Artisan Archive

I honestly see an entry level profession (artisan) wanting the prestige of an elite profession. I do not see any other entry level profession or even elite professionwith even a remote possibility of monopolizing a galaxies economy as Harvester certs would give to the Artisans.

needless to say im a miner, but the cold hard fact is that 10 lots per account per server has been the original intent by sony from day 1. also from day 1, everyone had 10 lots to use as they wish, houses, factories, harvestors, which to this day is still a good intention. I dont see how taking that away from a player by requiring them to perhaps have to give up a skill they have worked so hard to get in order to get a master artisan is going to improve the game. this would certainly hurt the player who has a non money making profession or skill and relies on those few harvestors to make money in the game. i like the idea of 10 harvestors per account, this would certainly eliminate the cross server harvestor advantage that some people have. the next question is on how to address the ppl who are loaning or renting their lots to other people. i dont see a way that can be stopped but it can be made more difficult by eliminating admin rights altogether including hopper rights. a lot of people would be discouraged from loaning or renting their lots if only the owner of the harvestor had to pick up the resources as well as put in power and maintenance. i think sony certainly is responsible for the mass flood of resources in the economy today and the low prices of these resources. increasing ber rates on harvetors is one of the major reasons we are where we are today in the resource market. a lot of ppl myself included own high ber fusion harvestors and the highest ber harvestors in the other categories. having a decay rate on factories and harvestors to the point where they eventually have to be replaced would certainly be one solution to the problem. also reduce the ber to rates that in the future will not get us into this resource jam that we r in now. having started as a master architect, i know the pain they feel, this would help them to perhaps become a better money making profession and kinda balance things out for them. by that i mean they make the harvestors and miners like myself profit heavily from them and they barely break even making them. lets face it miners, its not like we cant afford to buy new harvestors every so often, but in reality if something does not change to reduce the amount of resources in the game, no one is gonna make any credits. i've made a very fine living in the game from mining, just trying to get things back on track. i know this may offend some of you who are miners, but hey, its all gonna go down the crapper if something doesnt change. feel free to flame!

Why does everyone think the artisans will automatically change into some greed monster ? I've seen more greed comming from those selling "Uber Loots" than crafters raising resource prices.

And you cant blame the Avian meat price on artisans.

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GrafvonSoden wrote:

Why does everyone think the artisans will automatically change into some greed monster ? I've seen more greed comming from those selling "Uber Loots" than crafters raising resource prices.

And you cant blame the Avian meat price on artisans.

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The problem is generalizing...It's like saying that every AS is greedy...that's not true, but is also wrong to say that there isn't a few Armorsmiths on a few servers who are greedy...You can't say that All Artisans will be greedy, but on the same note, you can't say that no Artisan will be greedy...it's the Exceptions that Make The Rule...

By creating a profitable market others will come calling...Theshark may not be currently present, but it will come when the blood hit hits the water...

It's like anything in game that makes money....If resources become an easy way for an Artisan to make lots of money, there will be some Artisans that will take advantage of the situation...not all...but some...Think about it...why do people sell one item for 10 c/u and other for 2 c/u....the same amount of effort and cost went into harvesting the same amount...the price comes from availability, quality and the sellers own greed level...their greed level may be low and so they sell it cheaper then some, but their greed level may be high and they go out to make as much money as they can...Which way do you think the majority will lean...

Can you promise that if Artisans get the cert for Harvestors that resource costs won't go up?Or if resource costs do go up, Artisanswon't raise their prices to match?

Message Edited by garvin on 05-18-2004 12:43 PM

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garvin wrote:

[snip]

It's a given fact that if there are less resouces out there then resource prices will go up...this means the average Artisans costs will go up...How do you expect them to be able to lower their prices (competatively) while their costs go up? Competition isn't the only factor that dictates prices...there is profit margin as well...if your cost is higher then your resale, then you are losting money...how many Artisans will stay in business if they are constantly losing money? You aren't hurting just the big Crafters or the new Crafters, but everyone equally...prices on things will go up, profits will go down...

As an artisan, have you ever made a profit on anything you've sold? What did you do with that profit exactly? Now would the outcome have been the same if the profit was significantly less? By being less, what woudl that have done to the other events impacted by your profit amount? Profits will go down as costs go up...it's that simple...that's how Artisans will be most hurt...Competition won't matter because everyone will be forced to keep prices higher then costs...and those prices will be higher then Combat Professions can pay at the current rate they are spending (so sales will slow down until Combat Professions can fill that income void now left by losing harvesting abilities)...it's one big circle....

