH pets, there the end of the debate. All mounts will have 200 HAM, cl 5, no resists, no specials. Only lesser bolles and kaaduus will be non-ch mounts and only CH's may tame them and train them. Kaadus and lesser bols would be taken out of the BE tree and replaced with two other CH level pets. Maybe the greater sludge panther and dragonets.
I don't think there is enough unity on what a level 10 pet should be even among BE's so if we can not come up with a solution on our own, then do we want the Devs to impose that from above? If the CH forum saw what you were saying here they would be very upset. The whole reason we are not viable is because of the over powering of non-CH pets. So how are we as BE's going to come to some concensus on this before the Devs pull the trigger?
Kevm
Sat Sep 04, 2004 7:23 am
#45
SkyPreacher1 wrote:
I don't think there is enough unity on what a level 10 pet should be even among BE's so if we can not come up with a solution on our own, then do we want the Devs to impose that from above?
What do you thikn is going to happen? Once the CL code gets fixed the proper CL 10 will then be 'imposed from above'. This is the way it should have been the entire time.
The whole reason we are not viable is because of the over powering of non-CH pets.
I disagree. The low viability of the CH profession is mostly due to fact that the creature balance went in long before the combat balance. I think the reasons why we do not see more CH's is because of this low viability, and partially because of these types of pets.
Blaming the viability problems of the CH profession on these non-ch pets is very short sighted.
Amana
Sat Sep 04, 2004 9:24 am
#46
What i'm saying is that there needs to be a tanking pet for the non-ch class. The only closet thing I came to a tank for a freaking pet was using my infamous giant dalyrake and dalyrake matriarch samples to create something with intimidation and mild poison with a ranged attack. He had about 60-70 dmg or so with 2.17 attack speed and about .40 or so to hit with maybe 1k HAM if it was lucky. What i'm saying is alteast let a non-ch pet be about 2 to 3k HAM so there is some ground for it to be viable for people to use pets. Or what we can do is see the death in the pet industry as far as non-ch clients go and make it so you can have a 500 HAM pet with no resists nearly 2.5 attack speed maybe intimidation and stunning strike any other attack throws it out of the non-ch realm .20 to .30 to hit. with no ranged attack. I read one post were a person felt our class profession should not even exist . If I knew what I was getting into when I started on this road I would have become something else .
. If I knew what I was getting into when I started on this road I would have become something else .
Novock
Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:25 am
#47
As a BE and business man 
I have to pose the question this way. Why would anyone buy my cl10 creature with stats as low as 15% kinetic resist 3k HAM and a cap of 100 dmg when they can simply go and buy a probot with 40% resist to everything 0.75 speed .41 to hit dmg 172-182 HAm is 3184 (these the stats are off my probot I hear better ones can be made) From a business point of view if you put such caps as you're suggesting on the cl10 pets what you have is only the use for mounts but with that low of HAM I don't think many would be flocking to buy mounts. If you cap these pets to low you are going to make our market simply CHs, and they are arguing now to be able to tame as powerful of pets as we can make. So BEs are arguing to make our pets less powerful per lvl, CHs are arguing to make their tamed ones more powerful per lvl...
I have to pose the question this way. Why would anyone buy my cl10 creature with stats as low as 15% kinetic resist 3k HAM and a cap of 100 dmg when they can simply go and buy a probot with 40% resist to everything 0.75 speed .41 to hit dmg 172-182 HAm is 3184 (these the stats are off my probot I hear better ones can be made) From a business point of view if you put such caps as you're suggesting on the cl10 pets what you have is only the use for mounts but with that low of HAM I don't think many would be flocking to buy mounts. If you cap these pets to low you are going to make our market simply CHs, and they are arguing now to be able to tame as powerful of pets as we can make. So BEs are arguing to make our pets less powerful per lvl, CHs are arguing to make their tamed ones more powerful per lvl... now i hate to be odd man out on this one but what exactly is the harm in the cl10 pets anyway, that is why are we asking for them to be lowered (we must be the only profession arguing for less power :smileyvery-happy
. Is it to help droid engineers? Is it to help Ch's? If its one of those two I guess I'm in more favor of the argument. However if its simply a state of thinking its to much of power advantage then the statement really doesn't make sense. Seeming a CL10 pet is universal then anyone and everyone could have one so the advantge is null. But one thing that you haven't hit at is these pets do give someone who has really no fighting ability (crafter/merchants/dancers) some defensewhen they check factories or harvesters. Maybe not a major point but one to consider.
