Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: Discussion Thread: Dna storage
Kivrin
Wed Jan 19, 2005 8:05 am
#27
Hylidex wrote:Also, I'd love for the issue to read: "DNA Storage and Visibility", since the two issues are essentially part of the same problem.
The more I think about it the more I agree with this. They're separate in function but not really in purpose. Any container we get, especially one that can't load samples into the crafting station (like a droid), is just going to become yet another DNA storage area to pick through. Granted it will lessen the housing crunch, but won't change our routine of clicking, dragging, and searching for samples. And once that container is full we're back where we started.
That last line isn't meant as a strong concession, but taken in context with what Hylidex said makes sense to me. The idea is dealing with DNA ia a pain and addressing this as, "DNA Storage and Visibility" is in purpose closer to the goal of making us more productive.
Kivrin
Wed Jan 19, 2005 8:07 am
#28
R-ade wrote:I doubt that they want us to have that much storage.
Exactly. So if we only have something capable of holding a reasonable amount of DNA, I personally would prefer it in something more easily accessible.
PlainWhiteSocks
Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:15 am
#29
Inkanissen wrote:
The blood idea may save database space, but for me the idea would degrade pet making to the level of smugglers making spice where quality of ingredients does not matter because they would all have the same stats for given classes of creatures - effectively killing my fun factor and that would make me drop BE in a split second. Making pets with the complex system is my kind of fun, that is why I took BE in the first place. Looking for high HAM donors and getting the DNA is great fun, if that goes I will go also. I could not care less for making tissues, that part is just like any other crafting profession. The pet system is unique and exciting. I really think that my idea with a special storange building is a better solution, it gives storage for DNA only and it gives Arch a little to do again crafting those buildings.
I think in the blood solution the blood would produce the good ol' unique samples that we're used to getting, maybe with a little more variance from sample to sample.
The problem of handing it over to rangers and scouts. Well, this doesn't look like a problem to me. We wouldn't be handing it over completely to them. We'd still be abel to get blood ourselves and not have to pay their price.
In addition I think the blood gathering should work like sampling currently. I think someone else said this too. I'd like to see it go one step farther than I've seen mentioned here. I want it to kill the creature just like sampling does without the chance of getting resources. It's just a balance thing.
Someone here remarked on the size of DNA. Have you ever dropped one of these samples in your house? They're huge. I'm suprised that we can get so many out of a gnort or nightspider. Let alone fit 50 of them in a backpack.
Oh yeah, I'm voting for the blood thingy, mostly cause the database storage issues. I also don't want them to fix the problem by making dna samples stack thus making them generic. In this I agree completely with Inkanissen. The blood idea seems to solve both.
Message Edited by PlainWhiteSocks on 01-19-2005 09:19 AM
Meplorium
Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:39 am
#30
If I remember correctly they already shot down the 'storage houses' type solution due to database restraints. The DNA samples are the most data intensive object in the game. So I think we need to take the approach of what they can do that won't increase the db size of the object yet allow us to have a usuable sized DNA library. My only idea that would statisify both sides is to have DNA come out in stacks. So you DNA sample a nerf and get one DNA sample with 1-7 charges on it, depending on skill level. Similar to crates or stims or food. This does reduce the time needed to collect DNA in the field of course, but a back pack full of DNA would go much further. The failure rates could be adjusted so it would be harder to get a sample, but you get around 5 samples per success, to balance it out.
This should be fairly doable on their end and give use more DNA per item space, which is what we need. At the same time they are picking at the code they can do something about the naming too.
tacwraith
Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:13 am
#31
hey arthurdent, how about a solution from a different approach instead?
Yes, storage is a problem, but really, WHY do we need to store SO much dna? I think thats the issue.
DNA is used only to make pets. So we have us using 5 dna pieces per template to make a clone. That clone will either be sold or used as DNA donor.
If sold then the loss of those 5 dna was 'worth' it.
However, the clones kept as DNA donors we routinely lose to DNA sampling.
The way I see it, a DNA donor clone= dna storage.
So why not have SOE remove the chance to lose a clone in inventory/deed form to dna sampling?
That way each BE can tinker with gathered DNA, make clones that have a strong trait in a certain area, and store that pet as a DNA donor instead of having to store the 50+ dna samples it took the BE to make that clone in the first place.
