Artisan Archive
Thread: I am reading where folks want med and lg harvesters moved to higher skill levels or master
Your logic is flawed Garvin. Someone with a waypointcan use a harvester to it's full effect. People buy, sell, trade waypoints all the time. Every profession has thepotential to use a heavy harvester with maximum efficiecny. Without spending skill points in Commando (or other elite combat professions) it's impossible for someone to use a Flamethrower at maximum proficiency. That's key point being made here.
garvin wrote:
Ahhh...there you go...But not anyone can use a Harvestor to it's maximum effect...What does it take to find the good concentrations of a mineral? Wouldn't you say that having the highest concentration of a mineral is "using a harvester to it's maximum effect"? It requires having survey abilities to be able to find the higher concentration or hiring someone to do the surveying for you...So just like someone using an FT, if they aren't a Commando they won't be able to do as high of damage, just like, if I don't have any survey abilities, I won't be able to find as high a concentration...
Sinist wrote:
garvin wrote:
Again, I'm really enjoying this discussion...not taking anything personal and not trying to create any type of flaming...but I have a honest question...Why do folks in this Community feel that Harvestors do or should belong to Artisans? What makes them Artisan Property?
Make a character on Eclipse and come to me and ask you. Im pretty sure my title says "Miner" under my name. Thats reason enough for me to classify harvesters as really an Artisan skill then anyone else's.
Oh yeah, that makes all the sense in the world needed.
Only Artisans can use Harvestors.
Only Architects can use Houses/Factories/Furniture.
Only Weaponsmiths can use Weapons.
Only Armoursmiths canwear Armours.
Only Droid Engineers can use Droids.
Only Tailors can wear clothes.
Let's just cut out all the combat professions entirely, remove all the monsters, remove all the factions and themeparks, and all the Jedi and we can all play Star Wars Galaxies: Crafters Edition.
Lots of black and white arguing that completely ignores the middle ground. Common arguments being presented:
- Only Artisans should be allowed to harvest: I don't think anyone agrees with this nor are the supporters of certifications even arguing this point so I'm puzzled why people keep mentioning it. The argument being presented is certifications for medium and heavy harvesters. This means every profession can still utilise personal harvesters.
- Artisan is not an alite profession and shouldn't be treated like one: Fully agree. However, harvesting certifications aren't about making Artisan more useful or special, not in my books anyway. It's about adding a "skill cost" to efficient (mediums and heavies) harvesting. What's wrong with that? Every other profession requires skill point investment to reap the rewards of proficiency yet people think harvesting should be free?
- Resource prices will go up: Maybe, but look at vehicles. If heavy harvesters were the exclusive property of Master Artisans, using vehicles as a guide it may not be all doom and gloom. Artisans on a lot of servers have slit their own thorats when it comes to vehicle pricing. If only Survey 4 is required for medium harvester use what impact would it have? Hard to say but note that most crafters already have Survey 4 if they aren't also Master Artisans. Even if the prices do rise what's the big deal? Weaponsmiths and Armoursmiths turn 3-5cpu resources into 25cpu+ (that's consevative, it's more like 35cpu+)items. Is it so bad if resources rise to 10cpu?
- But what about my poor Commando or Bounty Hunter that has no points to spare? Simple, use personal harvesters. But I want heavies! Yes, my crafter would like a rocket launcher, hell even my Rifleman would like a rocket launcher but back to reality and something called "balance". Proficiency in crafting or combat should cost skill points. That's the core of the certification argument. Remember when anyone could use a Republic Blaster? Raise your hand if you serisouly think that was blaanced.
