Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: Please put some experimental points at MBE level
If I may, is this statement that its only good for doctors and CM because of the fact that we can craft a full 12 points at 0004?
Even if you took the SEA's away, a 0004 doctor dabbler will still be able to craft the medical supplies with the same quality a master BE can. This is not a winning situation for a master BE. There is simply no point in mastering the profession. This is why I say it's good for doctors and CM's. It's not a benefit to a BE at all. If you throw the SEA's in the mix things quickly turn ugly.
Which is why I think exp points will move to MBE soon, but only after the CU and when they can dedicate the time to fix the profession properly. BE needs an overhaul, not a band-aid.
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IMHO they won't differentiate because they're working to blend all into one profession, BE. Thus Med Exp and BE Exp will be identical and our SEAs will work with tissues.
I agree with this. I wish it wasn't so. I would be willing to accept this scenario if the SEA's went away.
I have no issue with the rest of your comments as well. The only thing I would add is that the only reason to master BE is to craft INN's. Pet stim B's sell well and collecting fish for the C's is a nightmare. A 0404 BE with an SEA will be the most common BE template. The only "turf" a master BE has is pet crafting. An SEA will make no difference here but I doubt the dabbling doctors care much about pets.
What's an INN?
I would also put forth the fact that BE's don't typically have a ton of money. BE alts, that craft for chef mains, may have more funds available to them and will seek out SEA's. The professional BE, however, won't be able to compete. So again, no point in mastering the profession except to craft animals.
I suspect that SEA's will become a bit more common in loot drops and the like.
There isn't anything I can do about the new changes. I either have to accept the situation or spend my $15 a month on a different game. SWG is simply a game. It isn't worth getting upset over. The BS comment comes from a card game by the way.
The 0004 12 point crafter will outcraft the MBE crafter w/o 12 points in the beginning, I suspect this is intentional. However you're point is valid so don't be a bit surprised if, within say a year, (whenver the devs decide to "fix" BE, (which may be more of a priority with med crafting within BE), your wish is granted and MBE gets those 1 or 2 points. This will give the value to the Master rank as you say, however the cost will be that the converted docs who run med empires will go MBE as well. Combine that with their SEA's and vast resources, and they will soon out produce the current and long term MBE's. They will most likely combine this with a disregard for the pricing because, (it's been said before), they will see the BE craftables as a secondary commodity.
I'd be less surprised to find, within a year or so, all the master BE's are alts for doctors and chefs. By then all the masters will have SEA's so there won't be a need for the developers to change anything.
The thing about SEA's, vast amounts of money, and large amounts of resources is that a doctor will outcraft a master BE on the very first day the curb goes live. Doctors will respec their skill points and immediately pick up 0004 BE. Because the doctors won't need master medic anymore it would not surprise me to see many of those doctors take 0404 BE. You have the skill points available to do this. Anything a master BE would hope to make money on, with the exception for animals, will be craftable by a dabbling doctor better than the master from the very first day the curb goes live. We all know how well animals sell. 
What seems to be missing in this entire discussion is the customers. Who are a BE's customers? Chefs, tailors, creature handlers, and soon doctors/CM. Well the doctors and CM's get removedon the very first day no point even worrying about them. The chefs will find it easier to dabble in BE because they won't need scout and they don't have to master the BEprofession to get the full points. That removes many of them. This leaves us with tailors and creature handlers. Not exactly a large revenue stream there.
Putting 2 points in the master BE box a year or so from now will be too little too late. The damage will be done on the very first day this thing goes live.
Don't read into my comments. They are made to be taken at face value. I'm neither bitter nor angry. SWG belongs to SOE. It is their game to change, not mine. My choice is whether to play their game or play some other game instead. Nothing more, nothing less.
Eskie wrote:
Spazzers wrote:
(...) a lot (...) LOL yeah well I have a lot to say sometimes.
I would be happy with crafting staying in doc, also, but I dont see that happening because crafting boxes dont belong into a combat profession.
See this cracks me up. Doctor is not a combat profession. Cleric may be, but a doctor is a healer. Welcome to EQ2.
Tell me whats more valueable? An MBE with no experimentation skill at all or an MBE with experimentation skills at least for the current BE products?
