Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: Please put some experimental points at MBE level
RancorPoker wrote:
(...) I say they should make doc a combat prof while keeping the crafting portion where it has been. If they don't, and continue to include it in BE, I propose skipping the boxes so the skills don't come on the first four. Rather, place it in Novice, Techniques 2 and 4. Then dump the rest into master.(...)
This is not a good option, because there are docs like me who enjoy the healing side _and_ the crafting side of doc. Forcing them to take on MBE in addition to MD to be able to do what they do now and therefore roughly doubling the skill point cost will wreck their templates and prevent them from getting any notable fighting or vendor skills. For people only having one SWG account, this is not an option and unfair.
Eskie wrote:
RancorPoker wrote:
(...) I say they should make doc a combat prof while keeping the crafting portion where it has been. If they don't, and continue to include it in BE, I propose skipping the boxes so the skills don't come on the first four. Rather, place it in Novice, Techniques 2 and 4. Then dump the rest into master.(...)
This is not a good option, because there are docs like me who enjoy the healing side _and_ the crafting side of doc. Forcing them to take on MBE in addition to MD to be able to do what they do now and therefore roughly doubling the skill point cost will wreck their templates and prevent them from getting any notable fighting or vendor skills. For people only having one SWG account, this is not an option and unfair.
Well, life is unfair. We were not asked if we wanted to craft medical stuff. We were not asked if we wanted our BE xp changed to medical xp.
What we are saying is that if they're going to make us craft medical items, and make it so that you use medical xp insted of BE xp, then make EVERYONE have master BE to get all 10 crafting points.
You want to cry about sp useage? Look at MBE now. We are required to have 1 line in scout, 1 line in medic just to get the BE skill. In order to do DNA sampling, a large part of our profession, we have to take a 2d line of scout to get mask scent. That's 2 novice skills and 3 full trees just to get out novice skill. Then you throw in the BE profession and it now takes MORE sp to master BE than it does Doctor.
Despite knowing how many sp it takes to do BE and to do Doc, I HAVE BOTH. I intend to keep both post-CU. No, I don't have a 12 point medical crafting suit. I DON'T want to see BE additives being crafted by doctors. I didn't really want to see medical stuff in the BE profession.
If you have something constructive to add, please do. But do not come to us whining about sp useage to become a MBE. We've been asking to have just a little releif from the sp costs for a very long time.
- If a current master doc needs BE 0004 to be able to continue to craft medics while retaining all his healing abilities, he can move the CM line of medic plus master medic to the BE skills, effectively netting the skill point cost to keep abilities to 0. This is good.
- If medical experimentation is used for both medical and tissue / additives, current BEs will take a huge hit by the influx of MDs turned BE 0004 - not a great concern, as long as they dont sacrifice a few doc skills for BE x4xx also, invading the market of current BEs. Bad change.
- There are two proposed solutions to the bad change:
1) Move some medical experimentation to MBE. This is a bad choice, because it will keep current healing / crafting docs from doing this post-CU. Sure, crafting-only docs will be happy with it, they will probably take MBE anyway, no matter where the experimentation is, but it will hurt the healing / crafting type of doc.
2) Seperate BE exp and medical exp again, giving medical exp in novice medic through medic xxx4 and novice BE through BE xxx4, while distributing BE exp as it is now (some points at master). This will eliminate BE x4x4 dabblers invading the current BE market, while giving BE xxx4 turned docs the advantage they deserve for not being able to craft in the doctor profession anymore.
As it is implemented on TC5 right now, it is a loss for BE and a win for docs.
Solution 1 is a win for BE, but a big loss for crafting / healing docs.
Solution 2 is a keep-as-is and get some medical crafting for BE and keep-as-is for healing / crafting docs.
So dont say I am whining and not giving constructive feedback before you read what I am saying. In fact I want the current TC5 situation changed as much as you do, but I want to make sure it is as close to win / win we can get and not a slap in the face of current healing / crafting docs. If the BE community supports solution 2, I will also support it fully. If current BEs support solution 1, I will rather fight for it to stay as it is currently on TC5.
*edited for spelling*
Message Edited by Eskie on 04-08-2005 11:16 AM
Aleskander wrote:
(...)
Well, life is unfair.
(...)
