Artisan Archive
Thread: So you want to cert harvs? Fine. Here's a proposal you won't like...
Arcurium wrote:
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Just stop the whining.
Noone in this thread is whining but you right now. Join the debate, or go troll one of the other forums.
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If they did certify harvesters and people started pushing up prices, I would open 3 more accounts for 3 months, runmy accounts asmasterartisans on Valcyn server, and runthe other artisansout of business selling all resources for "mycost+ .1 credit" simply because I can afford to do it.
Wow, you have $45 a month extra to splurge! With that kind of buying power, I'll bet you can bring down the whole SWG economy.
Just make sure if you do it you send me a PM, so I can come buy it up.
Please submit well thought out OPTIONS to Fix the issue. As shown in the Below example.
Reading ideas and expounding upon them is USUALLY the best course of action.
ThothTheWise wrote:
There is but ONE quick way to "fix" *cough* this situation....then of course theres the "right" way.
Which the Devs will pick is beyond me, but these are my opinions.
Way 1) simply remove the admin feature from harvestors and factories.
Way 2) Return to the Original Design at the time of Beta and after JTL ReImplement the professions of Industrialist and Miner.
Way 1, while being easy, affects more than just those like Myself who have x-server Lot traded. as such while effective, will cause a bit of an uproar.
Way 2 is Much more prefered in MY opinion. In early Beta every one could own but ONE HOUSE,...I would then propose to return to that again. This makes the larger Structures of Value for their storage capabilities.
The Industrialist Profession was there to allow individuals to operate more than ONE factory as well as gain some time bonuses in their operation. This was to get crafters and "business" to work together to produce factory runs of iteams. You (as a crafter) would SELL a scematic for a price to the Industrialist and he would then do the runs. He would then also SELL factory ran products for the crafters to buy if they wished not to await their ONE FACTORY ALLOTED TO THEM to run out all the different iteams they needed. REINSTITUE THIS CLASS, while also reintroduce the scematic Limit to 100.
The Merchant Profession was to be the ONLY profession out there with the ability to own and possess more than one house, and those were to be Tents. Along with their other abilities this would have allowed them to use them as either Selling points for their vendors, or as U-STOR-IT buildings for other people. At 75 extra storage each the unbalanceing effects are quite minimal.
The Mining Profession was (befor the unthinking declared it boring and irrelevant to the economy) to have been the Mass Havesting Source for all your Resourcing Needs. With Certs for mediums and heavies at different places within the tree as well as bonuses for their pull rates and, as has and was suggested, possibly the granting of more Lots to be used ONLY in conjuction with dropping More Harvestors.
The taking out of these professions and not countering the effects of it is what has led us to this situation. X-server cross trading originated because there was no other avenu to use to achieve the demands for the needs requiered. I have gone so far as gather and TRADEACCOUNT INFO with people upon my own server just to x-server lottrade. Why? because almost every bloody crafter/militant has more than one house and or more than one factory. Renting Lots is not a productive way to achieve ones goals.
Most Militants possess large abodes for the "cool" factor so that leaves them with 4 lots. Bothering that person (not to mention PAYING THEM) is foolish when the ability to cross lot trade exists in the manner of Mutal assured destruction of assets. Trust is easily maintained. One must remember that while not in retrospect looked upon as "within the spirit of the game" Lot Trading is not soly used by miners.
MANY times have i placed PA HALLS, and Factories for people who didnt mine. (i actually LOVED those trades...very easy to do)
The Devs got to far away from their vision of Specialization, and small departmentalization that they had in Beta. and its going to cost everyone now. To be a crafter was to be able to slowly craft things, unless one also took mining and industrialist/merchant.
What this WOULD HAVE accomplished was less overall competition of the master crafting professions, and more interdependancy on each other from components. The reason is MOST crafters would have either Specialized and CRAFTED, or dispursed their interests into some mining (to get medium harvs) Merchant( to get vendors and maybe a tad more storage) and enough Inductrialist to get another factory or so and speed up the process.
Leave it as is untill you cango back to the ORIGINAL CONCEPT. As has been Proven, by those like myself who spend 3 or more hours DAILY managing fleets of harvestors, there IS A CALL for the profession.
I'm willing to wait for it.
Bugbait wrote:
No, a valid respondant is someone who has nothing to gain from the outcome of the vote. It's the only way to ensure impartiality. Any self serving vote is not statistically valid when you're trying to determine "balance" or "fair". Anymeaningful pollconcerning a "balanced" or "fair" decision should only be voted on by those that are impartial. Any bias invalidates any such polls. When tackling questions of balance and fairness you should adopt the mindset of judge not a groupie in apopularity contest.
Velisimner wrote:
It all comes down to combat profs not wanting to lose their resource cash cow...nuff **edit**ing said. i would like to see x-server lot trades taken outta the game. as for certs, cert have to be implemented...some how a MBH should not be able to pull up as much as a Surveyor.
You couldn't be more wrong
It comes down to the fact that elite crafters are gouged enough by resource vendors and therefore mine themselves. Certs will make the problem worse.