Message Edited by garvin on 05-18-2004 11:56 AM

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I have a number of points to make here -

1. If harvesters are to be given certifications then all the professions that require resources should be given the certs, not just artisan. So a novice BE, a novice Doctor etc can all use any type of harvestor, novice medic &novice artisan can get certs for mediums and anyone can use personals.
   
   If you are playing a profession instead of grinding it (learning about all the items you can make at each skill box, discovering what you need to make them, learning the profession inside and out to truly be a master of it) then your sole aim isn't to reach master as quickly as possible and all other 17 boxes of a profession have a value other than being a stepping stone to master.
   


2. Stop cross server lots swapping, its bad for the economy as a whole (see below), certing harvestors won't do this, but it will help. Maybe a limit on the number of harvesters / factories you can be given admin on, or only owners can operate harvestors / factories.
   


3. To those people who say well if you stop all my guildmates supplying letting me use their lots / remove my 30 lots swapped from other servers i won't be able to get enough resources to produce everything my guild needs / people will buy from me, nor will i be able to run enough factories to produce a loads of items a day.
   
   If you can't produce everything then i say great, it means that some of the other crafters who are currently having a hard time of business because all your guild mates get stuff from you, or you have so many items in stock no-one ever seeks out a lesser known crafter.
   
   I know there are people out there who struggle to get a good turn over of business because they are not one of the established big names in their respective field, even though they produce good products. If the top names could only supply a fifth of their current market then four crafters who are struggling at the moment would get a chance to make a good go of it.
   
   The richest people would still go to those who make the absolute best and all the other crafters making good, but not the very best would have a whole new market opened up to them.
   
   The 10 lots each was put in to stop any one crafter being able to produce so much stuff that they could stop other new crafters from having a chance.
   


4. And a final point, anyone should be able to use factories, they are there to mass produce things you can already make... If you can't make a schematic they are useless to you anyway.

Give me break. If you're ONLY a master artisan and not a specialized crafter, I've got to ask WHY? It's a worthless, stepping-stone profession.

The entire discussion of making Master Artisan - or heck anything Artisan - more worthwhile should be a non-issue.

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Bugbait wrote:

Your logic is flawed Garvin. Someone with a waypointcan use a harvester to it's full effect. People buy, sell, trade waypoints all the time. Every profession has thepotential to use a heavy harvester with maximum efficiecny. Without spending skill points in Commando (or other elite combat professions) it's impossible for someone to use a Flamethrower at maximum proficiency. That's key point being made here.

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Only the artisan can pinpoint the best site for a resource, and he nearly always has the first crack at the most prime location. Everyone else gets sloppy seconds around the highest concentration that the artisan has identified.

My master doc/master CM can park a harvester near that prime site, but usually he's getting a less than optimal yield with his heavy harvesters. In fact, one of the reasons he's in the harvester game is to support the PA's master artisans with more lots and more harvesters, so they can get even more of those nice resources, in exchange for their services assurveyorsfor resources he needs for his own crafting pursuits that he is unable to do himself.

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SomeUser wrote:

I'm sorry Bugbait, do you care to remind me where the hell Artisan was given dibs on Harvesters? Medics, entertainers, scouts, and marksmen all get upgraded equipment that was given to them via their skill boxes.

No where has Artisan EVER been given harvesters as a tool. Artisans get survey... and you might want to take note that as you increase your skills in survey so go up your ability to use the survey device. To make the leap of being able to survey for minerals to having some sort of God given right to have a monopoly over them is just flawed thinking sprinkled with GREED.

Again, you are making the same illogical and greedy leap just like several other (not all) of the proponents of this idea... Because you have one tree, in your BASIC profession, that deals with harvesters all of a sudden this idea pops into your head that this somehow means that Artisans and Artisans alone should be able to use the only big money makers:

Heavies and Meds

How lovely for you guys

No other basic profession comes CLOSE to having the type of power Artisans would have if the DEVs did indeed stupidly give into this outlandish idea.

Again, your argument is 100% invalid by virtue that Artisans were never intended to be the proprietors of the harvester industry. There was an Elite class, miners, that the DEVs toyed around with and threw out.