Flamethrowers, missile launchers, stun batons, whatever, you may pick your own weapons to compare harvestors too. These are all requiring an elite class. I posted on the other thread without knowing this one was here. However, just add in a few thoughts after reading this thread. Having certifications is a bad idea in my opinion. If you guys require it to be so, fine. I understand that you want to be able to control the market economy of the game with a novice class. As far as power moves go this one is brillant honestly. If I called for this kinda thing with enhancements (ie docs get enhancement ability at Master) they'd cut my head off in the doc forum. However, for anybody who thinks this won't cause a drastic shift in economies you need to realize that this will effectively double prices or more (server dependant of course, it'd be funny to see everybody paying what bloodfin and a couple of other servers are at right now). There is not way that you can argue that giving the majority of a commodity to a small group of people will not drive the price up by two fold. If you get this certification you'd better be prepared for the consequences of your actions and have the wallet to live through it as well.I'd be willing to go to personal harvestors (I'd hate gving up all of mycurrent fleet, but as they are merely being used to save up for when I go shipwright I guess I can't complain) I can make a living off that, barely. Well goodluck either way it turns out.
IlychUlyanov wrote:
Flamethrowers, missile launchers, stun batons, whatever, you may pick your own weapons to compare harvestors too. These are all requiring an elite class. I posted on the other thread without knowing this one was here. However, just add in a few thoughts after reading this thread. Having certifications is a bad idea in my opinion. If you guys require it to be so, fine. I understand that you want to be able to control the market economy of the game with a novice class. As far as power moves go this one is brillant honestly. If I called for this kinda thing with enhancements (ie docs get enhancement ability at Master) they'd cut my head off in the doc forum. However, for anybody who thinks this won't cause a drastic shift in economies you need to realize that this will effectively double prices or more (server dependant of course, it'd be funny to see everybody paying what bloodfin and a couple of other servers are at right now). There is not way that you can argue that giving the majority of a commodity to a small group of people will not drive the price up by two fold. If you get this certification you'd better be prepared for the consequences of your actions and have the wallet to live through it as well.I'd be willing to go to personal harvestors (I'd hate gving up all of mycurrent fleet, but as they are merely being used to save up for when I go shipwright I guess I can't complain) I can make a living off that, barely. Well goodluck either way it turns out.
You sir also have a proven IQ score of below 50.
IlychUlyanov wrote:
Flamethrowers, missile launchers, stun batons, whatever, you may pick your own weapons to compare harvestors too. These are all requiring an elite class. I posted on the other thread without knowing this one was here. However, just add in a few thoughts after reading this thread. Having certifications is a bad idea in my opinion. If you guys require it to be so, fine. I understand that you want to be able to control the market economy of the game with a novice class. As far as power moves go this one is brillant honestly. If I called for this kinda thing with enhancements (ie docs get enhancement ability at Master) they'd cut my head off in the doc forum. However, for anybody who thinks this won't cause a drastic shift in economies you need to realize that this will effectively double prices or more (server dependant of course, it'd be funny to see everybody paying what bloodfin and a couple of other servers are at right now). There is not way that you can argue that giving the majority of a commodity to a small group of people will not drive the price up by two fold. If you get this certification you'd better be prepared for the consequences of your actions and have the wallet to live through it as well.I'd be willing to go to personal harvestors (I'd hate gving up all of mycurrent fleet, but as they are merely being used to save up for when I go shipwright I guess I can't complain) I can make a living off that, barely. Well goodluck either way it turns out.
There are 3 grades of harvesters. I repeat, three. People being naturally self absorbed seem to miss this point. Which other basic or elite profession allows you to use both the best and worst of a type of an item at the same level? None. Entertainers get better equipment and certifications as they advance. Medics move from Stim A's to Stim C's (maybe Stim D's if Med Use is experimented I think). Scouts get new traps, better camps, greater animal harvesting ability. Marksman getting better guns. Brawlers get better weapons. However everyone should get heavy harvesters without any skill points invested in Artisan? Yes, I've said all this before. This isn't about making Artisans special. It's about bringing their skill "costs" in line with every other basic profession. If Iwant tokillmore effectively I need to spend skill points inBrawler and/or Marksman. However, I can still kill without any skills. This is the same with harvesting.Personals for allwith mediums and heavies atthe cost of skill points. Elite professions aren't even relevant really.