. Is it to help droid engineers? Is it to help Ch's? If its one of those two I guess I'm in more favor of the argument. However if its simply a state of thinking its to much of power advantage then the statement really doesn't make sense. Seeming a CL10 pet is universal then anyone and everyone could have one so the advantge is null. But one thing that you haven't hit at is these pets do give someone who has really no fighting ability (crafter/merchants/dancers) some defensewhen they check factories or harvesters. Maybe not a major point but one to consider.Now I agree some of these have become to powerful but according to a lot of these suggested stats even the VD HP formula is then to powerful or atleast would have to much HAM and then what are u going to do with generational pets. I can make a powerful lvl 10 pet and never use MH DNA the "bugged" DNA. I would just pose a bit of caution when asking the DEVs to actually nerf our profession because..... they'll doit..... they love to nerf stuff. But if they nerf it to low we won't get em to bring it back up. I personally use the the VD HP formula to make my lvl 10 pets and i get decent money for em and believe them to be decent pets. They are weaker in power then droidsfor eitherdmg or for tanksbut they are atleast have enough health to be a 2 shot kill versus a 1 shot kill for mounts.
Zapper_Weisman
Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:59 am
#48
Not really. a CL25 to a CH is made to survive and kill. The fact that these pets are missing the killing aspect, automatically lowers their pet status and use.
Kevm wrote:
Therefore comparing their ability to do their job ('tank'), and ability to survie (effective HAM vs Kinetic), makes themcomparable toapprox awild CL 25.
Message Edited by Kevm on 09-03-2004 08:24 PM
NancyJ
Sat Sep 04, 2004 11:02 am
#49
Zapper_Weisman wrote:Not really. a CL25 to a CH is made to survive and kill. The fact that these pets are missing the killing aspect, automatically lowers their pet status and use.
Kevm wrote:Therefore comparing their ability to do their job ('tank'), and ability to survie (effective HAM vs Kinetic), makes themcomparable toapprox awild CL 25.Message Edited by Kevm on 09-03-2004 08:24 PM
For a levelling CH, all the pet has to do is survive after it gets 1 hit on the target.
Regardless of how much damage the pet does, as long as it hits once it jsut has to be alive at the end of the fight to get full CH xp.
Zapper_Weisman
Sat Sep 04, 2004 11:04 am
#50
Novock wrote:
now i hate to be odd man out on this one but what exactly is the harm in the cl10 pets anyway, that is why are we asking for them to be lowered (we must be the only profession arguing for less power :smileyvery-happy
/applaud
I am personally all crafting (MBE/Tailor), and my factories and house are on dant and tend to be in an area with mokk missions spawns oddly. I used to be MCH, so that was no problem, but when I dropped that to take up Tailor, I was having to fly around my house for 5 minutes to get the mokks to stop agroing me so I could get into my house. I've since gotten int he habit or calling my CL10, peacing and if one agros, sending my pet and peacing again. I get in safely, though my pets vitality is rapidly dropping. But, he's saved me from being killed a few times this way.
Zapper_Weisman
Sat Sep 04, 2004 11:06 am
#51
NancyJ wrote:
For a levelling CH, all the pet has to do is survive after it gets 1 hit on the target.
Regardless of how much damage the pet does, as long as it hits once it jsut has to be alive at the end of the fight to get full CH xp.
Its not the leveling CHs that are complaining about these pets, its the masters. They want to always draw this comparison, but it does not apply to them. When leveling CH, the pet typically didnt matter, ranged attack did. I tanked, the pet sat back and took no damage. Also, the plains outside theed give you a CH IV skill in an hour is you run around. I dont think any nerf to our pets should be put forward on the ground of helping leveling CHs.
NancyJ
Sat Sep 04, 2004 11:10 am
#52
We're not talking about a 'nerf' we're talking about a fix. the system is broken, a fix is inevitable (eventually).