Artisan Archive
Thread: So you want to cert harvs? Fine. Here's a proposal you won't like...
Scoooter
Thu Jun 24, 2004 8:38 am
#105
Basically you would have to prove that people who responeded were invalid and remove their votes:
An invalid respondant is:
Anyone that voted that does not have any artisan skill, or an alternate accountwith artisan skills. Any person with any artisan skills have input in this profession.
In the case of certs I would also include all crafters that are not based off the artisan tree but that can be debated later.
I can save you some time with myself. My sig says Master Doctor but I have an alt (Keysor) that is a Master Artisan.
BiancaMinola
Thu Jun 24, 2004 9:13 am
#106
Talk about beating a dead horse.
A poll doesn't mean a thing unless there are very strict rules about the sample used.
The poll is meaningless. BUT, even if it were a 'scientific' poll, popular does not mean right - Titanic is the highest grossing film of all time, Slavery was justified for millenia by the 'popular' vote, the majority support the 'war on drugs', Bill Clinton was elected as potus - twice, Michael Jackson is the most successful 'pop' star of all time.
If the poll is your only, or best argument - you lose the debate.
Bianca Minola
Bugbait
Thu Jun 24, 2004 9:25 am
#107
Scoooter wrote:
Why do you consider the poll invalid? There was noting invalid about it. No more than any other poll on these forums.
The very question was pointless. Maybe the use of invalid was misleading. In this instance I considered pointless as being the same as invalid. It was a laoded question to begin with and the result was as expected. Ask the board of directors of Nike if they think sweat shops are bad. What answer would you expect? Now ask "idealistic" Univeristy students if they think it's bad. Bet you get a very different answer.
Of course the majority who voted in that poll were against harvester certifications. It's human nature to be self serving. Harvester certifications to most means a diminished capacity for self sufficiency. When given the chance most people prefer the easy road. Why do you think there are moreoverweight people in first world nations? Because exercise and staying in shape is harder than being a slob.
Go to any forum and run a poll asking if they would like to be "nerfed". I'd be surprised if the majority voted yes.
Would running a poll about who should win an election when 80% of the peopleaskedare knownRepublicans be considered valid? Maybe, but it wouldn't be statistically meaningful.
Bugbait
Thu Jun 24, 2004 9:37 am
#108
Scoooter wrote:
Basically you would have to prove that people who responeded were invalid and remove their votes:
An invalid respondant is:
Anyone that voted that does not have any artisan skill, or an alternate accountwith artisan skills. Any person with any artisan skills have input in this profession.
In the case of certs I would also include all crafters that are not based off the artisan tree but that can be debated later.
I can save you some time with myself. My sig says Master Doctor but I have an alt (Keysor) that is a Master Artisan.
No, a valid respondant is someone who has nothing to gain from the outcome of the vote. It's the only way to ensure impartiality. Any self serving vote is not statistically valid when you're trying to determine "balance" or "fair". Anymeaningful pollconcerning a "balanced" or "fair" decision should only be voted on by those that are impartial. Any bias invalidates any such polls. When tackling questions of balance and fairness you should adopt the mindset of judge not a groupie in apopularity contest.
Scoooter
Thu Jun 24, 2004 9:40 am
#109
BiancaMinola wrote:
Talk about beating a dead horse.
A poll doesn't mean a thing unless there are very strict rules about the sample used.
The poll is meaningless. BUT, even if it were a 'scientific' poll, popular does not mean right - Titanic is the highest grossing film of all time, Slavery was justified for millenia by the 'popular' vote, the majority support the 'war on drugs', Bill Clinton was elected as potus - twice, Michael Jackson is the most successful 'pop' star of all time.
If the poll is your only, or best argument - you lose the debate.
Bianca Minola
Now in the heck did you interpret that the poll was part of my argument. All I did was respond to anincorrectremark about the poll LMAO.
BiancaMinola
Thu Jun 24, 2004 9:45 am
#110
If it's not an argument for your side, why does it keep getting brought up - as support for your side?
Bianca Minola
Scoooter
Thu Jun 24, 2004 9:52 am
#111
LMFAO Well your side brought it up
I just responded ... read back
Giamai
Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:16 pm
#112
the one thing about the poll that makes it questionable is not who voted or what their profs are but that not many peoplevoted based their vote on the question at hand. The question given was not whether or not there should be harvester certifications but the question was whether or not the question of harvester certifications should be an artisan issue and therefore presented as one of the artisan dev questions. everybody seems to have forgotten that little tidbit 
HalasterTheBlack
Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:53 pm
#113
Giamai wrote:
the one thing about the poll that makes it questionable is not who voted or what their profs are but that not many peoplevoted based their vote on the question at hand. The question given was not whether or not there should be harvester certifications but the question was whether or not the question of harvester certifications should be an artisan issue and therefore presented as one of the artisan dev questions. everybody seems to have forgotten that little tidbit
But the way this forum and these discussions and our devs work, making certs a top-5 is the same thing as asking for certs. Knowing how this all works, the vote wasn't so much about whether or not we should talk about them, but whether or not we should ask the devs to consider implementing them.