In regards to your Doctor reference, that actually supports the need for certifications. Doctors get Enhance A's through to D's. A Novice Doctor can't use Enhance D's but you think everyone should be able to use heavy harvesters which are are equivalent?
Do I think resource prices would rise? Yes, but it will stabilise in the long term. Note the emphasis on long term. In the short term it will likelyspike like every other major charge (FWG's, Scatter Pistols, and Launcher Pistolsspring to mind). As it is there is an excess of money in the galaxy. Credits are "created" by killing mobiles and doing missions. They don't come from anywhere else (duping issue aside). This means the cost of earning credits is lower than the return, by a fair amount. If it wasn't people wouldn't hunt, etc. so this is a good thing. Would it hurt if prices of goods went up? Inflation anyone? It's bound to happen in any economy where there is profit for all parties.
Bugbait wrote:
There are 3 grades of harvesters. I repeat, three. People being naturally self absorbed seem to miss this point. Which other basic or elite profession allows you to use both the best and worst of a type of an item at the same level? None. Entertainers get better equipment and certifications as they advance. Medics move from Stim A's to Stim C's (maybe Stim D's if Med Use is experimented I think). Scouts get new traps, better camps, greater animal harvesting ability. Marksman getting better guns. Brawlers get better weapons. However everyone should get heavy harvesters without any skill points invested in Artisan?
I'm sorry Bugbait, do you care to remind me where the hell Artisan was given dibs on Harvesters? Medics, entertainers, scouts, and marksmen all get upgraded equipment that was given to them via their skill boxes.
No where has Artisan EVER been given harvesters as a tool. Artisans get survey... and you might want to take note that as you increase your skills in survey so go up your ability to use the survey device. To make the leap of being able to survey for minerals to having some sort of God given right to have a monopoly over them is just flawed thinking sprinkled with GREED.
Yes, I've said all this before. This isn't about making Artisans special. It's about bringing their skill "costs" in line with every other basic profession. If Iwant tokillmore effectively I need to spend skill points inBrawler and/or Marksman. However, I can still kill without any skills. This is the same with harvesting.Personals for allwith mediums and heavies atthe cost of skill points. Elite professions aren't even relevant really.
Again, you are making the same illogical and greedy leap just like several other (not all) of the proponents of this idea... Because you have one tree, in your BASIC profession, that deals with harvesters all of a sudden this idea pops into your head that this somehow means that Artisans and Artisans alone should be able to use the only big money makers:
Heavies and Meds
How lovely for you guys
No other basic profession comes CLOSE to having the type of power Artisans would have if the DEVs did indeed stupidly give into this outlandish idea.
In regards to your Doctor reference, that actually supports the need for certifications. Doctors get Enhance A's through to D's. A Novice Doctor can't use Enhance D's but you think everyone should be able to use heavy harvesters which are are equivalent?
Again, your argument is 100% invalid by virtue that Artisans were never intended to be the proprietors of the harvester industry. There was an Elite class, miners, that the DEVs toyed around with and threw out.
Do I think resource prices would rise? Yes, but it will stabilise in the long term. Note the emphasis on long term. In the short term it will likelyspike like every other major charge (FWG's, Scatter Pistols, and Launcher Pistolsspring to mind). As it is there is an excess of money in the galaxy. Credits are "created" by killing mobiles and doing missions. They don't come from anywhere else (duping issue aside). This means the cost of earning credits is lower than the return, by a fair amount. If it wasn't people wouldn't hunt, etc. so this is a good thing. Would it hurt if prices of goods went up? Inflation anyone? It's bound to happen in any economy where there is profit for all parties.
The way the market is right now resources of all types are OVER inflated... That is in despite of the fact any one can use a heavy.
Artisans already get more love then any other basic profession. They craft all kind of useful items from power-ups to vehicles to DE components to god knows what in the space x-pac.