You want to cry about sp useage? Look at MBE now. We are required to have 1 line in scout, 1 line in medic just to get the BE skill. In order to do DNA sampling, a large part of our profession, we have to take a 2d line of scout to get mask scent. That's 2 novice skills and 3 full trees just to get out novice skill. Then you throw in the BE profession and it now takes MORE sp to master BE than it does Doctor.
Your first sentence effectively outed you as being pretty selfish only concerned with your own good. You probably wont ever be part in a _constructive_ discussion.
That said, get your facts right!
Prerequisite of Master Doc is Master Medic, which was 77 skill points last time I checked.
Prerequisite for MBE was medic xxx4 and scout xx4x last time I checked, which is 58 skill points. Add your mask scent tree on top of it and you come out at 72 skill points. So dont tell me MBE takes a lot of skill points, because you are required to have 58, but need 72 to be effective, yet master docs need 77 in prereqs.
If you are currently MD / MBE, nothing will change for you apart from having 20 more skill points from the CM line of medic and master medic, anyway. So dont call me a whiner and tell me I should just accept that somebody tries to ruin my template by requiring me to have MBE while I try to support current BEs keeping their business, losing business opportunities for me doing that.
The discussion is interesting albeit completely pointless. The developers have never shown much interest in making changes the player base has asked for. Doctors win. BE's take it up the arse. We either learn to accept it or we move on to some other game that suits our entertainment needs. You can bet real money I'm scouting around to see what games are out there.
Eskie wrote:
Apparently the two posters that replied to my last post did not understand what I was saying, so I will sum it up again:
- If a current master doc needs BE 0004 to be able to continue to craft medics while retaining all his healing abilities, he can move the CM line of medic plus master medic to the BE skills, effectively netting the skill point cost to keep abilities to 0. This is good.
Good for doctors and combat medics...only. Seems it's all about what is fair for those professionals. Screw everyone else.
- If medical experimentation is used for both medical and tissue / additives, current BEs will take a huge hit by the influx of MDs turned BE 0004 - not a great concern, as long as they dont sacrifice a few doc skills for BE x4xx also, invading the market of current BEs. Bad change.
I don't see them differentiating the two. We won't know until we can actually test the profession. Of course I can't even get on the test server because of the population cap. Sure glad I joined the alpha team.
- There are two proposed solutions to the bad change:
1) Move some medical experimentation to MBE. This is a bad choice, because it will keep current healing / crafting docs from doing this post-CU. Sure, crafting-only docs will be happy with it, they will probably take MBE anyway, no matter where the experimentation is, but it will hurt the healing / crafting type of doc.
I call BS on this one. The vast majority of current healing / crafting docs have skill mods, which is something you've elected to disregard. Say they move 2 experiment points to the MBE box. A crafting doctor with a skill mod willbe able to craft at the same level a master can with only 0004 BE. This is very fair. If the crafting doctor does not have a skill mod they have a choice, either craft with 8 experiment points or take master BE. This is also very fair.
2) Seperate BE exp and medical exp again, giving medical exp in novice medic through medic xxx4 and novice BE through BE xxx4, while distributing BE exp as it is now (some points at master). This will eliminate BE x4x4 dabblers invading the current BE market, while giving BE xxx4 turned docs the advantage they deserve for not being able to craft in the doctor profession anymore.
Deserve? What you've laid out makes the move of medical crafting to BE completely pointless. If doctors are just going to pick up BE anyway, and don't fool yourself, those crafting doctors are going to do exactly that, why even make the change to begin with? Pure healers don't craft on live anyway. Just change the skill point requirement for doctor to two lines of medic and keep the entire medical crafting in the medic/doctor profession where it belongs. Leave the BE profession alone.
As it is implemented on TC5 right now, it is a loss for BE and a win for docs.
Solution 1 is a win for BE, but a big loss for crafting / healing docs.
Again I call BS that its a big loss for crafting / healing docs. You have skill mods the BE's don't have.
Solution 2 is a keep-as-is and get some medical crafting for BE and keep-as-is for healing / crafting docs.
Then what exactly is the point of moving the medical crafting to BE if you're solution is to "keep-as-is for the doctors?
So dont say I am whining and not giving constructive feedback before you read what I am saying. In fact I want the current TC5 situation changed as much as you do, but I want to make sure it is as close to win / win we can get and not a slap in the face of current healing / crafting docs. If the BE community supports solution 2, I will also support it fully. If current BEs support solution 1, I will rather fight for it to stay as it is currently on TC5.
