Artisan Archive
Thread: So you want to cert harvs? Fine. Here's a proposal you won't like...
dman this was just starting to get good.
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
Personally, I would prefer to buy resources at a fair price. Fair in this case being around 3cpu for a current spawn. If I can do that, I can sell my finished goods at a *very* competitive price. If I have to buy at 20 for a current spawn as you've suggested I should, I have to sell so high as to price myself out of the realm of what those who use my goods could afford. Or, I suppose, I could lower my profit margin to be significantly below that of the miner, but that's hardly fair considering his job is easier than mine and my job is closer to the consumer than his, both meaning I should have a better profit margin (in a reasonably realistic economy).
Fair is a relative term. I've supplied numbers which no one has refuted. How about you supply some now? Stop being vague and back your argument with some numbers. Facts add more weight for any argument. As a crafter and seller of Stim B's I make a minimum of 15cpu and that's using my worst resources for sub components and final assembly. I consider that a great markup for raw materials that are almost worthless. My best Stim B's are easily 25cpu or more and that's not evenusing Advanced CRDM's. I also sell power ups at 25cpu and I sell a lot of them.
Actually, it means the resource conglomerate that I buy from can mine sufficiently to keep the price of resources in the realm of comfort for me, and thus the price of my crafted wares in the realm of "good deal" for my customers.
At 3cpu I still make a minimum of 12cpu for my worst Stim's. That leaves enough buffer for some increases in price. Then again, I wouldn't pay 3cpu for the garbage I use in my base Stim's. At 8-10cpu for the good stuff that still leaves me with a 15cpu markup, more than the resource reseller is making. Who's being greedy again?
Sure, some don't want to mine. I don't mind mining so much. It's just that if all I could mine with was my artisan toon, I wouldn't be able to mine enough. It's not about feeling that I shouldn't have to. It's about the fact that I *can't*.
Get better contracts with miners then. Interdependancy is a grossly overlooked and underdeveloped part of SWG at the moment.
Why should miners make a significantlyhigher profit margin than the person who crafts the finished goods, espeically when far more effort goes into the finished goods than goes into mining?
See above. It's only a higher margin in percentage terms. In nominal or credit terms the elite crafter should and does continue to make more profit per unit. The time invested in crafting is not much different to that of mining. When you're trying to deploy a "fleet" instead of just a few harvesters adequate harvesting locations can be time consuming. I spend far less time crafting schematics, managing factories and loading my vendor than I do surveying and moving harvesters. Factories and vendors both operate 24/7 in automated mode just like harvesters. Given surveying and harvesting consumes more of my time than elite crafting I should be making more money as a harvester based on your logic.
Profit can also be measured in percentages. 4000% profit for a simple mining operation, and only because you chose to spend 19 skill credits *once* is a bit steep. Er, greedy, actually.
We're not writing a sales brochure here. Percentages make your argument lookstronger butthen credits make my argument look better. Which is right? Neither is right or wrong, they merely represent the data differently and skew perceptions for the lay man.
There already *are* scarce resources. The best WS copper ever on my server. The best Irolunn Reactive Gas ever on my server. The best Phrik Aluminum on my server. Time plays a factor in rarity too, as does spawns overlapping each other.
I agree, but what's the relevance to this argument? Some resources are meant to be rare. There should be rewards for those that plan ahead.
Certification will inhibit new crafters from entering the game by limiting the volume they can produce because they can only afford to produce goods for which they can mine themselves. It will further hinder their entry into the crafting game because they will not be able to afford to buy from miners. But ultimately what it will do is force them to be miners instead of crafters, because that's where the money is.
But... if you bought the game to be a Weaponsmith or Shipwright, are you really gonna keep paying for it if you're forced to be a Miner instead?
Show me the numbers that indicate that people will quit because the game becomes "harder". You keep using thisline of argument but have absolutely no evidence to back it up. I know a lot of people who quit because the game wasn't challenging enough. I'm bored because the game is far too easy.
