CUEmu - Thread Posts

Amana

Thu Sep 02, 2004 7:01 am

I feel that we should come up with an idea for a semi reasonable non-ch pet that we can create and duplicate without problems. I think that having about 12k to experiment in HAM as we please is good I mean we want atleast 4k HAM no armor atleast some resistances like 15 max to all 2.00 max attack speed (honestly can't say that I know how the to-hit ratio works). Any special attacks that we want (this I stress most of all cause it is hurtfull to say we can't have non-ch creatures with strong poison and/or disease) with ranged attack. My idea of a good pet is something like this

Razor Cat

4k Health

4k Action

4k Mind

Kinetic R. 10

Energy R. 10

Heat R. 10

Cold R. 10

Acid R. 10

Stun R. 10

Lightsaber vuln

Attack speed 2.00

To-Hit .45 or so (don't know how it works

)

Special attack 1: strong poison

Special attack 2: strong disease

Ranged attack: yes

That would be like the extreme limit for non-ch creature. It offers a possible tank for a player if need be and allows us to create hi end pets and anything beyond that would be considered ch.

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Kevm

Thu Sep 02, 2004 7:34 am

#28

Amana wrote:

Any special attacks that we want (this I stress most of all cause it is hurtfull to say we can't have non-ch creatures with strong poison and/or disease) with ranged attack. My idea of a good pet is something like this

Razor Cat

4k Health

4k Action

4k Mind

Kinetic R. 10

Energy R. 10

Heat R. 10

Cold R. 10

Acid R. 10

Stun R. 10

Lightsaber vuln

Attack speed 2.00

To-Hit .45 or so (don't know how it works )

Special attack 1: strong poison

Special attack 2: strong disease

Ranged attack: yes

I completely disagree. Strong poison and strong disease do not belong in non-ch pets. The lowest strong poison creature in the wild is CL 22 (thats 120% higher than a CL 10) and the lowest strong disease creature in the wild is CL 38 (that's 280% higher than a CL 10). Those specials are just too powerful for non-ch pets.

Now if you want to talk medium posion and disease that's fine. those can be found in creatures as low as CL 12 and 13

Kreegan Lirpa
MBE - Cairdeas City - Wanderhome

Kreegan's BE Pets and Tissues - Cairdeas City, Naboo (7378 -6482)
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Kevm

Thu Sep 02, 2004 8:06 am

#29

GMANHNC wrote:

Kevm,

Is CL affected by specials?

Not that I've noticed myself or seen posted here. But my comment about strong poison and strong disease is on the basis that we should be able to make pets that are 'better' than creatures in the wild for a given CL. Most of us who have been here a while have heard of the '15% stronger' that's been thrown around. I think 15% might be a little low, but even 50% stronger in the CL 10 department gives you a CL 15 'wild' which still do not have strong poison or strong disease. Specials that can only be found in CL 20 and higher in the wildI think are too powerful to be given to non-CH pets.

Given the fact that specials do not affect the CL of the clone, I doubt anything will be added to prevent these specials from doing into non-ch pets, but I think saying we 'have' to have the ability to use these specials is what got me.

Now low level CH (upper teens+)pets I think are a different story since the person has now expended skill points to obtain a creature with such a strong special.

Message Edited by Kevm on 09-02-2004 10:09 AM

Kreegan Lirpa
MBE - Cairdeas City - Wanderhome

Kreegan's BE Pets and Tissues - Cairdeas City, Naboo (7378 -6482)
Kreegan's Pet Meds - Right outside Coronet on the Map!

Dalmartynn

Thu Sep 02, 2004 8:07 am

#30

Amana wrote:

Any special attacks that we want (this I stress most of all cause it is hurtfull to say we can't have non-ch creatures with strong poison and/or disease) with ranged attack. My idea of a good pet is something like this

Razor Cat

4k Health

4k Action

4k Mind

Kinetic R. 10

Energy R. 10

Heat R. 10

Cold R. 10

Acid R. 10

Stun R. 10

Lightsaber vuln

Attack speed 2.00

To-Hit .45 or so (don't know how it works )

Special attack 1: strong poison

Special attack 2: strong disease

Ranged attack: yes

I completely disagree. Strong poison and strong disease do not belong in non-ch pets. The lowest strong poison creature in the wild is CL 22 (thats 120% higher than a CL 10) and the lowest strong disease creature in the wild is CL 38 (that's 280% higher than a CL 10). Those specials are just too powerful for non-ch pets.

Now if you want to talk medium posion and disease that's fine. those can be found in creatures as low as CL 12 and 13

/appluad Amana

Great compromise. Not too powerful, yet not completely worthless. The poison special is clearly a debateable, but not here. If you don't feel s.p. or s.d. belong on a non ch. Post a template with the max allowable special combo for a CL 10 or below.

