Bio Engineer Archive

Your proposal about medical crafting seems logical to me. But I still think medical xp needs to be differentiated from bioengineering xp to avoid dabblers from making nutrients/tissues.

Sampling DNA requires /maskScent. Not mechanically but practically. It's a valid requirement and I welcome the shift from 0040 to 4000.

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rahbert wrote:
Your proposal about medical crafting seems logical to me. But I still think medical xp needs to be differentiated from bioengineering xp to avoid dabblers from making nutrients/tissues.

Sampling DNA requires /maskScent. Not mechanically but practically. It's a valid requirement and I welcome the shift from 0040 to 4000.

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Personally, I think bioengineer, med and combat med experimentation should all be separate. Remember, both CM and Med experimenation and assembly have skill tapes.

HOWEVER, odds are, the programming isnt set up to do this. I cant think of a single profession that has 2 or more different experimentation options. I suspect that when all is said and done, Med Crafting experimentation will work for all Doc, CM and BE crafted items. Furthermore, my guess is that CM experimentation and assembly tapes will be converted to med experimentation. If i didnt already have +25/+25 in both, I'd stack my odds by buying some cheap CM tapes.

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MataHairy wrote:

Ok here is an odd request from a crafting Doc/CM. I'm asking to nerf crafting in the new system.

As it appears now on Beta testing, all Doctor and CM enhances will be craftable with full experimentation and assembly at 0004 BE. I support the idea for all schematics being available, but would like the devs to consider putting one or two experimental and assembly points in MBE.

Why would a current crafting doc want this, you may ask? Well, I am concerned about differentiation between the professional crafters and the casual Doctors and CMs. One of the goals of CU is to have the game easy to play and difficult to master. Full crafting abilities for 2 classes being attainable for just 1 column in an elite profession just doesnt seem right. For a very small skill point investment, the casual crafter can enter the med market with the same skills and abilities as masters. Putting experimental and assembly points, but not schematics, at the MBE level would allow Docs and CMs to make all of their meds to a decent quality,and if desiredbuy higher quality ones from a MBE.

Also along the lines of skill point balance, I think the scout skills should be removed from BE, as implied in TH's note two weeks ago. This change would put BE in line with the artisan based elite crafting professions, requiring only 1 column of Novice prof prerequisites.

If you support this idea, please add your comments and keep it bumped!

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Hi! Can a Master Doc make a comment?

I can certainly understand the concerns herein on these issues. We upstarts are entering your already trod upon turf, bringing our vast resources, cash stocks, (some of the heavy crafters have over 100 mil), and most of all, SEAs.

ALL crafting docs are already smarting over being kicked out of the profession most of us love so much. Most of us are finding ourselves kind of homeless at the moment, wondering what picking up BE will be like, and what kind of mess we're going to find trying to find new life in your profession.

The "bone" the devs are throwing us is we can keep our crafting skills with one column in BE, (since it's one column in Doctor currently). I can certainly appreciate your concerns regarding crafting, (especially if they are actually mixing BE and MD points), and this would be a solid way of protecting your turf!

I hope the devs consider a separation of points, protecting the two sides, however if that doesn't happen, then obviously I hope they allow we docs to salvage at least a little dignity and keep our ability to craft our products.

That being said, I'm still playing catch up here. Is it true we docs may be able to craft BE stuff better than MBE's if we're 0404, because of our SEAs? That would suck for all BE's.

Here's what I can say for certain, (IMHO), none of our desired changes will be added to the CU.

The CU, for the most part, is coded and locked in because they need to get it ready for the ROTW release. I preordered my copy today and I may have it 2-3 weeks prior to the official release! That means they're nearing shipping/release.

What comes in a publish however is another story...

I'm hoping more than anything that a reasonable exchange and sharing of ideas can be reached between us.

From what I've seen, NONE of the doctors wanted this move, and many, many of the crafting docs are going to drop doctor completely. Others are going to embrace the healing offered to them with a passion. However that doesn't speak for all of us of course.

Better or worse...

We're coming...

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TarMangani wrote: Is it true we docs may be able to craft BE stuff better than MBE's if we're 0404, because of our SEAs? That would suck for all BE's.

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sort of true...there are currently no BE SEAs...and tbh we dont need them.

Our Chef and Tailor tissues are limited by resource quality rather than experimentation.

Where this could make a difference is in the pets, but often we dont use all our exp anyway as it would push the cl level too high.