It isn't a win win. Doctors win. There is no value at all in taking master BE. How is that a win for BE's?
*edited for spelling*
Message Edited by Eskie on 04-08-2005 11:16 AM
Option a) leave as it is on TC5, current BEs get nerfed and face BE x4x4 dabblers with exp suits outcrafting them on every single product they make.
Option b) keep medical experimentation the only experimentation type in BE, but move some of it to the master box. You are trying to keep from being nerfed by nerfing current docs that enjoy crafting and healing.
Option c) Re-introduce BE experimentation points applied to pets and additives with no SEA support, and apply medical experimentation with SEAs only to the new medical schematics. All BE experimentation need MBE, all medical experimentation only need BE xxx4. Your old market is protected from x4x4 dabblers (the former 12pt docs), while you will need to purchase SEAs to compete with the 12pt docs in the medical business.
I am fine with option a), but I dont like to gain from you being nerfed, so I am offering to support option c), which keeps me out of your market and also protects my market from current BEs. If you instead choose to pursue option b) and try to nerf me to keep from being nerfed yourself, be prepared to meet resistance.
Message Edited by Spazzers on 04-08-2005 11:38 AM
Eskie wrote:
See, I was disregarding SEAs for a purpose. If I come into BE, take 0004 and have as much experimentation as a MBE including my SEAs, what prevents that MBE getting SEAs also to get an advantage over me.
A master should have an advantage over you. That's why they're called a master.
SEAs are of no concern, since they are available to everyone.
A better option, D, would be to just simply eliminate SEA's altogether. If all the points are available at 0004 then so be it. The doctor dabbler gets to craft as well as a master. Oh well. However, there should NEVER be a situation where a novice dabbler with 1/4 of the skills should ever out craft a master. What is the point of taking master? Simple example. I go dabble in chef. I take 0040 and craft the same brandy at the same high quality the master chef makes. I get a nice chef apron and craft even better brandy. Do you think the master chef is going to be jumping for joy at my success?
My point is that by putting some experimentation into the master box, a current master doc will not be able to do the same things he does now - heal and craft. It will cost 43 skill points more than it did before.
So what. Again, I ask why even move the crafting to BE at all if you're simply asking for a "no change" scenerio? The entire concept is mind boggling. It would appear that your real interest here is protecting your medical products at all cost. Completely devalue the master BE just as long as you still get a "no change" situation that you feel you "deserve."
So by asking to move some experimentation to the master box, you are nerfing the docs that play the healing and crafting game big time.
So instead, lets just devalue the master BE that put in the time and effert to master a profession. It's all good as long as the precious doctors don't get nerfed. Moving 2 points into the master BE box makes master BE valuable. A dabbling doctor with an SEA will have 10 points to craft with. Makes a great product. YAY. A dabbling doctor without an SEA will have 8 points. They can either purchase an SEA or master BE....or both. A master BE with an SEA will have 12 points and outcraft everyone. That's how it SHOULD be. They're a MASTER. I'm mean hello!!!
How would you feel if I dabbled in doctor, got 0004 doctor and could buff everyone and myself just as well as you, the master doctor could? I get a skill attachment and suddenly me, the dabbler, can buff everyone better and longer. Are you going to be thrilled for my success?
Furthermore, by keeping medical experimentation the only experimentation you are forcing BEs to play the 12 point game - pure crafters like Matta will come into BE and chose MBE anyway, having a huge advantage with their experimentation suits and cash balance, forcing you to spend the money on SEAs also.
Exactly why I'd love to see SEA's just go away. They are the bane of the game. No one should be able to, or have to, purchase skills.
Seeing all this, I dont see why you are trying to avoid seperating medical and BE experimentation again.
Tell me the reason option b) is better than option c)
All the options you've outlined make master BE completely pointless. The only reason to get master BE would be to make pet stim C, that take fish, INN's that sell to chefs, and some of the monster pets that don't sell well. Of course I completely understand why you would disregard the master BE. It doesn't effect you at all.
And to the point of flaming: Dont call something BS, I dont call your points BS, either, but try to show you the points I have and try to convince you that c) is better than b) overall. So why is it not?
Seems like all you read was the BS.
TarMangani wrote:
(...)