I agree that the MBE with experimentation points for tissue products is valuable. I don't see this happening though for these reasons; a chef that hopes to craft tissues would need to master the BE profession. Is that fair to them? A tailor that hopes to craft tissues would need to master the BE profession. Is that fair?
But you seem to think making me pay 43 skill points more or see you taking over my doc business is a good way to go, so I guess that is what you are out for.
LOL! I'm not making you do anything. I'm simply asking why a dabbling doctor should be held to a different standard than any other profession that needs BE products? Your sole interest is protecting your medical crafting business. I don't hold this against you. I completely understand it. Protecting your business at my expense doesn't sit with me very well. I think you can understand that as well, especially since you'll be bringing your 12 points with you on the first day this goes live.
I tried to change the nerf to your profession without having to nerf myself and showed a way to do it, seeing we will have to get along on these boards in the future, but you dont seem to be interested in taking that route. I support the current implementation on TC5 I guess since its better for me.
I don't support any of the crafting changes to either profession. Respec the skill point for doctor and leave BE alone. That's the way to make everyone happy. Unfortunately SOE gets to decide this, not us.
Spazzers wrote:
Eskie wrote:
Spazzers wrote:
(...) a lot (...) LOL yeah well I have a lot to say sometimes.
I would be happy with crafting staying in doc, also, but I dont see that happening because crafting boxes dont belong into a combat profession.
See this cracks me up. Doctor is not a combat profession. Cleric may be, but a doctor is a healer. Welcome to EQ2.
This is not my design, I dont like it either. But I doubt anybody will be able to convice the devs to change it back.
Tell me whats more valueable? An MBE with no experimentation skill at all or an MBE with experimentation skills at least for the current BE products?
I agree that the MBE with experimentation points for tissue products is valuable. I don't see this happening though for these reasons; a chef that hopes to craft tissues would need to master the BE profession. Is that fair to them? A tailor that hopes to craft tissues would need to master the BE profession. Is that fair?
Seeing that I invested a lot of time and money in experimentation suits and resources for medical crafting, which a chef or tailor never did (for tissue resources, that is), this is fair. A tailor or chef never was ableto make the things you are talking about.You dont seem to want former docs crafting better medical items than you do, but that is their rightful claim, since they are told to move their business to BE. In no way you should expectmedical craftingto belong moreto a current MBE than toa current MD. Docs are not happy with crafting being moved to BE, and you have no right to claim their business. As it is now, we will be able to claim a large part of your business by just taking 2 lines of BE, which also is not right, hence my proposal to re-introduce BE experimentation.
But you seem to think making me pay 43 skill points more or see you taking over my doc business is a good way to go, so I guess that is what you are out for.
LOL! I'm not making you do anything. I'm simply asking why a dabbling doctor should be held to a different standard than any other profession that needs BE products? Your sole interest is protecting your medical crafting business. I don't hold this against you. I completely understand it. Protecting your business at my expense doesn't sit with me very well. I think you can understand that as well, especially since you'll be bringing your 12 points with you on the first day this goes live.
I am not trying to protect my business at your expense. I am trying to protect my business while making it harder for me to invade your space. That iswhy I ask for the current BE experimentation being put back in place alongside medical experimentation, so current BEs dont have to fear me invading their business. So where in this proposal is something done on your expense, other than keeping a small advantage in former doc crafting to former docs, which is nothing but fair? I dont want to be a better tissue crafter than you are, but I want to be a better medical crafter since I spent around 30 million on an experimentation suit and you didnt.
I tried to change the nerf to your profession without having to nerf myself and showed a way to do it, seeing we will have to get along on these boards in the future, but you dont seem to be interested in taking that route. I support the current implementation on TC5 I guess since its better for me.
I don't support any of the crafting changes to either profession. Respec the skill point for doctor and leave BE alone. That's the way to make everyone happy. Unfortunately SOE gets to decide this, not us.
I would love to leave BE alone, but I have a doc crafting business with resources and experimentation suits. I havea fewoptions:
- Sell my business to an MBE. Not very likely, I doubt there will be a BE having the financial power to buy me out, furthermore I enjoy the crafting game.