The issue is that an ex Doc with 0004 and a suit can craft better meds than an MBE. Yes that may make more sense under the current system, but under the new system they are BE schematics and surely a Master should be able to craft better than someone with only 1/4 of the boxes...

Veto!

I dont like the idea of putting some medical exp points in the MBE box. There are a lot of current docs that enjoy the crafting _and_ healing side, and their templates would be wrecked by needing roughly double the skill points than before, pretty much ridding them of any combat class.

However, I understand that a current 12pt doc will have more experimentation points available than a MBE has for current BE products, which is not right. Therefore, there should be Tissue Crafting / Pet Crafting experimentation granted from novice BE till master BE, and Medical experimentation granted by medic xxx4 and BE xxx4. That way, current MBEs will have a headstart in their current business, while Docs turned BE will have an advantage on the medical crafting for CM and Doc products.

There is no way you can satisfy the majority of current BEs and current crafting MDs by only having one type of experimentation skill for both post-CU.

Quoth LloydPickering,

> there are currently no BE SEAs...and tbh we dont need them.
> [...]
> often we dont use all our exp anyway as it would push the cl level too high.

Often. Not always. Extra experiment points making pets would be a huge thing in my opinion.

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Eskie wrote:
Veto!

I dont like the idea of putting some medical exp points in the MBE box. There are a lot of current docs that enjoy the crafting _and_ healing side, and their templates would be wrecked by needing roughly double the skill points than before, pretty much ridding them of any combat class.

However, I understand that a current 12pt doc will have more experimentation points available than a MBE has for current BE products, which is not right. Therefore, there should be Tissue Crafting / Pet Crafting experimentation granted from novice BE till master BE, and Medical experimentation granted by medic xxx4 and BE xxx4. That way, current MBEs will have a headstart in their current business, while Docs turned BE will have an advantage on the medical crafting for CM and Doc products.

There is no way you can satisfy the majority of current BEs and current crafting MDs by only having one type of experimentation skill for both post-CU.

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It's just a soar subject for some of us BE's. First we were a peaceful profession. Then the chef revamp came. With this revamp came a fix to additive recipes that called for milk, for instance. With hologrinding came shortterm MBE's who'd make a quick credit selling BE additives for little to no cost to chefs (oh boy they got so spoiled). After all, why be a chef if you can't make a 300% profit? Because 299.999% profit just isn't enough. [Chefs began to demand schematics up the whazoo because their sources dropped BE for their next holos. People like me would refuse for I'm no schematic monkey. I did spend alot of credits buying meat from rangers. In the end, I had superior additives that never got sold.] Now, things have settled down because many chefs have BE alts or BE guildies who hook them up. I will occasionally see a chef dabble into petmaking, but soon drop out since their pets just suck. Now people will be jumping on the bandwagon and overpopulate the BE prof again. I'm already seeing it happening where people in the know are getting BE just before the revamp so they can establish partnerships. That's all fine and dandy to me. No experience in the game will give them insight into petmaking (which is my forte). So since my business won't be directly affected by all this, the tells I used to get for additive schematics will soon be replaced with requests for stim/subcomponent schematics. Oh well, maybe a year after the CURB things will be settled down again.

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RancorPoker wrote:

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Eskie wrote:
Veto!

(...)

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It's just a soar subject for some of us BE's. First we were a peaceful profession. Then the chef revamp came. With this revamp came a fix to additive recipes that called for milk, for instance. With hologrinding came shortterm MBE's who'd make a quick credit selling BE additives for little to no cost to chefs (oh boy they got so spoiled). After all, why be a chef if you can't make a 300% profit? Because 299.999% profit just isn't enough. [Chefs began to demand schematics up the whazoo because their sources dropped BE for their next holos. People like me would refuse for I'm no schematic monkey. I did spend alot of credits buying meat from rangers. In the end, I had superior additives that never got sold.] Now, things have settled down because many chefs have BE alts or BE guildies who hook them up. I will occasionally see a chef dabble into petmaking, but soon drop out since their pets just suck. Now people will be jumping on the bandwagon and overpopulate the BE prof again. I'm already seeing it happening where people in the know are getting BE just before the revamp so they can establish partnerships. That's all fine and dandy to me. No experience in the game will give them insight into petmaking (which is my forte). So since my business won't be directly affected by all this, the tells I used to get for additive schematics will soon be replaced with requests for stim/subcomponent schematics. Oh well, maybe a year after the CURB things will be settled down again.