The way the market is right now resources of all types are OVER inflated... That is in despite of the fact any one can use a heavy.

Artisans already get more love then any other basic profession. They craft all kind of useful items from power-ups to vehicles to DE components to god knows what in the space x-pac.

Just so you know my alt is a master Artisan and he by far has more versatility then my Master Bio-Engineer and soon to be Master ArmorSmith.... And it is only a basic profession!!!

There are a lot of other professions that could use 1/2 of the love artisans have... Yet some of you just arent going to be happy until your meager sp investment in a basic profession is landing you several million a day.

Shame on all of you who think a Artisan should have this ability.

I hate using words like, "stupid" and "idiotic" in a argument but this is, by definition, aSTUPID and IDIOTIC idea.

Every argument for cert in the artisan tree has been shot down over and over in this thread. Every person who has been arguing for this has been 1 starred to death. Some of you need to get a clue.

If any profession gets dibs on harvesters cert it needs to be an ELITE one. Though I would even be against that.

Bottom line is:

Even with EVERYONE using harvesters prices on inorganic resources of all kinds are boarder-line crazy. The last thing this game needs is for prices to go any higher then they already are!!!

I'm sick and tired of everything that is worth anything in this game coming attached with a 1million or more price tag.

SHAME on you! SHAME.

Message Edited by SomeUser on 05-19-2004 01:27 AM

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SioBabble wrote:

This does not make sense.

A CM must master medic AND have trained the entireranged support line of marksman before she can train novice CM.

Why should she wait until the master box to get a heavy harv, when the doc, who has invested fewer SP to get novice, gets the heavy harv at novice? It is easier to qualify for novice doctor than it is to qualify for novice combat medic.

A BE must have the hunting line in scout and the organic chemistry line in medic before she can train novice. Why must the BE wait until master?

It would be nice if the harvester nerf criers (and that IS what we are talking about here, a nerf of every profession but artisan) would get their logic straight and know something about theother professions they are mucking with first.

Message Edited by SioBabble on 05-19-2004 12:19 PM

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like i said its the concept here. and i agree with your assesment. CM should get heavies at Novice. since i am not in one in game and i was at work on a break when i wrote this i did not have the full skill tree's in front of me. Would it be fair to say then:

If the crafting profession required you to MASTER another. then you would get the heavies at Novice.. But in the case of Architect i dont have to master Artisan. I can skip and only train one columb and aquire Novice architect quickly if i target my training to that one columb. hence whay i feel those shouldbe at a HIGHER level. I used Novice and master to break this down. but its the Concept i am trying to get across.

--Axler

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Aeron-Blackthorn wrote:

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Amazing I'm agreeing with Garvin all over the place!

There is NO difference. I have personally hired plenty of Commandos and Hunters to do my dirty work.

Fivo Asia

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Heh My crafter hires a local commando to accompany him when he does harvesters and surveying on high level planets.

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Hey then tell me Can your Master crafter use the comando's BEST gun with no penelties?

Well. he CAN use your crafters harvestors with none.

Give me the ability to use the commando's guns with no penelties and i will NOT hire the commando ever again. becuase he would be useless to me in my efforts.

--Axler

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AxlerTwinblade wrote:

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Aeron-Blackthorn wrote:

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Amazing I'm agreeing with Garvin all over the place!

There is NO difference. I have personally hired plenty of Commandos and Hunters to do my dirty work.

Fivo Asia

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Heh My crafter hires a local commando to accompany him when he does harvesters and surveying on high level planets.

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Hey then tell me Can your Master crafter use the comando's BEST gun with no penelties?

Well. he CAN use your crafters harvestors with none.

Give me the ability to use the commando's guns with no penelties and i will NOT hire the commando ever again. becuase he would be useless to me in my efforts.

--Axler

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Well weapons do require specific training. Keep in mind these are AUTQOMATED harvesters

Well lets use your logic on everything then

Which means.

Armor smiths can only use Armor

Only architects canuse houses

Only Master Artisans can use vehicles

Read my above post. Having the ability to make harvesters and the ability to FIND resource soes not make the artisan professions the miners of the galaxy. That means you can craft a harvester and find resouce. NOT be the one that can soley mine it.

Look at all the threads pertaining to this and answer all the issues pertaining to the economy and player game experience.