Just so you know my alt is a master Artisan and he by far has more versatility then my Master Bio-Engineer and soon to be Master ArmorSmith.... And it is only a basic profession!!!
There are a lot of other professions that could use 1/2 of the love artisans have... Yet some of you just arent going to be happy until your meager sp investment in a basic profession is landing you several million a day.
Shame on all of you who think a Artisan should have this ability.
I hate using words like, "stupid" and "idiotic" in a argument but this is, by definition, aSTUPID and IDIOTIC idea.
Every argument for cert in the artisan tree has been shot down over and over in this thread. Every person who has been arguing for this has been 1 starred to death. Some of you need to get a clue.
If any profession gets dibs on harvesters cert it needs to be an ELITE one. Though I would even be against that.
Bottom line is:
Even with EVERYONE using harvesters prices on inorganic resources of all kinds are boarder-line crazy. The last thing this game needs is for prices to go any higher then they already are!!!
I'm sick and tired of everything that is worth anything in this game coming attached with a 1million or more price tag.
SHAME on you! SHAME.
Message Edited by SomeUser on 05-19-2004 01:27 AM
Vezek Yes I did misinterpet the scout harvesting isssue. But as I understand it now, you are saying the scout has limited sales to others not in their respective field. But neither does the commando who makes grenades or the smuggler who makes slicing tools. But then they are not supposed to. Scout is a stepping stone to Combat class. Artisan is a stepping stone to "Crafting" classes.And that isthe difference. Yes, Scout harvested resources are hard to come by. But they do it as they climb and progress their "Combat" skill.If the combatant has not INVESTED SKILL POINTS in scout, he wont be gathering the creatures' resources.
My main reason for comparing artisan to scout is they are both stepping stone to other professions. and require a skill point useage.
So my point isif they make it so only certain people can harvest resources.... then demand increases + supply decreases, which leads to the greedy people charging ridiculous prices...
GrafvonSoden wrote:
Yes I did misinterpet the scout harvesting isssue. But as I understand it now, you are saying the scout has limited sales to others not in their respective field. But neither does the commando who makes grenades or the smuggler who makes slicing tools. But then they are not supposed to. Scout is a stepping stone to Combat class. Artisan is a stepping stone to "Crafting" classes.And that isthe difference. Yes, Scout harvested resources are hard to come by. But they do it as they climb and progress their "Combat" skill.If the combatant has not INVESTED SKILL POINTS in scout, he wont be gathering the creatures' resources.
My main reason for comparing artisan to scout is they are both stepping stone to other professions. and require a skill point useage.
Commandos USE to make their own grenades...Commandos have no crafting ability anymore (since beta basically)...
And no matter how high scouts climb (even to master Ranger) they still have one thing that Artisan's beat them on when it comes to Harvesting...Artisans can drop Harvestors and go about doing other things...then come back and collect what was Harvested...Scouts and those professions stemming from Scouting, must actively kill the targets before they can harvest as the previous post referenced...it's much more labor intensive...
This is why they get their Cert exclusively...with anything good come penalties that others don't often see...some folks point at the Damage numbers that Commandos do and say they want the same, but are blind to see our penalties and restrictions...Scouts get exclusive rights to harvesting creatures because of their penalties and restrictions...
If Artisans got cert'd for harvestors, what do you suggest in the way of Penalties/Restrictions that should be place on Artisans in the same fashion that Scouts have? What if we increased the output of Survey Devices and take away all Harvestors from the game, making the only way to gain resouces via Survey Devices...then Artisans couldn't do other things while harvesting...Beyond that, take away the ability to AFK survey...make it an active process...and beyond even that...make it so that anything crafting within the Artisan skill trees are only usable by Artisans or professions stemming off of Artisans...with all that you start to get things in the same boat as Scouts...
This is why you can't use Scout Harvesting in the Same Arguments asMineral Harvestors...they aren't the same thing....