Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: seems we are not a real crafting profession in some chef eyes :(
sciguyCO wrote:Out of curiousity, what would work for you guys as a balanced partnership? Would you sell a schematic for the "future profit" price (what you could've earned with those 40 crates minus resource/factory costs that you're now passing on to the chef)? Would you trade actual tissues (not schematics) for resources?I think the schematic trading situation comes up from a few main things:
- Tissues are considered a "must have" for chefs, rather than an optional enhancement.
- Chefs will always have good quality flora and almost always have good quality meats for their own crafting. Since we deal directly with combat players, we can often find "contract hunters" more easily (at least that's been my impression).
- Food and tissues are manufactured in the same factory; so a chef doesn't have to invest in a new one just for tissues like they would if they were getting trim schematics from a tailor.
- Due to differences between tissue and food manufacturing times, it seems to be extremely difficult for a BE to keep up with the demand from more than one or two chefs.
Getting cheap/free schematics (either from a BE player, picking up Chef + BE, or a BE alt) is seen as a simple way to cut costs and streamline the manufacturing pipeline. Although some chefs incorrectly look at those tissues as "freebies", not taking into account the time, resource and factory costs they've taken on rather than letting a BE handle them. Going Chef/BE leaves very few extra skill points to do non-crafting content. And the players who get an alt account completely baffle me: why pay an extra real-life $15 a month to save a few hundred in-game credits per tissue?
Tissue crafting is just as much "real crafting" as any other profession. Unfortunately, you're stuck with a limited market: making components for other crafters. And pet crafting is a whole different level, I've thought several times about starting a new character and going BE to try it out, but it looks a little intimidating.
I would trade additives schematics for food/drink schematics, its just finding all high quality resoruces for the food I want may be difficult (especially as many of them I will definately not have at hand and will require weeks or even months to acquire). However, if they said to me that they would give me the price of the additives retail in exchange for food at retail price (i.e. 1m credit's worth of additives for 1m credit's worth of food) then I would happy to do that. I've only ever sold one schematic and that was for 100k less than the retail price of additives (and they supplied the res).
Spazzers,
The way I interpret the intentions of those that price their schematics in such a way (1.2mil) is that they are certainly not trying to maximize their schematic-selling profit, but rather trying to protect their market for such products. Thedesired reaction is not "wow, awesome, I'll take 10 of those" but rather it's "/sigh alright I'll just buy the stupid tissues then rather than the schematic".
Spazzers wrote:
The highlighted sentence above is something I believe everyone forgets, not just the chef. If a BE crafts a schematic and sells it to a chef for 1.2 mil the chef doubled their cost for tissues. The 20K meat and the flora still has a value and the chef incurs that cost. That value isn't zero just because the chef owns it and not the BE. The chef has to incorporate that value into the cost of the tissues as well as the cost of the schematic. In this light, pure economics would say the chef is a fool for paying such a high price for a schematic. They're better off selling the meat as a raw resource to the BE and buying the finished product back from the BE. So you must ask yourself, as a BE, what do you value your schematics at and still be able to sell them.
Message Edited by Zigabob on 03-17-2005 03:57 PM
"pester me more and i'll kill your factional bases!"
ok so it doesn't REALLY work, but i love the base takedown mini-game...imo it's the 2nd most interesting thing this game has to offer, only after pet crafting (which is really strange because looking back the base takedown mini-game ISN'T very complex at all...yet it's so very amusing)
Grozzer Agoutt
Kauri
MBE/Sentinel
I've been asked literally 100's of times for schematics, and I've accomodated the chef exactly 1 time, and that time I had a backpack filled with BSN-additives, berries, fruits, large glasses, alcohol etc just waiting for him. Recognize those? Yep, I got a brandy schematic back in return 
Seriously though, I can fully understand some of the frustration that a chef must feel trying to get a steady supply of an important ingredient in my food. But knowing what I know about BE's, if I was a chef on a server where I wasn't a BE, I'd be trying to cut a long-term deal with a BE, either offering trade of food crates for additive crates (3:1 or so) or I'd be trying to work out some kind of profit sharing arrangement. Coming to some kind of understanding with the BE about the value of materials used, and workable profit margin for both parties. Trying to go the "buy from lowest priced vendor" route we all know is problematic, and schematicbuying is predatory in my view. The actual details about who supplies the meat and who does the factory runs are details that can be worked out, but it is the pricipal of partnership and sharing that is key imo. Going on an on about how easy it is to make a schematic, and how worthless the act of doing that is, and how you know a guy, who knows a guy, who does it for free is not going to make you any friends, that's for sure.