Economies of scale are not a barrier to entry in this game.Brand recognition and/or turnover are the the biggest barriers to entry. Ask any retired weaponsmith on Valcyn why they quitor failed. Whether it's true or not they all blame it on 2key things:
- Low markup on weapons (see StGabriel's arguments concerning this problem) made the "cost" to compete greater than the "reward/retun" therefore it wasn't worthwhile to be in the market. In the early days people would pay 80k for a non-stocked T-21 on Valcyn. They didn't want to but they did and were able to still make a profit with it (ie. Cost of hunting or earning credtis still exceeded the cost of earning it due to item wear and tear). Then they got used to only paying 25k or less. This made the constumers happy because the "cost" of earning credits reduced. The current price of T-21's has slowly creeped up to 55k+ again and people are still buying them like candy. Consumers are far more price elastic than you think.
- Lack of turnover. The established WS's are able to over supply the current consumer base so why would they want to try new WS's? Compete on price? See above, not really viable.
Reducing the stockpiles and easy access to vast amounts of top resources would allow new crafters to compete. If the dominant crafters are forced to use lesser resources then the patient new craftercan launch themselves into the market with superior goods. That would add a new and interesting dimension to the crafting game I think. It should be hard to remain dominant or on top. At the moment, once you've got a strong customer base you can go to sleep.
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
Heh, keep thinking that.
So... did you step down from correspondent, or were you... invited... to step down?
I left voluntarily for my own sanity's sake.
Bianca Minola
Is this yourbest argument? It was a very flawed poll which we've discussed and concluded so why keep bring it up? There was a time when slavery and racial segregation was popular and supported by many as well. Does that make it right? What point are you actually trying to make with this anyway?
Scoooter wrote:
Yes there was a poll that got soundly defeated. Do a search.
Until THAT POLL, when someone raised a furor among the non-artisan community about this issue, the opposite was true.
I really don't know where you have been, but every time this has been proposed alal elite crafters have had a united front on this and that front is reflected in that poll. Because other than the medical profession all other elite crafters are artisans also. And many of the medical professions have alts that are MA's like me.
All the threads in the elite professions on this do show a resounding NO
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
If you can drag a statement out of a dev that supports your theory that too many resources are entering the economy and will continue to do so after x-server trades are addressed, I'll be happy to provide thoughts addressing that as well. Again, upon my return.
These reports only cover currency, as I mentioned. Tracking resources is actually a bit of a pain because there're literally hundreds of them, and they expire all the time. I keep waiting to find a commodities tracking and futures exchange on a fansite.
_________________________________________________________________
Did you catch that? The developers have no idea of what the resource situation is.
It kinda makes you wonder how they can make any claims (with any confidence) about the economy. THE DEVS HAVE NO IDEA, and I suppose are waiting for a fan site to do the research for them. You can not talk about the SWG economy and ignore the resource situation. The two are inseperable - but the devs seem content to keep their head in the sand - while telling us everything is OK.
Does anyone else see the problem here?
If the devs gave us the numbers, and resources held weren't inflating at an insane rate, I'd gladly drop my Harv. Cert. crusade. The fact remains that the devs don't care enough about the economy to track half of it. Hell, they probably don't have any idea that resources have anything to do with the economy.If they did, we would have honest to God sinks for resources (decay or the like) to counter the Niagra Falls of a resource faucet they have created,and it would be tracked (metrics is one of Holocron's recurring themes - he preaches 'track everything' - so why is it that resources were forgotten?).
Maybe we should have a dev tool to track resources as one of our top 5. At least then SOMEONE would be able to say with certainty what the resource situation is. And one side or the other of this debate would get the death nail that could end all of this cert talk.
Bianca Minola
joined42904 wrote:
I may be wrong about this...
But I suspect that the elite profession folks who oppose this change just want to keep down the price of resources. And some folks, including some I am sure who sincerely believe it, have scared these people into believing that resource Armageddon will occur if harv certs and no-admin are adopted.
The lower the price of resources, the higher the markup of an individual crafter.