For example, if I wanted to make a super aggressive strain of DNA, instead of having to around harvesting DNA from the most aggressive and hard-hitting creatures in the game and storing the dozens+ DNA samples of it that would take me to make the one clone with those stats EVERY single time I get an order for a high damage pet.... I can just do the harvesting of that DNA once, make the clone that has those traits and keep that clone stored in the house for future use... so that one clone = dozens and dozens of storage space.
This would also open the way for a lot more creature dna combinations, for im sure many BE's just go around harvesting specific creatures because its easier to get the desired traits from one wild animal than create an even better strain of that trait by mixing dozens of different animal's dna and experimenting...because it takes too much storage space and time and effort to do that every single time. But if we could make one clone that had those traits and KEEP it as a DNA donor not only does it save a buttload of storage space but it can also introduce BE's sharing or selling donor clones to each other and be able to make pets done to specifications instead of hoping the results best match what the client wants.
Yes, storage is a problem, but really, WHY do we need to store SO much dna? I think thats the issue.
DNA is used only to make pets. So we have us using 5 dna pieces per template to make a clone. That clone will either be sold or used as DNA donor.
If sold then the loss of those 5 dna was 'worth' it.
However, the clones kept as DNA donors we routinely lose to DNA sampling.
The way I see it, a DNA donor clone= dna storage.
So why not have SOE remove the chance to lose a clone in inventory/deed form to dna sampling?
That way each BE can tinker with gathered DNA, make clones that have a strong trait in a certain area, and store that pet as a DNA donor instead of having to store the 50+ dna samples it took the BE to make that clone in the first place.
For example, if I wanted to make a super aggressive strain of DNA, instead of having to around harvesting DNA from the most aggressive and hard-hitting creatures in the game and storing the dozens+ DNA samples of it that would take me to make the one clone with those stats EVERY single time I get an order for a high damage pet.... I can just do the harvesting of that DNA once, make the clone that has those traits and keep that clone stored in the house for future use... so that one clone = dozens and dozens of storage space.
This would also open the way for a lot more creature dna combinations, for im sure many BE's just go around harvesting specific creatures because its easier to get the desired traits from one wild animal than create an even better strain of that trait by mixing dozens of different animal's dna and experimenting...because it takes too much storage space and time and effort to do that every single time. But if we could make one clone that had those traits and KEEP it as a DNA donor not only does it save a buttload of storage space but it can also introduce BE's sharing or selling donor clones to each other and be able to make pets done to specifications instead of hoping the results best match what the client wants.
ArthurDentOnBria
Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:40 am
#32
tacwraith,
It's an interesting idea. I use that idea now, storing almost as many "dna donor pets" in storage as I do actual samples because of the obvious storage savings that you get. But unlimited? That won't fly. You'd never ever have to go dna sampling again if that were the case. Throw 5 MR samples into a template, make a creature from it, and you'd have unlimited MR samples for the rest of your BE career.
One thing that seems to be a big concern is over "monopolies", so I think that the need to store more dna has to be balance against the ability to create a much higher volume of creatures. If the proposed storage solution enables a BE to triple or quadruple (or more) his output of pets, I don't think the solution is going to fly.
tacwraith wrote:
hey arthurdent, how about a solution from a different approach instead?
Yes, storage is a problem, but really, WHY do we need to store SO much dna? I think thats the issue.
DNA is used only to make pets. So we have us using 5 dna pieces per template to make a clone. That clone will either be sold or used as DNA donor.
If sold then the loss of those 5 dna was 'worth' it.
However, the clones kept as DNA donors we routinely lose to DNA sampling.
The way I see it, a DNA donor clone= dna storage.
So why not have SOE remove the chance to lose a clone in inventory/deed form to dna sampling?
That way each BE can tinker with gathered DNA, make clones that have a strong trait in a certain area, and store that pet as a DNA donor instead of having to store the 50+ dna samples it took the BE to make that clone in the first place.
For example, if I wanted to make a super aggressive strain of DNA, instead of having to around harvesting DNA from the most aggressive and hard-hitting creatures in the game and storing the dozens+ DNA samples of it that would take me to make the one clone with those stats EVERY single time I get an order for a high damage pet.... I can just do the harvesting of that DNA once, make the clone that has those traits and keep that clone stored in the house for future use... so that one clone = dozens and dozens of storage space.