- Dont go BE, buthave a BE make me schems to run through my factories. Again, I like the crafting side and BEs dont want to be schematic monkeys. Also, I have the 12pt suit.
- Go BE to be able to continue to use the resources and crafting suits I spend a lot of my earnings in this game on. This is the most viable option in my opinion. I dont want to invade your space, but I am forced to.
SOE decides in the end, yes, but you can alwaysvoice your opinion. And the more people have an opinion, the more likely they will be heard.
As it is implemented right now, BEs get nerfed while I am fine, and I offer my support to keep this nerf as little as possible by preventing myself from entering your business, but expecting some protection for my business in return. Sounds like a fair deal to me. If you try to keep yourself from being nerfed by nerfing me even more than I will be nerfed by having crafting pulled out of my doc template and moved to BE, therefore losing some mods from Master Medic if I want to keep the same skill point cost, I will support the current view of the devs on the opinion, as I already said. So the question is do you want to team up with a Doc soon-to-be 0004 BE and keep him from being able to enter most of yourmarket by spending 14 additionalskill points, or do you want to fight against that docfor medical exp in MBE and12pt suitsworking for all BE products, effectively having pure doc crafters taking on MBE and taking all your business pretty fast unless you are able to spend 30 million?
Eskie wrote:
Seeing that I invested a lot of time and money in experimentation suits and resources for medical crafting, which a chef or tailor never did (for tissue resources, that is), this is fair. A tailor or chef never was ableto make the things you are talking about.You dont seem to want former docs crafting better medical items than you do, but that is their rightful claim, since they are told to move their business to BE. In no way you should expectmedical craftingto belong moreto a current MBE than toa current MD. Docs are not happy with crafting being moved to BE, and you have no right to claim their business. As it is now, we will be able to claim a large part of your business by just taking 2 lines of BE, which also is not right, hence my proposal to re-introduce BE experimentation
Chefs never asked to have their foods enhanced which, in so doing, irrevokably tied them to BE's. Chefs actually do invest a large amount of time and money in BE tissue resources. They bring a sample of these resource to a MBE a pay for a schematic. That's fair. You would completely discount this because its about your time and your investment. You're absolutely right. I don't want a doctor, that dabbles in my profession, crafting any product I make better than I do at the master level. I could care less how much time and money you've invested to be completely honest. In all reality those medical products are BE products. They are crafted by BE's. They are in the BE profession. A master BE should make them better than any novice BE. Period.
Like I said at the beginning, this is an interesting discussion. I appreciate the differing views. But, to be completely honest we might as well pee in the wind. Nothing we do here will change what goes to live. I wish I were wrong but I'll bet real money what we see on test is what will go to live.
I am not trying to protect my business at your expense. I am trying to protect my business while making it harder for me to invade your space.
Again, those medical supplies are BE products. You are stuck on them being doctor products. You aren't invading my space. You're becoming a novice BE. A novice should never outcraft a master.
That iswhy I ask for the current BE experimentation being put back in place alongside medical experimentation, so current BEs dont have to fear me invading their business. So where in this proposal is something done on your expense, other than keeping a small advantage in former doc crafting to former docs, which is nothing but fair? I dont want to be a better tissue crafter than you are, but I want to be a better medical crafter since I spent around 30 million on an experimentation suit and you didnt.
We all know they aren't going to have two seperate xp within one profession. It's just not going to happen. No novice should have an advantage over a master. Period.
I would love to leave BE alone, but I have a doc crafting business with resources and experimentation suits. I havea fewoptions:
- Sell my business to an MBE. Not very likely, I doubt there will be a BE having the financial power to buy me out, furthermore I enjoy the crafting game.
- Dont go BE, buthave a BE make me schems to run through my factories. Again, I like the crafting side and BEs dont want to be schematic monkeys. Also, I have the 12pt suit.
- Go BE to be able to continue to use the resources and crafting suits I spend a lot of my earnings in this game on. This is the most viable option in my opinion. I dont want to invade your space, but I am forced to.
SOE decides in the end, yes, but you can alwaysvoice your opinion.
I can also pee in the wind. I already know which is more productive.