Personally, I would prefer to buy resources at a fair price. Fair in this case being around 3cpu for a current spawn. If I can do that, I can sell my finished goods at a *very* competitive price. If I have to buy at 20 for a current spawn as you've suggested I should, I have to sell so high as to price myself out of the realm of what those who use my goods could afford. Or, I suppose, I could lower my profit margin to be significantly below that of the miner, but that's hardly fair considering his job is easier than mine and my job is closer to the consumer than his, both meaning I should have a better profit margin (in a reasonably realistic economy).
Without certs, the elite crafter can rent lots and have his or her combat friends place heavy harvesters on important spawns. This makes the life of the elite crafter easier.
Actually, it means the resource conglomerate that I buy from can mine sufficiently to keep the price of resources in the realm of comfort for me, and thus the price of my crafted wares in the realm of "good deal" for my customers.
Some elite crafters do not want to mine. Notice what some of the "miner" threads say. They have the temerity to ask why elite crafters should feel that they have to mine.
Sure, some don't want to mine. I don't mind mining so much. It's just that if all I could mine with was my artisan toon, I wouldn't be able to mine enough. It's not about feeling that I shouldn't have to. It's about the fact that I *can't*.
Would there be some kind of resource price increase if certs and no-admin were adopted? Certainly. Could the elite crafters pass this increase on (not as a percentage but as a flat increase) to their customers without too much increase in the price of goods if they were so inclined? Certainly. Would they want to do that? I don't know.
Why should miners make a significantlyhigher profit margin than the person who crafts the finished goods, espeically when far more effort goes into the finished goods than goes into mining?
Even if resource prices were to increase by 300% or so, that increase if passed on credit for credit to the consumer (without a percentage multiplier) would be trivial in terms of the price of finished goods.
Profit can also be measured in percentages. 4000% profit for a simple mining operation, and only because you chose to spend 19 skill credits *once* is a bit steep. Er, greedy, actually.
As St. Gabriel consistently points out, a crafting utopia is created by more scarce resources. A large supply of "the best" resources devalues crafting.
But the elite crafters don't see it that way. And I wager that the successful elite crafters who have dominant positions in their servers' markets are over-represented on the crafting boards. Their monopolies and oligopolies might be threatened if the price of resources were to increase and they chose not to exercise their perogative to mine because perhaps they don't like that aspect of the game and prefer to buy resources.
There already *are* scarce resources. The best WS copper ever on my server. The best Irolunn Reactive Gas ever on my server. The best Phrik Aluminum on my server. Time plays a factor in rarity too, as does spawns overlapping each other.
Certification and a no-admin rule will help new crafters enter the game as low-cost providers of crafted goods. And I find that an environment that is welcoming to new players is healthy for the long-term survivability of a MMORPG or even just a MMOG.
Certification will inhibit new crafters from entering the game by limiting the volume they can produce because they can only afford to produce goods for which they can mine themselves. It will further hinder their entry into the crafting game because they will not be able to afford to buy from miners. But ultimately what it will do is force them to be miners instead of crafters, because that's where the money is.
But... if you bought the game to be a Weaponsmith or Shipwright, are you really gonna keep paying for it if you're forced to be a Miner instead?
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
Actually, it means the resource conglomerate that I buy from can mine sufficiently to keep the price of resources in the realm of comfort for me, and thus the price of my crafted wares in the realm of "good deal" for my customers.
Message Edited by HalasterTheBlack on 06-23-200412:51 PM
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HalasterTheBlack wrote:
joined42904 wrote:
I may be wrong about this...
But I suspect that the elite profession folks who oppose this change just want to keep down the price of resources. And some folks, including some I am sure who sincerely believe it, have scared these people into believing that resource Armageddon will occur if harv certs and no-admin are adopted.
The lower the price of resources, the higher the markup of an individual crafter.
Personally, I would prefer to buy resources at a fair price. Fair in this case being around 3cpu for a current spawn. If I can do that, I can sell my finished goods at a *very* competitive price. If I have to buy at 20 for a current spawn as you've suggested I should, I have to sell so high as to price myself out of the realm of what those who use my goods could afford. Or, I suppose, I could lower my profit margin to be significantly below that of the miner, but that's hardly fair considering his job is easier than mine and my job is closer to the consumer than his, both meaning I should have a better profit margin (in a reasonably realistic economy).