Giamai
Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:21 pm
#114
thats actually kind of the point i'm trying to make about guruweaver's poll
the point is that people were not all answering the same question, you had your interpretation as meaning whether or not harvester certifications should be implemented. i took a more literal interpretation of the question as did a number of other people. because not everyone was on the same page so to speak, the poll was altered into a harvester certs yes or no in general kind of thing for a good chunk of the respondants. a source of bias, perhaps more significant than one introduced into questioning whether or not the respondants were artisans. most had sigs suggesting that they were crafters of some sort.
my answer on the poll itself still stands, the question of whether or not there should be harvester certifications as a top 5 question for the artisans is still no. it is an issue that affects numerous professions, some of which are crafting professions that legitamately do not have to include any skill points in artisan (smuggler, doctor, etc) and therefore it is a core systems issue.
BiancaMinola
Thu Jun 24, 2004 6:35 pm
#115
Giamai wrote:
it is an issue that affects numerous professions, some of which are crafting professions that legitamately do not have to include any skill points in artisan (smuggler, doctor, etc) and therefore it is a core systems issue.
I absolutely agree with this statement. However, it is a lot easier to discuss these issues in a smaller forum - the volume is too loud in the larger ones to have a serious debate. Those who are interested in the subject matter will find all of the threads. There are several elites that have MA as a suppliment to their other 'profession' who follow this forum, and would raise an alarm in the other forums ifanything got too out of line.
However, I also believe that there is a very strong case for Certs - whatever the poll says. If they ever were to be implemented, the entire community will have their chance to pipe in. And they will.
Bianca Minola
Bugbait
Thu Jun 24, 2004 6:55 pm
#116
In answer to your first question, yes, anyone on either side of the fence who has something to gain should be excluded. Do you think judges really care that much about half the cases that preside over? Well, besides caring aboutreaching a reasonable and fair conclusion. You don't have to care about soemthing to make a judgement or form an opinion it. Half the time I don't care about voting at an election but I still do it.
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
Since the pro-cert crowd has more to gain than the elite artisans have to lose, should their votes also be excluded?
If only disinterested parties should vote on an issue... well... why would someone who's not interested in the issue VOTE on the issue?
ThothTheWise
Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:29 pm
#117
There is but ONE quick way to "fix" *cough* this situation....then of course theres the "right" way.
Which the Devs will pick is beyond me, but these are my opinions.
Way 1) simply remove the admin feature from harvestors and factories.
Way 2) Return to the Original Design at the time of Beta and after JTL ReImplement the professions of Industrialist and Miner.
Way 1, while being easy, affects more than just those like Myself who have x-server Lot traded. as such while effective, will cause a bit of an uproar.
Way 2 is Much more prefered in MY opinion. In early Beta every one could own but ONE HOUSE,...I would then propose to return to that again. This makes the larger Structures of Value for their storage capabilities.
The Industrialist Profession was there to allow individuals to operate more than ONE factory as well as gain some time bonuses in their operation. This was to get crafters and "business" to work together to produce factory runs of iteams. You (as a crafter) would SELL a scematic for a price to the Industrialist and he would then do the runs. He would then also SELL factory ran products for the crafters to buy if they wished not to await their ONE FACTORY ALLOTED TO THEM to run out all the different iteams they needed. REINSTITUE THIS CLASS, while also reintroduce the scematic Limit to 100.
The Merchant Profession was to be the ONLY profession out there with the ability to own and possess more than one house, and those were to be Tents. Along with their other abilities this would have allowed them to use them as either Selling points for their vendors, or as U-STOR-IT buildings for other people. At 75 extra storage each the unbalanceing effects are quite minimal.
The Mining Profession </cry> was (befor the unthinking declared it boring and irrelevant to the economy) to have been the Mass Havesting Source for all your Resourcing Needs. With Certs for mediums and heavies at different places within the tree as well as bonuses for their pull rates and, as has and was suggested, possibly the granting of more Lots to be used ONLY in conjuction with dropping More Harvestors.
The taking out of these professions and not countering the effects of it is what has led us to this situation. X-server cross trading originated because there was no other avenu to use to achieve the demands for the needs requiered. I have gone so far as gather and TRADEACCOUNT INFO with people upon my own server just to x-server lottrade. Why? because almost every bloody crafter/militant has more than one house and or more than one factory. Renting Lots is not a productive way to achieve ones goals.
Most Militants possess large abodes for the "cool" factor so that leaves them with 4 lots. Bothering that person (not to mention PAYING THEM) is foolish when the ability to cross lot trade exists in the manner of Mutal assured destruction of assets. Trust is easily maintained. One must remember that while not in retrospect looked upon as "within the spirit of the game" Lot Trading is not soly used by miners.
MANY times have i placed PA HALLS, and Factories for people who didnt mine. (i actually LOVED those trades...very easy to do)
The Devs got to far away from their vision of Specialization, and small departmentalization that they had in Beta. and its going to cost everyone now. To be a crafter was to be able to slowly craft things, unless one also took mining and industrialist/merchant.
What this WOULD HAVE accomplished was less overall competition of the master crafting professions, and more interdependancy on each other from components. The reason is MOST crafters would have either Specialized and CRAFTED, or dispursed their interests into some mining (to get medium harvs) Merchant( to get vendors and maybe a tad more storage) and enough Inductrialist to get another factory or so and speed up the process.
Leave it as is untill you cango back to the ORIGINAL CONCEPT. As has been Proven, by those like myself who spend 3 or more hours DAILY managing fleets of harvestors, there IS A CALL for the profession.
I'm willing to wait for it.