And the more people have an opinion, the more likely they will be heard.
I'll tell this to the smugglers. hehe
As it is implemented right now, BEs get nerfed while I am fine, and I offer my support to keep this nerf as little as possible by preventing myself from entering your business, but expecting some protection for my business in return. Sounds like a fair deal to me. If you try to keep yourself from being nerfed by nerfing me even more than I will be nerfed by having crafting pulled out of my doc template and moved to BE, therefore losing some mods from Master Medic if I want to keep the same skill point cost, I will support the current view of the devs on the opinion, as I already said. So the question is do you want to team up with a Doc soon-to-be 0004 BE and keep him from being able to enter most of yourmarket by spending 14 additionalskill points, or do you want to fight against that docfor medical exp in MBE and12pt suitsworking for all BE products, effectively having pure doc crafters taking on MBE and taking all your business pretty fast unless you are able to spend 30 million?
It makes no difference. You already win, and not because of any discussion that will occur in this forum. I've come to terms with it. Do I like it? No. Does that matter? Not in the slightest. You win. YAY for you.
My point is that by putting some experimentation into the master box, a current master doc will not be able to do the same things he does now - heal and craft. It will cost 43 skill points more than it did before.
So by asking to move some experimentation to the master box, you are nerfing the docs that play the healing and crafting game big time.
Furthermore, by keeping medical experimentation the only experimentation you are forcing BEs to play the 12 point game - pure crafters like Matta will come into BE and chose MBE anyway, having a huge advantage with their experimentation suits and cash balance, forcing you to spend the money on SEAs also.
Seeing all this, I dont see why you are trying to avoid seperating medical and BE experimentation again.
Tell me the reason option b) is better than option c)!
And to the point of flaming: Dont call something BS, I dont call your points BS, either, but try to show you the points I have and try to convince you that c) is better than b) overall. So why is it not?
Spazzers wrote:
Eskie wrote:
- If a current master doc needs BE 0004 to be able to continue to craft medics while retaining all his healing abilities, he can move the CM line of medic plus master medic to the BE skills, effectively netting the skill point cost to keep abilities to 0. This is good.
Good for doctors and combat medics...only. Seems it's all about what is fair for those professionals. Screw everyone else.
If I may, is this statement that its only good for doctors and CM because of the fact that we can craft a full 12 points at 0004?
- If medical experimentation is used for both medical and tissue / additives, current BEs will take a huge hit by the influx of MDs turned BE 0004 - not a great concern, as long as they dont sacrifice a few doc skills for BE x4xx also, invading the market of current BEs. Bad change.
I don't see them differentiating the two. We won't know until we can actually test the profession. Of course I can't even get on the test server because of the population cap. Sure glad I joined the alpha team.
IMHO they won't differentiate because they're working to blend all into one profession, BE. Thus Med Exp and BE Exp will be identical and our SEAs will work with tissues.
- There are two proposed solutions to the bad change:
1) Move some medical experimentation to MBE. This is a bad choice, because it will keep current healing / crafting docs from doing this post-CU. Sure, crafting-only docs will be happy with it, they will probably take MBE anyway, no matter where the experimentation is, but it will hurt the healing / crafting type of doc.
I call BS on this one. The vast majority of current healing / crafting docs have skill mods, which is something you've elected to disregard. Say they move 2 experiment points to the MBE box. A crafting doctor with a skill mod willbe able to craft at the same level a master can with only 0004 BE. This is very fair. If the crafting doctor does not have a skill mod they have a choice, either craft with 8 experiment points or take master BE. This is also very fair.
Unfortunately from what I've seen regarding the devs, fairness doesn't enter into the equation. IMO things will stay as they are now with crafting of meds being a full 10 points at 0004. This is the bone they're throwing to the crafting docs who are about to be excommunicated from the doctor ranks.
The MBE's see this as an insult, and that is logical, however it is the way it will be in the beginning.