This would also open the way for a lot more creature dna combinations, for im sure many BE's just go around harvesting specific creatures because its easier to get the desired traits from one wild animal than create an even better strain of that trait by mixing dozens of different animal's dna and experimenting...because it takes too much storage space and time and effort to do that every single time. But if we could make one clone that had those traits and KEEP it as a DNA donor not only does it save a buttload of storage space but it can also introduce BE's sharing or selling donor clones to each other and be able to make pets done to specifications instead of hoping the results best match what the client wants.
pepelepew50
Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:39 pm
#33
In response to your combat issue, yes it takes up skill points, but to deal with this issue, I supplemented my bio-engineer profession with creature handler 0 0 0 4. This allows me to have 2 pets at 24 level which in themselves are good weapons. Also, I have a total of 5 stored pets, which if the 2 get knocked out i can change the out with a fresh pair. The 5th slot i use to tranfer pets to people after their trained and mounted.
Plus i have a Probot Droid which is 19 level. when i solo i just group in a 3 to 4 person group. Which consist of1 Bio-Engineer, 2 Dewbacks, and 1 droid.
I also went out and got rifleman ability which is 0 0 1 0. Since being a wookie gives me 2 bowcasters and 1 T21, it makes for a good hunting battery. Should i aggrevate a creature trying to sample: (1) if its just one creature i just run back to where i camped my mounts to a spot about 100m from lair, and just keep the mob at a range of 20 to 30 m, i wear it down with normal attack. (2) If its a fast mob, i use my pets to cut of the creature at 100m from the lair. This acts as an anvil and holds the mob and then i use my T21 as a hammer and crush it. (3) If the whole lair comes after me, than i just run back 100m and let the mobs just knock me out. They usually just go back to there lair. I then wait 20 minutes. ( mainly to heal and so the 3 knockouts in 20 minute rule has expired). This usually is enough time for them to calm down. Then i go back and resume DNA sampling.
Using this technique i went out and killed 43 bull sharnaffs and 9 grondas on my own without any buffs. More than this, I was only knocked out once do to an accidental discharge of my T21. I accidently hit attack instead of DNA sample and the whole lair came after me.Combine that with my merchant 0 4 0 1, i than store them in my vendor warehouse that I only know about.
For me, these are strategies and tactics thatI have developed for me and i don't have a problemwith solo combat andstoring DNA samples or other resources.
Thank You
Cyrakazzalova - Bria - Corellia
Hylidex
Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:56 pm
#34
Meplorium wrote:
If I remember correctly they already shot down the 'storage houses' type solution due to database restraints. The DNA samples are the most data intensive object in the game. So I think we need to take the approach of what they can do that won't increase the db size of the object yet allow us to have a usuable sized DNA library. My only idea that would statisify both sides is to have DNA come out in stacks. So you DNA sample a nerf and get one DNA sample with 1-7 charges on it, depending on skill level. Similar to crates or stims or food. This does reduce the time needed to collect DNA in the field of course, but a back pack full of DNA would go much further. The failure rates could be adjusted so it would be harder to get a sample, but you get around 5 samples per success, to balance it out.
This should be fairly doable on their end and give use more DNA per item space, which is what we need. At the same time they are picking at the code they can do something about the naming too.
Actually, the proposal I wrote for this suggested it in order to CONSERVE on disk space. By using a DNA-specific data set, one would not need to store a large number of specific objects, but merely an array with the stats of the DNA in purely numeric form. The objects would be recreated on removal of the DNA from the lab. This is the reason the lab is limited to DNA. As it currently stands, the DNA hasa combination of data types, including text,and must be a terrible disk hog, especially if the text is in fixed-length strings.
PlainWhiteSocks
Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:05 pm
#35
lammergeier wrote:
storage is an issue for some, and there are ways around it...
a line of ten factories gives you 1000 storage OR a line of ten/five small houses (naboo small round/any other) or vendor tents gives you 750 storage.
personal inventory? 60. backpack/etc? 50. bank? 100.
add vendors? more items. LOTS more items (up to 4000 at master merchant). (worried about players buying them? set an exorbitant access fee on the building, and price single DNA samples at 1-10 mil. if anyone DOES 'break in and steal' a sample, they'll be walking out poor.)
add storage droids? 10 per.