Dalmartynn (MCH/MBE/RM)
Dalynn (MS/MF/TKA)
MAJ, RA
NAE, Commanding

Zadokk

Thu Sep 02, 2004 8:14 am

#31

Strong poison is weak and the diseaseisnt much stronger, I don't see a problem having them for non-ch pets. I would object to things such as poison spray and plague strike it non-ch pets, thats if it were possible.

Acrod_Novys

Thu Sep 02, 2004 9:16 am

#32

mmmm, here goes my unpopular opinion. I don't think close comparison with wild creatures is relevant, because the 'pet version' of nearly any wild creature is too inefficient for real use in any scenario.

I contend that the vast majority of CH players at this point are not in the profession to be efficient... or often even effective... at combat with those skills, but rather because they like having and controlling pets, period.

Furthur, the combination of these two observations yields that anyone wanting a non-trivial pet must get one bio-engineered. I mean this in a rather extreme sense, as the process of killing anything significant with any wild creature is arduous at best, foolish in general. To reiterate my basic point: To provide useful pets, BE must be able to improve stats CONSIDERABLY from the wild version.

We LOVE our numbers in BE, but I think we sometimes lose the big picture. I hope this isn't taken personally, but Kevm provides a good example: he says "The lowest strong poison creature in the wild is CL 22 (thats 120% higher than a CL 10)". Now, anyone that's used poison specials on a pet probably realizes they dont' have a huge impact in the death of your enemy, "strong" poisonvariants included. I have seen dozens of posts in these forums citing things like this however, which the basis of "wild CL ratings are good and should be used as a model", which I believe to be faulty (see above).

Now, I realize I'm a bit off topic here, so I'll say this in regards to the elite CL 10's: I agree, they should come down alright. I've gotten to thinking that the CL formula doesn't weight the HAM bars appropriately at all (Ever get the feeling that it looks for the 'lowest HAM bar' and and uses that to knock CL down?), and frankly I think that alone might fix the situation to the appropriate degree (no more using 4k mind pools to fool it into accepting 11k health pools).

One thing's for sure however, if the majority of the "CL 10 pet models" I've seen in this topic were used to determine a CL revamp, non-ch pets would be about as popular as droids: they wouldn't be. Perhaps here I'd say that if perfect balance means uselessness to the player, then the balance shouldn't be attained.

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°Acrod Novys - MBE°°°°°°°°°°°°/way 812 -4692 Coro°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
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T

ArthurDentOnBria

Thu Sep 02, 2004 10:22 am

#33

Zadokk wrote:

then maybe the cl20s are overpowered too? the lowest wild pet with armour is the riverside sulfur mynock which is level 33 - and even that is vulnerable to kinetic lol.

I think the CL 20's are, in general a good example of something that is not overpowered. Of course it depends on what recipe you use, but I think mine generally come out something like:

CL 21

effective HAM against kinetic (averaging health/action/mind): 30k

effective HAM against energy (averaging health/action/mind): 6k

dps: 15

The compare it to a "wild" CL 21

bocatt:

effective HAM against kinetic: 8k

effective HAM against energy: 8k

dps: 35

So you can see that I sacrifice the dps and the HAM vs energy to boost the HAM vs kinetic, and of course skew the HAM so that it has more health than action or mind, and to me this is a good example of a "legit" tradeoff (you could almost think of it as a "pet stat migration"). My animal is more useful then a bocatt in many cases (for tanking) but arguably no more powerful. This is why I have a real hard time justifying the CL 10's though, because they are often much much higher than wild CL 10's in all areas.

Personally, I just wish that they'd go back to making CL 15 the non-ch standard, and then make that CL meaningful again by bringing BE pets and droids in line with that. I think at CL 15 we'd be able to make some real nice "legit" pets that would certainly not be overpowered in todays world of buff 'n brandy. I still miss the "old" days when we were making 3k HAM/20% kinetic/300 damage kahmurras for non-ch

Message Edited by ArthurDentOnBria on 09-02-2004 10:37 AM

ArthurDent - former Bio Engineer, Tailor, and Droid Engineer
Account cancelled 7/8/05 due to game breaking bugs in these professions that have been neglected for FAR too long. Last day July 27 2005
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SkyPreacher1

Thu Sep 02, 2004 7:05 pm

#34

Hi annatova,

I don't want to nerf creature power anymore. As a MCH what I would like to see is non-ch pets being non-ch. If a non-ch player can control, what is in effect, a CL 20+ without having to expend any skillpoints to attain the ability, meaning becoming a CH, then that totally destroys any reason to be a CH and undermines our whole profession.

I remember my first non-ch pet, a guf Drolg. It was a wonderful pet, back in July of last year but now it wouldn't last long but also then Non-ch players were allowed CL 15 creatures, that also changed.

My argument here in this forum as both Master BE and Master CH is that as a CH I am looking for good pets. Suppose you took the time and energy to work on some really good CL 20 to 23's. Those would sell to Master CH's because it would in effect, allow him to have out 3 CL 35 or so pets. We become very viable when that happens.