Without certs, the elite crafter can rent lots and have his or her combat friends place heavy harvesters on important spawns. This makes the life of the elite crafter easier.
Actually, it means the resource conglomerate that I buy from can mine sufficiently to keep the price of resources in the realm of comfort for me, and thus the price of my crafted wares in the realm of "good deal" for my customers.
Some elite crafters do not want to mine. Notice what some of the "miner" threads say. They have the temerity to ask why elite crafters should feel that they have to mine.
Sure, some don't want to mine. I don't mind mining so much. It's just that if all I could mine with was my artisan toon, I wouldn't be able to mine enough. It's not about feeling that I shouldn't have to. It's about the fact that I *can't*.
Would there be some kind of resource price increase if certs and no-admin were adopted? Certainly. Could the elite crafters pass this increase on (not as a percentage but as a flat increase) to their customers without too much increase in the price of goods if they were so inclined? Certainly. Would they want to do that? I don't know.
Why should miners make a significantlyhigher profit margin than the person who crafts the finished goods, espeically when far more effort goes into the finished goods than goes into mining?
Even if resource prices were to increase by 300% or so, that increase if passed on credit for credit to the consumer (without a percentage multiplier) would be trivial in terms of the price of finished goods.
Profit can also be measured in percentages. 4000% profit for a simple mining operation, and only because you chose to spend 19 skill credits *once* is a bit steep. Er, greedy, actually.
As St. Gabriel consistently points out, a crafting utopia is created by more scarce resources. A large supply of "the best" resources devalues crafting.
But the elite crafters don't see it that way. And I wager that the successful elite crafters who have dominant positions in their servers' markets are over-represented on the crafting boards. Their monopolies and oligopolies might be threatened if the price of resources were to increase and they chose not to exercise their perogative to mine because perhaps they don't like that aspect of the game and prefer to buy resources.
There already *are* scarce resources. The best WS copper ever on my server. The best Irolunn Reactive Gas ever on my server. The best Phrik Aluminum on my server. Time plays a factor in rarity too, as does spawns overlapping each other.
Certification and a no-admin rule will help new crafters enter the game as low-cost providers of crafted goods. And I find that an environment that is welcoming to new players is healthy for the long-term survivability of a MMORPG or even just a MMOG.
Certification will inhibit new crafters from entering the game by limiting the volume they can produce because they can only afford to produce goods for which they can mine themselves. It will further hinder their entry into the crafting game because they will not be able to afford to buy from miners. But ultimately what it will do is force them to be miners instead of crafters, because that's where the money is.
But... if you bought the game to be a Weaponsmith or Shipwright, are you really gonna keep paying for it if you're forced to be a Miner instead?
LOL I still haven't figured how to quote only part of a post. Or maybe that isn't possible so that things aren't taken out of context...I don't know.
I primarily want to address your lfinal contention regarding new crafters. If each crafter were limited to what that person could personally mine plus what they could pay a somewhat higher price for resources to produce...that would be good for the new crafter. Because an oligopoly of established crafters could not dominate the market. This would enable many people to have a lot of fun playing crafters. That would be good for the game. (I think St. Gabriel has said much of this already in another thread but it bears repeating.)
Buying large volumes from miners...mostly combat guys or folks with multiple accounts...is exactly what enables mass-production, economies of scale, and the formation of oligopolies in the first place. This is especially true if resources are relatively inexpensive and folks can meet even a large demand by operating large numbers of factories. People begin to go exclusively to the oligopoly crafters because they will be stocked and they are probably also the folks with the "magic items" that give increased experimentation points. No one wants to go to a vendor and not find the item they need there. Just being consistently stocked is worth something in terms of price right there.
Let's picture a changed market in which the oligopolies are no longer able to supply the server's demand. This is good for new crafters. Folks go and look at the guildhouse malls of cities...not terribly inconvenient...to see if someone has what they need. The new crafter's business is a success.
I buy all my WS items from one person. That person is always stocked with high quality goods and charges a reasonable price. I have no reason to shop around. I wager everyone else who learns about this person's vendor does likewise. That's good for me. It's good for this particular WS. But it's not good for someone trying to become a new WS in the SWG economy. It is oligopoly.
joined42904 wrote:
I may be wrong about this...