I'd love a more elegant solution to storage of DNA, but if we already have the ability to store more than 5k samples of DNA on a single toon, then the problem I see is with DNA MANAGEMENT, not STORAGE. as it is, I have ONLY a few hundred samples to manage, and the problem I have is finding the DNA I have. generally, it's easier to empty my inventory, head to the starport, and collect what I need for each batch of clones I'm running.
I really don't care what the QUALITY of my DNA is: the stats are there for me to see while I'm crafting. I DO care about the donor species.
does a WS or AS have an inventory/house/etc full of "Really Good Metal", "Awesome Hide", and "Grindable Polymer"? no. they have Named_Resource. if our resources can't stack, at LEAST let us sort them and manage the heaps we need to run clones.
until I can MANAGE the several hundred DNA I have stored, adding MORE isn't something I'm eager to do... I'm already NOT storing up to my full potential of 5000+ and having problems.
Yep.
For almost a year got away with just using two houses and my inventory to juggle all the stuff I needed/wanted including DNA. When my guild finaly got another pet making BE in it I 1)jumped for joy (a year is really to long to be the only pet maker), and 2)started keeping a bunch more samples in a factory to share with them.
I realised a long time ago that I'd never be able to store enough DNA to match cutoms order pets. So I never bothered to keep any that I wasn't going to use. It's not like the stuff goes out of spawn.
Inkanissen
Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:56 pm
#36
Well, I have seven lots used for storage. I put all my DNA in backpacks and name them depending on contents such as "MH" and "MR". Pretty easy to find the DNA I want to use that way, I use the examine view for the pack so I can see details for any piece of DNA as I browse the pack. Hence my idea to expand storage with just making a special DNA only building for MBE. I like the pet crafting system a lot, I only wish we could store DNA somehow so that we could have more of it, it is not possible to have several projects going on at the same time due to the many many samples it takes to make 4th gen pets for instance. Storing DNA on a vendor only makes it more complex to manage your DNA in my opinion, not an approach I will take. What ever solution they will come up with, I just hope that it will not be to make generic DNA.
SWG_Miriam
Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:32 pm
#37
The real problem is not that the Devs don't want us to have stackable DNA, but rather that they cannot give us stackable DNA because of the unique nature of each DNA sample. Each one has unique stats. If they simply created a new craftable storage mechanism, each DNA sample would still use up space in a data table -- in essence, giving Bioengineers more database space than other characters. This really wouldn't be fair to the other professions if only Bioengineers were granted "unlimited" database space. They would probably have to create a separate database 32 times for each server just to hold our stuff.
Here's my thoughts: Instead of randomizing a DNA sample to create a unique one at the time of sampling, randomizing could happen when a bio-engineer removes a sample of a generic stack of something like "VHQ Mutant Rancor DNA".
When sampling a creature, instead of the actual DNA sample showing up in our inventory, a stackable object called "VHQ Mutant Rancor DNA Container", or "VHQ Nuna DNA Container" would show up. This way a BE could go out into the field and collect stacks of 1000 VHQ Mutant Rancor DNA which would only take up 1 spot in the inventory. Then she could extract the DNA at her leisure -- at the time of extracting, the DNA sample would randomize into a unique object with unique stacks. Sort of like how Jedi tune their crystals for unique stats.
With this method, I also envision a cottage industry starting up for BEs who would like to start a business just selling DNA. Buying a stack of 1000 Mutant Rancor samples from a (Master Ranger/Combat Class- BE 0/0/4/0) Hybridis very appealing to me -- of course they'd have to move the ability to sample VHQ samples to BE 0/0/4/0. I would certainly pay "top credit" to another BE selling a stack of 100 MR samples. Currently the buying of DNA samples is not viable because of storage issues. This method would make it viable. This would also be a boon to Master Rangers since they can approach Mutant Rancors easier, and would give them one more thing they could harvest for money.
lammergeier
Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:28 am
#38
storage is an issue for some, and there are ways around it...
a line of ten factories gives you 1000 storage OR a line of ten/five small houses (naboo small round/any other) or vendor tents gives you 750 storage.
personal inventory? 60. backpack/etc? 50. bank? 100.
add vendors? more items. LOTS more items (up to 4000 at master merchant). (worried about players buying them? set an exorbitant access fee on the building, and price single DNA samples at 1-10 mil. if anyone DOES 'break in and steal' a sample, they'll be walking out poor.)
add storage droids? 10 per.