From what I can see of the strategy, (a layman's interpretation of course), the devs are allowing the crafting docs to keep their "turf". The MBE's still have their turf regarding tissues, even if they don't see it in the beginning. The current concern amongst MBE is that with the skill mods 12 point docs can craft tissues well. IMO the SEA's won't go away, and the MBEs, much as they don't want it to happen, will be forced to acquire SEAs as well. This will re-balance the two sides and give the MBE BACK their advantage with tissues, plus make them equally competitve with the 12 point crafting medics. In the beginning this keeps the turf separate, however in the long term the 12 point MBE will come out ahead because they will be able to craft the med supplies as well as a 0004 BE, plus out craft the 0404 as they will be 12 point also.
My conclusion: We are going to start seeing 12 point MBEs soon. All other crafting professions have them, BE is being forced into that mix also. Yes it will be a financial challenge for the BE to obtain them, however they will be obtained.
2) Seperate BE exp and medical exp again, giving medical exp in novice medic through medic xxx4 and novice BE through BE xxx4, while distributing BE exp as it is now (some points at master). This will eliminate BE x4x4 dabblers invading the current BE market, while giving BE xxx4 turned docs the advantage they deserve for not being able to craft in the doctor profession anymore.
Deserve? What you've laid out makes the move of medical crafting to BE completely pointless. If doctors are just going to pick up BE anyway, and don't fool yourself, those crafting doctors are going to do exactly that, why even make the change to begin with? Pure healers don't craft on live anyway. Just change the skill point requirement for doctor to two lines of medic and keep the entire medical crafting in the medic/doctor profession where it belongs. Leave the BE profession alone.
I would love it if they left the BE profession alone myself!However that's moot at this point. The majority of us are, post CU, going to be crafting BE's, not crafting docs. I certainly understand how the MBE's see us as intruders, (and we are), however we are nonetheless coming out of necessity.
IMHO they won't separate BE and MED XP because, as of the CU, it'sall BE XP.
I can see docs picking up 0404 BE, however I don't see nearly as many picking up all of BE unless there is a significant advantage to it. Many will, in the beginning anyway, want to keep their Master Doc status, though some may completely abandon doc and pursue MBE. If they go MBE, they inherit the crit failure bug, and knowing most crafting docs, they'll see this as a very great deterrant to picking up MBE and trying to craft pets. Tissues maybe, pets no.
As it is implemented on TC5 right now, it is a loss for BE and a win for docs.
Solution 1 is a win for BE, but a big loss for crafting / healing docs.
Again I call BS that its a big loss for crafting / healing docs. You have skill mods the BE's don't have.
For now...
So dont say I am whining and not giving constructive feedback before you read what I am saying. In fact I want the current TC5 situation changed as much as you do, but I want to make sure it is as close to win / win we can get and not a slap in the face of current healing / crafting docs. If the BE community supports solution 2, I will also support it fully. If current BEs support solution 1, I will rather fight for it to stay as it is currently on TC5.
It isn't a win win. Doctors win. There is no value at all in taking master BE. How is that a win for BE's?
Is there a win for taking MBE for pet crafting/tissue crafting with SEA's? (I don't know the breakdown).
The discussion is interesting albeit completely pointless. The developers have never shown much interest in making changes the player base has asked for. Doctors win. BE's take it up the arse.
Actually I see us both taking it up the arse.
We either learn to accept it or we move on to some other game that suits our entertainment needs. You can bet real money I'm scouting around to see what games are out there.
I see that being the situation for all of us...
It seems rather than discussing things with me you are out to flame me.
As the casual observer, when I first read your post it translated as moderately hostile and arrogant, slanted toward the doctor's advantages. I don't believe this was the intent at all, however it is the impression. Reading the reply, it reads as a rebuttal, not a flame. However again, that is simply my point of view.
I am fine with option a), but I dont like to gain from you being nerfed, so I am offering to support option c), which keeps me out of your market and also protects my market from current BEs. If you instead choose to pursue option b) and try to nerf me to keep from being nerfed yourself, be prepared to meet resistance.
Eskie wrote:
Force me to take MBE to be able to use my experimentation suits and resources the way I can use them now, and I will cater to all the markets I can, because I am not paying 43 skill points more than I do now just to be able to continue my current business. Give me about 30 days to get the resources I need, and I will outcraft every current MBE in the additive and medical markets, unless he spends the money for a 12pt suit also. Doesnt look too good for you, if you ask me. If you really want me to become a full-blown MBE, that is the price you pay.