But I suspect that the elite profession folks who oppose this change just want to keep down the price of resources. And some folks, including some I am sure who sincerely believe it, have scared these people into believing that resource Armageddon will occur if harv certs and no-admin are adopted.
The lower the price of resources, the higher the markup of an individual crafter.
Without certs, the elite crafter can rent lots and have his or her combat friends place heavy harvesters on important spawns. This makes the life of the elite crafter easier.
Some elite crafters do not want to mine. Notice what some of the "miner" threads say. They have the temerity to ask why elite crafters should feel that they have to mine.
Would there be some kind of resource price increase if certs and no-admin were adopted? Certainly. Could the elite crafters pass this increase on (not as a percentage but as a flat increase) to their customers without too much increase in the price of goods if they were so inclined? Certainly. Would they want to do that? I don't know.
Even if resource prices were to increase by 300% or so, that increase if passed on credit for credit to the consumer (without a percentage multiplier) would be trivial in terms of the price of finished goods.
As St. Gabriel consistently points out, a crafting utopia is created by more scarce resources. A large supply of "the best" resources devalues crafting.
But the elite crafters don't see it that way. And I wager that the successful elite crafters who have dominant positions in their servers' markets are over-represented on the crafting boards. Their monopolies and oligopolies might be threatened if the price of resources were to increase and they chose not to exercise their perogative to mine because perhaps they don't like that aspect of the game and prefer to buy resources.
Certification and a no-admin rule will help new crafters enter the game as low-cost providers of crafted goods. And I find that an environment that is welcoming to new players is healthy for the long-term survivability of a MMORPG or even just a MMOG.
Ok I will bite and tell you why as an elite crafter I mine
1) Artisans are not the defacto miners of the galaxy, there is no mining profession.
2) Elite crafters are running businesses that must make a profit. Elite crafters have a lot of expenses to craft well
3) The quantity of high quality resource is not there
4) The price of high quality resource is too high.
All of which certs will not address. I have an exceptionally good vire at this since the "miners" just dont mine medical resources.
Also why should a huge percentage of the profits be allowed to a novice profession that basically has to do nothing.
Look all you do is survey and drop a extractor for 5 days or so and for that you want a lot of money,to where the elite crafter runs factories, makes schematics, coordinates resource types accross schematics, vends the item. Who does all the work here. Well surveying is a pain but thats about the toughest part.
A NOVICE profession should not get an automatic "I'm rich" button when the work required is very small.
Certification and no admin will hurt and not help new crafters. If the price of the base resource is too high how will it help the new crafter that can't afford it.
Personally on my server if I did not mine I could not compete.
The assumption of most miners is the cost of doing businessis soley that of mined resource, well it's not. There is high creature resource cost, power, factory maintenance, vendor maintenance, skill tapes etc.
Their monopolies and oligopolies might be threatened if the price of resources were to increase and they chose not to exercise their perogative to mine because perhaps they don't like that aspect of the game and prefer to buy resources.
On Valcyn the markets are quite competative. I see no monopiles. Just healthy competition.
Bugbait wrote:
Is this yourbest argument? It was a very flawed poll which we've discussed and concluded so why keep bring it up? There was a time when slavery and racial segregation was popular and supported by many as well. Does that make it right? What point are you actually trying to make with this anyway?
Scoooter wrote:
Yes there was a poll that got soundly defeated. Do a search.
Until THAT POLL, when someone raised a furor among the non-artisan community about this issue, the opposite was true.
I really don't know where you have been, but every time this has been proposed alal elite crafters have had a united front on this and that front is reflected in that poll. Because other than the medical profession all other elite crafters are artisans also. And many of the medical professions have alts that are MA's like me.
All the threads in the elite professions on this do show a resounding NO
He brought up the poll which was not proven to be flawed.
Of you would have read the posts he was saying that prior to that poll the elite professions and artisans wanted certs. I was pointing out to him that the elite crafing professiosn have always opposed them.
Why do you consider the poll invalid? There was noting invalid about it. No more than any other poll on these forums.