As the casual observer, when I first read your post it translated as moderately hostile and arrogant, slanted toward the doctor's advantages. I don't believe this was the intent at all, however it is the impression. Reading the reply, it reads as a rebuttal, not a flame. However again, that is simply my point of view.
(...)
It wasnt meant as an attack on current Bio Engineers, and yes it was slanted towards crafting / healing docs.
But the main points are to allow a current crafting / healing doc to keep his playstyle while not nerfing BEs.
I am just stating that by requiring MBE for full experimentation on the new pharmaceuticals a current healing / crafting doc will need to spend about 40 more skill points to still be able to do it.
I am also seeing that current Bio Engineers are nerfed by having 12pt docs invading their profession and crafting chef additives better than them by taking just 2 lines of BE.
Seperating the experimentation again in the way I outlined will get rid of the BE nerf while not nerfing crafting / healing docs in return, so both sides could be happy.
I am a little worried currently because people seem to think a nerf to healing / crafting docs to get rid of the BE nerf is better than making both sides happy.
Spazzers wrote:
(...) a lot (...)
I would be happy with crafting staying in doc, also, but I dont see that happening because crafting boxes dont belong into a combat profession.
Tell me whats more valueable? An MBE with no experimentation skill at all or an MBE with experimentation skills at least for the current BE products?
But you seem to think making me pay 43 skill points more or see you taking over my doc business is a good way to go, so I guess that is what you are out for. I tried to change the nerf to your profession without having to nerf myself and showed a way to do it, seeing we will have to get along on these boards in the future, but you dont seem to be interested in taking that route. I support the current implementation on TC5 I guess since its better for me.
See, I was disregarding SEAs for a purpose. If I come into BE, take 0004 and have as much experimentation as a MBE including my SEAs, what prevents that MBE getting SEAs also to get an advantage over me.
A master should have an advantage over you. That's why they're called a master.
The 0004 12 point crafter will outcraft the MBE crafter w/o 12 points in the beginning, I suspect this is intentional. However you're point is valid so don't be a bit surprised if, within say a year, (whenver the devs decide to "fix" BE, (which may be more of a priority with med crafting within BE), your wish is granted and MBE gets those 1 or 2 points. This will give the value to the Master rank as you say, however the cost will be that the converted docs who run med empires will go MBE as well. Combine that with their SEA's and vast resources, and they will soon out produce the current and long term MBE's. They will most likely combine this with a disregard for the pricing because, (it's been said before), they will see the BE craftables as a secondary commodity.
The possible exception to this would be if the doc/MBE, wanting to keep a price high, may honor the current MBE pricing. (Much as an MD would honor the higher buff prices as they would lose money if they fell).
SEAs are of no concern, since they are available to everyone.
A better option, D, would be to just simply eliminate SEA's altogether. If all the points are available at 0004 then so be it.
IMHO SEA's won't go away. MBE will need to pick them up.
My point is that by putting some experimentation into the master box, a current master doc will not be able to do the same things he does now - heal and craft. It will cost 43 skill points more than it did before.
So what. Again, I ask why even move the crafting to BE at all if you're simply asking for a "no change" scenerio? The entire concept is mind boggling. It would appear that your real interest here is protecting your medical products at all cost. Completely devalue the master BE just as long as you still get a "no change" situation that you feel you "deserve."
To me, the primary decision was to get rid of crafting from MD. The focus, I believe, was the frustration the devs had with doctors who didn't go into combat and heal. That's all they cared about. Buff-bots and crafters annoyed them, so they're separating the two.
Secondary decsion was where to put them. I suspect they moved them to BE as that is the closest "pharmacist" class they have, (plus the similar medic prerequisites), but are turning a deaf ear to the protests from the MBE's because, with the crit failure, the profession is hosed anyway. However I do believe they will address the entire profession in the near future, and the MBE will get his due...
So by asking to move some experimentation to the master box, you are nerfing the docs that play the healing and crafting game big time.
The point here is that we are being forced to leave the doctor ranks. Currently we'll craft and keep MD, but we won't keep crafting at the same level for long. Soon we'll be forced to completely choose, crafting by taking MBE, or healing by keeping MD. We won't have the best of both worlds they way some of us will at the beginning of the CU by being able to keep MD/M combat prof and 0004 BE due to the elimination of the scout pre-req.