Eskie wrote:
Force me to take MBE to be able to use my experimentation suits and resources the way I can use them now, and I will cater to all the markets I can, because I am not paying 43 skill points more than I do now just to be able to continue my current business. Give me about 30 days to get the resources I need, and I will outcraft every current MBE in the additive and medical markets, unless he spends the money for a 12pt suit also. Doesnt look too good for you, if you ask me. If you really want me to become a full-blown MBE, that is the price you pay.
Have you been paying attention? I doesn't look good for BE's NOW. Hello??? You don't have to master BE. You can already respec your unused skill points that come from not having to master medic anymore and instantly become 0404 BE. No need to master the profession. You don't have to spend a single skill point you're not already using for medic. Unwad your panties now and take a deep breath. You've already won. I'm not sure why you're all upset. YOU WIN!!!
By the way. You are not the forum moderator. You do not get to tell people when they can post and what they can post. If you don't find the post constructive then move on. These people have been members of this forum far longer than you have.
Aleskander wrote:The point is we don't want anyone to get screwed on the deal. period. Not Docs or BE's. Unfortunatly, we don't have a choich, SOE has decided that medical crafting is now part of the BE profession, not the Doctor profession.I understand the docs being ticked about loosing the crafting tree. Notice, I'm a doc too. I don't do a lot of doc crafting except for pet med items. I don't have a 12 point suit...BE's can't afford stuff like that. And, until now, haven't needed them.BE should be treated the exact same as everyother profession...MASTER MEANS MASTER. I understand you don't like the idea of having to be a MBE to gain the full 12 experimentation points since Doctors have always done it before. BUT why should a MBE be treated as LESS THAN any other master level crafter?I would much prefer to keep medical crafting in the dotor line, not in the BE. But since SOE has decided to move it to us, then make MBE a requirement for the full 10 points granted in the crafting tree. If you were a MAS, would you want a Tailor to be able to take 2 trees and be able to craft all of your best selling armor with the full number of experimentation points you have? I don't think so.Can SOE make it so only BE xp, not medical xp, counts towards the additive line? Yes. Will they? Doubtful. It would be wonderful if they did. That would prevent a "crafting doc" from moving into our profession. But it still wouldn't be BALANCEDfor a BE 0004 to be able to craft as well as a MBE. Remember this is all about balance. You want to be the best crafter, be a Master.
Force me to take MBE to be able to use my experimentation suits and resources the way I can use them now, and I will cater to all the markets I can, because I am not paying 43 skill points more than I do now just to be able to continue my current business. Give me about 30 days to get the resources I need, and I will outcraft every current MBE in the additive and medical markets, unless he spends the money for a 12pt suit also. Doesnt look too good for you, if you ask me. If you really want me to become a full-blown MBE, that is the price you pay.
after that i can see on your sig you are a doc and "riflewoman"
doc getting screwed(in your own point of view) and riflemen(you wont be uber no more) LOL
now back to being upset
Mereset wrote:
Eskie calm down and count to ten.
after that i can see on your sig you are a doc and "riflewoman"
doc getting screwed(in your own point of view) and riflemen(you wont be uber no more) LOL
now back to being upset
Trolling today? Be constructive or silent.
And in my point of view, docs are not screwed currently. I can do the same stuff I did before for the same skill point cost as it is right now on CU test center, but you guys are threatened by BE x4x4 dabblers with experimentation suits outcrafting you. I am just saying that if you force me to take MBE to get rid of that threat, I will not spend the additional skill points without return. But rather than having me invade your market, I showed up another route also keeping that threat from you while not making me spend 43 skill points extra.
Riflemen never were uber - have you ever tried to fight a jedi with a rifle or a CM without having doc skills yourself? The uber people were the FOTM rifles / CM because they took your mind faster than you could say "ouch". I am looking forward to the rifleman changes, it will be fun seeing people try to figure out what hit them. /cover ftw!
That said, my PvP rating is somewhere in the range of 1200 to 1300, I dont really care. PvP currently is broken because of stacking templates, uber buffs and uber armor.
Message Edited by Eskie on 04-09-2005 09:44 AM