Also, it's usually good if you are going to plead poverty, to not throw millions and millions of credits around on your galaxy trade forum 
sciguyCO wrote:
Out of curiousity, what would work for you guys as a balanced partnership? Would you sell a schematic for the "future profit" price (what you could've earned with those 40 cratesminus resource/factory costs that you're now passing on to the chef)? Would you trade actual tissues (not schematics) for resources?
I think the schematic trading situation comes up from a few main things:
- Tissues are considered a "must have" for chefs, rather than an optional enhancement.
- Chefs will always have good quality flora and almost always have good quality meats for their own crafting. Since we deal directly with combat players, we can often find "contract hunters" more easily (at least that's been my impression).
- Food and tissues are manufactured in the same factory; so a chef doesn't have to invest in a new one just for tissues like they would if they were getting trim schematics from a tailor.
- Due to differences between tissue and food manufacturing times, it seems to be extremely difficult fora BE to keep up with the demand from more than one or two chefs.
Getting cheap/free schematics (either from a BE player, picking up Chef + BE, or a BEalt) is seen as a simple way to cut costs and streamline the manufacturing pipeline. Although some chefs incorrectly look at those tissues as "freebies", not taking into account the time, resource and factory costs they've taken on rather than letting a BE handle them. Going Chef/BE leaves very few extra skill points to do non-crafting content. And the players who get an alt account completely baffle me: why pay an extra real-life $15 a month to save a few hundred in-game credits per tissue?
Tissue crafting is just as much "real crafting" as any other profession. Unfortunately, you're stuck with a limited market: making components for other crafters. And pet crafting is a whole different level, I've thought several times about starting a new character and going BE to try it out, but it looks a little intimidating.
Message Edited by ArthurDentOnBria on 03-17-2005 12:08 PM
sciguyCO wrote:
Out of curiousity, what would work for you guys as a balanced partnership? Would you sell a schematic for the "future profit" price (what you could've earned with those 40 cratesminus resource/factory costs that you're now passing on to the chef)? Would you trade actual tissues (not schematics) for resources?
*edit.
Getting cheap/free schematics (either from a BE player, picking up Chef + BE, or a BEalt) is seen as a simple way to cut costs and streamline the manufacturing pipeline. Although some chefs incorrectly look at those tissues as "freebies", not taking into account the time, resource and factory costs they've taken on rather than letting a BE handle them. Going Chef/BE leaves very few extra skill points to do non-crafting content. And the players who get an alt account completely baffle me: why pay an extra real-life $15 a month to save a few hundred in-game credits per tissue?
A tailor creates a schematic for trim and gives it to a chef so they can make crates of brandy. The chef's end product obviously is worth a large amount of money but without the trim there is no container. Should the tailor charge a lot for that schematic?
The highlighted sentence above is something I believe everyone forgets, not just the chef. If a BE crafts a schematic and sells it to a chef for 1.2 mil the chef doubled their cost for tissues. The 20K meat and the flora still has a value and the chef incurs that cost. That value isn't zero just because the chef owns it and not the BE. The chef has to incorporate that value into the cost of the tissues as well as the cost of the schematic. In this light, pure economics would say the chef is a fool for paying such a high price for a schematic. They're better off selling the meat as a raw resource to the BE and buying the finished product back from the BE. So you must ask yourself, as a BE, what do you value your schematics at and still be able to sell them. Look at what your normal profit margin would be and that can help determine the value of the schematic. Don't make the mistake of looking at the total retail price of a full run of tissues. The vast majority of the cost has already been incurred by the chef.
Let us look at market share now. If a chef can't find a BE to supply them with finished product how am I removing market share by selling a schematic? There are variable to this question everyone must consider. Is the chef just lazy and saw me running by, screamed "hey you there, blue guy with the giant eyes, make me a schematic and be snappy about it." Did the chef look around their server and couldn't find anyone with finished product, including me, and sends me a tell asking for a schematic? Point is, there are many dynamics that apply when the question of market share removal is brought up.
I have mixed feelings about schematics. I don't devalue them and I don't give them away. I don't see their inherent value as the price of a full run either. The schematic is a component of my profit margin realized from the full run. This is where my price stems from.