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I doubt BEs will get requests for stim or subcomponent schematics. The reason you get requests for chef schematics is because they depend on your additives, but have the financial power to get the resources and have food factories, anyway.

In stim and enhancer production, on the other hand, BEs are making the final combine. No sense for a non-med crafter to have a schematic made, they will just buy the finished products. A tailor doesnt go to an armorsmith to have an armor schematic made to run through his wearables factory, either.

I dont like the way this is going right now, either.

I never asked to become a BE, neither did any other crafting doc ever. But apparently for doc to be considered a combat profession, the crafting side needed to be split away, and BE seems to be the most logical choice to place it (you already craft pet stims). There is nothing wrong with this so far.

What is wrong, though, is that the devs allow a BE-0404-turned 12pt doc to be a better crafter than a long-existing master BE instantly, at least for the additive market. But current crafting docs will take BE 0004 at least, if not 0404 for that extra market at a very low skill point cost.

The medical experimentation cannot be moved into the master box for the reasons I already stated, and current 12pt doc suits cannot be broken. Which pretty much only leaves the option of applying different experimentation skills to the current BE products and the future medical crafting, and place part of the BE experimentation into the master box as it is now. Otherwise, current BEs will either have to compete with the former docs, pretty much forcing them to play the 12pt game, or lose the additive market slowly to 12pt BEs.

You do make some valid points. I say they should make doc a combat prof while keeping the crafting portion where it has been. If they don't, and continue to include it in BE, I propose skipping the boxes so the skills don't come on the first four. Rather, place it in Novice, Techniques 2 and 4. Then dump the rest into master. If they keep the points seperate, as you proposed, then I'm game. Agreeing with your point, I'm not hot on the notion that some 12 point doc can come in and sweep the market from the BE's that have established businesses. All at the expense of skillpoints recovered from dropping master medic. I may have amassed a small fortune ingame, but I am not nearly close enough to get 12 points if it were to go all on med crafting points.

BE is my chosen profession/class, and I enjoy it despite all the lost DNA from critical failures [OUCH]. The chef revamp almost killed the game for me [the crits did that alone 7 months ago]. I'm sure things will change as the devs pour through the user feedback people fill when they logout of TC5. But, assuming things will stand as they are, I'll likely find myself at the end of an era. It would definitely be a game breaker [permanently]. Until CURB is live, I'll just hope for the best.

Overall, I'm concerned with BE in general. If they really do drop the scout requirement, then the information like creature knowledge won't be accessible by BE's when hunting specific stats for the pet creation phase. Unless they put creature knowledge stats up the DNA tree, creature stats are completely obscured to novice scouts AFAIK. And for cloners like my toon, Ranger is in the template so I gained absolutely nothing with the requirments. No loss there, since I have 0 skillpoints now and will have 0 skillpoints with the CURB.

Message Edited by RancorPoker on 04-07-2005 03:57 PM

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MataHairy wrote:

Ok here is an odd request from a crafting Doc/CM. I'm asking to nerf crafting in the new system.

As it appears now on Beta testing, all Doctor and CM enhances will be craftable with full experimentation and assembly at 0004 BE. I support the idea for all schematics being available, but would like the devs to consider putting one or two experimental and assembly points in MBE.

I'd be happy if they just removed the medical crafting skill mods.

Why would a current crafting doc want this, you may ask? Well, I am concerned about differentiation between the professional crafters and the casual Doctors and CMs. One of the goals of CU is to have the game easy to play and difficult to master. Full crafting abilities for 2 classes being attainable for just 1 column in an elite profession just doesnt seem right. For a very small skill point investment, the casual crafter can enter the med market with the same skills and abilities as masters. Putting experimental and assembly points, but not schematics, at the MBE level would allow Docs and CMs to make all of their meds to a decent quality,and if desiredbuy higher quality ones from a MBE.

A 0004 dabbler with a skill mod will actually craft medical supplies better than a master BE can. :smileysad:

Also along the lines of skill point balance, I think the scout skills should be removed from BE, as implied in TH's note two weeks ago. This change would put BE in line with the artisan based elite crafting professions, requiring only 1 column of Novice prof prerequisites.

The scout requirement shows up in Test but by all indications and comments from the developers the scout requirement is gone. The crux is, a master BE MUST have scout skills if they hope to get even remotely close to a high level aggro animal in order to collect DNA. I'd just as soon drop medic for scout skills myself. Every coin has two sides.

If you support this idea, please add your comments and keep it bumped!

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