TH stated that there will be a "character lot rebalance"...some solution to deal with cross server trades. We don't know what that means yet however so those are bing addressed and all agree are a huge issue.
The miner professession was removed for good reason. SInce all professions depend of crafters funnelling all crafters through one profession (miner) as a dependency. And since miners sole content was "make credits and everyone depends on me" the nested dependency was considered detrimental to the game (and it is). So the planting of harvesters was changed to be an action requiring no skill. Skills are not required for all actions in this game.
It is also about the fact that is it a novice profession like artisan should not be a big money maker. The game is not designed that way.
And no certs do not HAVE to be implimented the arguments show that. What NEEDS to happen is deal with cross server trades and clearly define the issue at hand.
joined42904 wrote:
I don't think the arguments clearly show that certification isn't needed. I actually believe the converse is true.
The combat guys don't want their cash cow nerfed. The Commando Correspondant told us that. Some of them probably participated in Guruweaver's poll.
But a bigger factor is the oligopolistic elite crafters who want their guild's combat guys to be able to mine for them. That's a very major issue. They want this because they are afraid of a rise in the price of resources if certs are implemented. Regardless of how they are implemented.
Aside from Halaster, it seems to me most of the anti-cert crowd is using the "novice profession" argument as a red herring to avoid certifications entirely. Most of the pro-cert crowd would be perfectly content with bringing back the miner profession. Not so for those opposed to certs such as Scooter.
You hear about all kinds of apocalyptic predictions of what prices will be if certs are implemented. To which I resond "Hogwash!" Prices for something that it only takes less than 0.5 cpu to bring out of the ground can only go so high. Otherwise folks will play 2 servers and maybe alternate their combat character's and miner's templatesor transfer credits from server to server via trade.
I love the idea of forcing everyone to have only one house. And maybe two additional tents for merchants. Just imagine what would have to happen to all those hoarded resources if this were implemented. How would you like to tell your guildmate: No you can't have a cool-looking house because I need you to put all my resources there. No...can't store your new interesting loot either. Have to hold on to the 100k stacks of my resources instead. Lol. Not a guild I would want to be in if I were a combat guy.
The beauty of the one-house rule is really that it makes you have to have an entire extraaccount to be able to store a very limited number of additional resources.
I'm not sure the Industrialist would go over well at all. Especially for folks like armorsmiths who need to run 3 factories to keep stocked once their business is off and running. I think one factory is too little fora master elite crafter. Maybe two. That would create dyseconomies of scale. And how about having to be able to craft an item to use a schematic in a factory? That this isn't so originally came as a surprise to me. But now I understand it. It's because the Industrialist was taken out at the last minute.
The key to making crafting fun and interesting and actually having a challenging game economy is limiting what can be produced by one person...even if he or she has access to multiple accounts.
Certification all it does as divert where the cash is going, the resource will be purchased. The question is will enough of the right quality of resource be mined and what the prices will be.
The hologrind will be soon gone.
From my observations on my server and guild (100+ mebership) is that its not the elite crafters using combat types to mine..its the huge mining conglomerates that use these people to get quantity,not elite crafters. You need to get more facts to back your statement about "oligopolistic elite crafters"
Most of the larger elite crafters have alts,most elite crafting professions (except architect which don't really have a repeat item to sell) can getenough resource to last a very long timewith just them and their alt.
I see heavy used of combat types being used by huge resource companies, but not elite crafters.
You can say hogwash all you want. We on the other hand have current and past behavior of people that call themselves miners. Most miners dont know what is good to mine for one, and if they do they charge 10-40 cpu today. Well how high is it supposed to be. Elite crafters mine because since mining costs are fixed no matter how the economy changes all they see are "miners" raising the prices to suit their own ends when their costs do not change at all.
And yes at this point in time I am opposed to certs and miner as they have been proposed. Placing all crafting professions dependant on a single profession creates an obvious bottleneck.
Lots should still be the limiting factor..lkimiting houses and factires should not..Factory runs take too much time.
Scoooter wrote:
It is also about the fact that is it a novice profession like artisan should not be a big money maker. The game is not designed that way.
I think you are totally wrong on this aspect. I'm a Master Artisan and have been for a long time, way before bikes. I make money just fine. Hell when I was just a Master Marksman I was still making a killing... so I say you are wrong here.
Your idea of "elite = big moeny" is off. BESIDES, the devs have also stated that they had NO idea how the player market would turn out, hence they did not go out of their way to make noivce profession not worth the time and effort people put into them.
Hell, all you need is just one Solo group and you can make a killing in a hour. hell Running "novice" missions can even earn you a nice bit.
Getting back on topic:
The whole point of certing harvestors in mine mind (and this is just me) is meant to bring CONTENT to this profession. IF harvestors were certed to 0004 of the artisan treee, it would force the non-crafting professions to SPEND skill points in order to place harvestors. If this was to happen I would be cool with that, in fact i think it would turn most people off as they would rather not spend the skill points on said craft.
And as you have stated.. artisan is easy to master... so mastering just one branch should even be easier.
I also look at it this way... I can't pick up a flame thrower and use it like a Cammando... SO... why should a combat base profession be able to place a harvestor and get the same results as me?