Can you tell I'm an economist?
Spazzers wrote:Can you tell I'm an economist?
You could just be the guy who fixes the coffee machine in a bank who occasionaly listens to the brokers talk...
Spazzers wrote:If a chef can't find a BE to supply them with finished product how am I removing market share by selling a schematic?
You touched on this a bit but didn't really hit it. It comes down to two questions, Did the chef not find tissues anywhere? Or did the chef find tissues at a price he wasn't willing to pay? Then, are you charging less than the inherent value of the schematic in the full run of tissue? That's why I've charged 500k for making one, that's the value I placed on the schematic itself. Add the components, energy, maint and time and you'd get my price for tissues on my vendor.
The problem isn't the chef that wants to get a schematic because there aren't tissues to be had. The problem is the chef that wants to "cut a deal" and give someone "a quick 700k, just make 70 schematics for me and you'll have more than you've had so far!" and the new BEs that fall for it.
Halthron wrote:
You touched on this a bit but didn't really hit it. It comes down to two questions, Did the chef not find tissues anywhere? Or did the chef find tissues at a price he wasn't willing to pay? Then, are you charging less than the inherent value of the schematic in the full run of tissue? That's why I've charged 500k for making one, that's the value I placed on the schematic itself. Add the components, energy, maint and time and you'd get my price for tissues on my vendor.
The problem isn't the chef that wants to get a schematic because there aren't tissues to be had. The problem is the chef that wants to "cut a deal" and give someone "a quick 700k, just make 70 schematics for me and you'll have more than you've had so far!" and the new BEs that fall for it.
That green area is exactly my point. A schematic at 500K plus the 20K meat, all the flora and factory time, should equal your retail sell price. You can sell any component of the entire build seperately. The meat has a value. The flora has a value. Each component has a value, including the schematic. Add all those components together and you come up with your retail price. The schematic is equal to, or a component of, your profit margin which is the 500K you mentioned.
I would much rather sell a schematic for 500K and save myself the hassle of collecting the resources and the 3.5 days of factory time. Either way, had I made the product myself or the chef makes it,in the end my profit is still 500K.
There is a philosophy that schematic makers remove business from other BE's. This isn't exactly true as simply stated. It could be well argued that a BE sitting outside a starport selling schematics for 5K each is destroying the BE/Chef tissue market. On the other hand,if I sell a schematic for 500K to a chef who owns their own resources I come away with the profitI would have realized had I actually crafted the product myself. In this situation I haven't removed business from anyone, no more than I would have had I crafted the product myself and sold it.
The caveat to this is, if I sold 70 schematics for 5K each I've absolutely taken business away from other BE's. There is no way I could craft 70 full runs on my own. And, if I did craft 70 runs, you can bet real money my profit wouldn't only be 5K for each run.
Really I see selling schematics for "expected profit margin price" as a win/win deal. You just have to think of it as selling your knowledge, like a consultant. Of course more chefs ranted and raved at me when I told them my terms than accepted. I don't want to deal with them anyway. I'm selling you the luxury of not spending the rest of your points on BE or paying real money for an alt. and if you value that at 5k then you can take a hike.
Just a little while before I retired from making tissues I ran out of meat, and still had customers asking me for runs, so I offered them to supply the meat, and I'd make the run for the cost of the run minus the meat. This was brilliant for me as I received the same profit as if I had the meat, but then didn't have to worry about finding the meat.
The ironic thing is that the Chefs had teh money to buy much more meat than me, and were happy to provide me with the meat. If they didn't have such a huge stockpile, then perhaps my stockpile would have been bigger, and the prices cheaper for them int eh first place as there would likely be less meat demand. They are driving up the cost of the subcomponents, then complaining if they are priced too high.
One solution, as I see it, is to increase the chance for HQ spawns on things such as creature organics, so there is almost always a good enough spawn to use in HQ goods. This would negate the need for stockpiling, and therefore remove the bidding war that occurs every time a HQ spawn occurs as people fight to get enough to last them till the next spawn.
This wouldn't need to be applied to other forms of resources, as in general the prices for harvesting is fairly reasonable.
Another solution, but one which seems like a bad idea to me, is to allow harvestors for creature organics such as a 'Creature Farm'. This however has a negative effect on Rangers and Scouts unless they are involved in the process.