Next is the very high end pets. I love having CL 65-70 level pets. For some reason ferocity, cleverness etc. is great in the high end pets and I have had my pets stand and duel a nightsister to the death. Again I think that if we BE's could adjust the secondary HAM stats on pets we would produce pets that would actually tank and help destroy some high end MOBS.

I posted earlier that I took out my CL 65 pet and had a Doc buff it's secondary stats and together we went through nightsister like crazy and as long as the buff lasted the pet did not take very much damage. To a large extent that is what I think we as BE's should be asking for in our creature creation a way to engineer the secondary stats, or a way to "slice" the secondary stats of wild or deed pets.

Those are just my thoughts.

....and then no matter how hard we get nerfed, we still keep CH because we are still some of the coolest characters on the game.

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annatova

Fri Sep 03, 2004 12:21 am

#35

One thing's for sure however, if the majority of the "CL 10 pet models" I've seen in this topic were used to determine a CL revamp, non-ch pets would be about as popular as droids: they wouldn't be. Perhaps here I'd say that if perfect balance means uselessness to the player, then the balance shouldn't be attained.

/totallyagree

Remember you have to have a useful something to sell if you're a crafter (which includes us BE's). If you want to sell anything other than tissues, you have to vend something that is at least useful.

90% of everyone out there is non-CH, which is 90% of our customer base for crafted creatures (in terms of volume). If a MCH wants a better level25 creature - go to a BE, thats why we're here anyway right!? Why should we ever compare our merchandise to naturals?People pay for what we do. Think about the immense benefit AS's give to their customers? without armor you're dead.When I compare the AS benefit level towhat we offer I don't see it. I think pets are nerfed enough as it is. I completely don't understand why you want to lower creature power even further? I want to see everyone running around with at least a BE'd Durni or something.

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NancyJ

Fri Sep 03, 2004 2:19 pm

#36

Zapper_Weisman wrote:
The point that the CH's are making is this, you invest zero SP in CH and yet through BE pets you are able to control a pet that is equivalent in certain areas to a CL 25 pet. That, no matter how you cut it is wrong.
You're forgetting that the degreeto which wecan make better nonCH pets, is the same degree to which we can make better CH pets. If a CH puts out the money to get a BE pet, he expects that advantage. Why should nonCH be any different? lvl10 BE's may be equivilant to lvl25 wilds, but a lvl25 BE is easily equivalent to a lvl50 wild. If they nerf anything and are fair about it, they have to nerf our abilities not the pets themselves, this will cause a MASSIVE decrease in all pets, CH or nonCH. Of course, when it comes to BE, the devs seem not to be concerned with fairness...

Thats not entirely true. Because of the DNA sampling caps the proportion at which we can make something better is not even. At CL70 the pets we make are not much 'better' or more powerful than a mutant rancor which is CL75 in terms of percentage so at the top end we're talking approx 10-15% better but at the low end you're looking at something like 250% better. (if you approximate those stats to a CL25)

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Zapper_Weisman

Fri Sep 03, 2004 4:02 pm

#37

Message Edited by Zapper_Weisman on 09-08-2004 05:07 AM

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NancyJ

Fri Sep 03, 2004 4:38 pm

#38

Zapper_Weisman wrote:
lvl10 BE's may be equivilant to lvl25 wilds,

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Kevm

Fri Sep 03, 2004 5:41 pm

#39

Zapper_Weisman wrote:

Thats not entirely true. Because of the DNA sampling caps the proportion at which we can make something better is not even. At CL70 the pets we make are not much 'better' or more powerful than a mutant rancor which is CL75 in terms of percentage so at the top end we're talking approx 10-15% better but at the low end you're looking at something like 250% better. (if you approximate those stats to a CL25)

That is true, but I personally dont agree that the lvl10s are equal to lvl25s. People look at ham and the 60 kinetic, and fail to see the slow attack speed, vulnerabilities to everything else, and the bad to-hit ratings. If you want all the math on how it balances out to look at my post "A Treatise Uber CL10 Validity"

'Other resists' mean absolutely nothing in PVE and pets this low are never used in PVP. These pets are also used to 'tank' for combat players not kill things on their own,For these reasons kinetic resists areeverything. Everything you mentioned, vulnerabilities to everything but kinetic, slow attack speeds, bad to-hit, all mean nothing when all the pet is used for is to get the initial agro so the player can kill the mob without itgoing agroon them.

Therefore comparing their ability to do their job ('tank'), and ability to survie (effective HAM vs Kinetic), makes themcomparable toapprox awild CL 25.

Message Edited by Kevm on 09-03-2004 08:24 PM

Kreegan Lirpa
MBE - Cairdeas City - Wanderhome

Kreegan's BE Pets and Tissues - Cairdeas City, Naboo (7378 -6482)
Kreegan's Pet Meds - Right outside Coronet on the Map!

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