If I may, is this statement that its only good for doctors and CM because of the fact that we can craft a full 12 points at 0004?
Even if you took the SEA's away, a 0004 doctor dabbler will still be able to craft the medical supplies with the same quality a master BE can. This is not a winning situation for a master BE. There is simply no point in mastering the profession. This is why I say it's good for doctors and CM's. It's not a benefit to a BE at all. If you throw the SEA's in the mix things quickly turn ugly.
IMHO they won't differentiate because they're working to blend all into one profession, BE. Thus Med Exp and BE Exp will be identical and our SEAs will work with tissues.
I agree with this. I wish it wasn't so. I would be willing to accept this scenario if the SEA's went away.
I have no issue with the rest of your comments as well. The only thing I would add is that the only reason to master BE is to craft INN's. Pet stim B's sell well and collecting fish for the C's is a nightmare. A 0404 BE with an SEA will be the most common BE template. The only "turf" a master BE has is pet crafting. An SEA will make no difference here but I doubt the dabbling doctors care much about pets.
I would also put forth the fact that BE's don't typically have a ton of money. BE alts, that craft for chef mains, may have more funds available to them and will seek out SEA's. The professional BE, however, won't be able to compete. So again, no point in mastering the profession except to craft animals.
There isn't anything I can do about the new changes. I either have to accept the situation or spend my $15 a month on a different game. SWG is simply a game. It isn't worth getting upset over. The BS comment comes from a card game by the way.
Eskie wrote:
TarMangani wrote:
(...)
As the casual observer, when I first read your post it translated as moderately hostile and arrogant, slanted toward the doctor's advantages. I don't believe this was the intent at all, however it is the impression. Reading the reply, it reads as a rebuttal, not a flame. However again, that is simply my point of view.
(...)
It wasnt meant as an attack on current Bio Engineers, and yes it was slanted towards crafting / healing docs.
But the main points are to allow a current crafting / healing doc to keep his playstyle while not nerfing BEs.
I am just stating that by requiring MBE for full experimentation on the new pharmaceuticals a current healing / crafting doc will need to spend about 40 more skill points to still be able to do it.
I am also seeing that current Bio Engineers are nerfed by having 12pt docs invading their profession and crafting chef additives better than them by taking just 2 lines of BE.
Seperating the experimentation again in the way I outlined will get rid of the BE nerf while not nerfing crafting / healing docs in return, so both sides could be happy.
I am a little worried currently because people seem to think a nerf to healing / crafting docs to get rid of the BE nerf is better than making both sides happy.
Trust me buddy, I TOTALLY feel your pain! I'm a med crafter first, doctor second. The CU is already making me feel like Ned Beatty in Deliverance, so I know where you're coming from...
However we crafting docs have to givethe man his due because he's right. A master should be able to outcraft a non master.
The separation of med exp and BE exp won'tbe acceptable to the devs, (and some players), because, IMHO,it separates the BE line long term. It's like making the 0004 line of BE a separate entity simply for the happiness of the current crafting docs. Fine for the short term, won't work 1-2 years down the road because it was motivated based on a legacy decision, not a realistic decision.That's why we crafting docs are going to take it up the arse twice with the CU eventually. We're being excommunication from the doctor profession, andwithin a year or two, we'll be forced to choose again between our healing at MD or crafting at full 12 point strength with MBE. We won't be able to have our cake and eat it too. It TOTALLY sucks, but it's the way it is.
As for me I've been doing a lot of thinking lately, trying to determine my toon's role in the game. To me I lovecrafting first, and healing second. When I see what the doctor role is becoming, (travelling ambulances), I'm trying to decide if I really want to do that. The more I think about it the more I realize I really don't. Yes the poison/disease cure I have now is great, but if that's the only advantage I get for keeping MD, (which is all I can really see that separates me from being alesser strength doctor or simply Master Medic), I'm seriously considering the option of delving intotheBE profession more. I probably won't go master until they fix the crit error aspets don't really interest me, (and I loathe CH), but the tissues side, combined with the SP I'm going to have to spend to attain vendor capabilities, does sound interesting. With my bad a$$ 12 point suit, combined with my warehouse of resources, (and oh my is there a lot), I could do very well with both professions. I will,out of respect for the current BE's, (and my own level of greed
Just my twocents worth obviously...