I'd love a more elegant solution to storage of DNA, but if we already have the ability to store more than 5k samples of DNA on a single toon, then the problem I see is with DNA MANAGEMENT, not STORAGE. as it is, I have ONLY a few hundred samples to manage, and the problem I have is finding the DNA I have. generally, it's easier to empty my inventory, head to the starport, and collect what I need for each batch of clones I'm running.
I really don't care what the QUALITY of my DNA is: the stats are there for me to see while I'm crafting. I DO care about the donor species.
does a WS or AS have an inventory/house/etc full of "Really Good Metal", "Awesome Hide", and "Grindable Polymer"? no. they have Named_Resource. if our resources can't stack, at LEAST let us sort them and manage the heaps we need to run clones.
until I can MANAGE the several hundred DNA I have stored, adding MORE isn't something I'm eager to do... I'm already NOT storing up to my full potential of 5000+ and having problems.
a line of ten factories gives you 1000 storage OR a line of ten/five small houses (naboo small round/any other) or vendor tents gives you 750 storage.
personal inventory? 60. backpack/etc? 50. bank? 100.
add vendors? more items. LOTS more items (up to 4000 at master merchant). (worried about players buying them? set an exorbitant access fee on the building, and price single DNA samples at 1-10 mil. if anyone DOES 'break in and steal' a sample, they'll be walking out poor.)
add storage droids? 10 per.
I'd love a more elegant solution to storage of DNA, but if we already have the ability to store more than 5k samples of DNA on a single toon, then the problem I see is with DNA MANAGEMENT, not STORAGE. as it is, I have ONLY a few hundred samples to manage, and the problem I have is finding the DNA I have. generally, it's easier to empty my inventory, head to the starport, and collect what I need for each batch of clones I'm running.
I really don't care what the QUALITY of my DNA is: the stats are there for me to see while I'm crafting. I DO care about the donor species.
does a WS or AS have an inventory/house/etc full of "Really Good Metal", "Awesome Hide", and "Grindable Polymer"? no. they have Named_Resource. if our resources can't stack, at LEAST let us sort them and manage the heaps we need to run clones.
until I can MANAGE the several hundred DNA I have stored, adding MORE isn't something I'm eager to do... I'm already NOT storing up to my full potential of 5000+ and having problems.
PlainWhiteSocks
Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:58 am
#39
Hylidex wrote:Actually, the proposal I wrote for this suggested it in order to CONSERVE on disk space. By using a DNA-specific data set, one would not need to store a large number of specific objects, but merely an array with the stats of the DNA in purely numeric form. The objects would be recreated on removal of the DNA from the lab. This is the reason the lab is limited to DNA. As it currently stands, the DNA has a combination of data types, including text, and must be a terrible disk hog, especially if the text is in fixed-length strings.
Actually, all the data for our dna can be stored as raw number data on the server side with lookup tables on the client side. The only thing besides the serial number that needs more than a single byte of storage space is the 10 base stats (hardiness, intellect, etc.). I haven't done any invetigating as to what is actually sent back and forth from the client to the server (call it laziness), but based on experiments with dialup, and muliple machines on one link I'll bet it's not large sums of data. Even if the text lookup tables are on the server (very possible) they only need to store that data once. I'm sure the SOE DBA team has looked at simple things like this even before the game came out. With that said, any increase in the ammount of dna we can store will result in alot more disk space being eatin up. Add to that the other professions that will yell and scream bloody murder if we get more storage space, regardless of the reasons, and you have a very very big mess to clean up after implementation. Kinda a PR nightmare more or less. This is one of the many reasons I don't think they'll ever give BE's specific storage handlers. In fact unless we can come up with sure-fire disk saving strategies I don't think they'll look at dna storage at all.
Please don't get me worng Hylidex, I loved your lab writeup. I would love to see it happen. I just don't see it in the future for us.