Artisan Archive
Thread: I am reading where folks want med and lg harvesters moved to higher skill levels or master
Srednii
Tue May 18, 2004 3:59 pm
#79
Sinist wrote:
Also I think you have the idea wrong. We arent saying Artisans will be the only miners just the best. Most of the people think that personals and stuff still shoudl be widely used by everyone but medium and heavies and stuff certified.
Artisan is a base starting proffession. It shouldn't be the best at anything.It shouldn't be the only starting proff able to rape the community by having a monopoly on resources. None of the other starting proffs are big money makers, why do you seem to expect Artisan should be so?
cairnsb
Tue May 18, 2004 4:50 pm
#80
I don't agree at all.
See it is like this:
I have no artisan and run harvesters - is that wrong?
NO
Why?
Because I have no survey skills and have to pay an artisan to find the high spot for me -and I pay them well.
So saying we need a cert is just dumb.
Ok - I know artisans are saying "we need the cert so people will buy the resources from us".
Well the ONLY people REALLY buying that much resources are the eilte crafting professions (arch, WS, AS, Taylor, Chef, BE, and Doc) and seeing that it only takes 6 to 8 hours to master artisan - why bother?
I mean if I was a master weaponsmith and was given the option of buying crappy resources (marked up about 200%) from a artisan or harvesting them myself (ie requiring me to master artisan) I would OBVIOUSLY master artisan and tell the guy trying to sell me resources to go get stuffed.
Another thing to look at...
MOST artisans (pure newbs) have NO CLUE what are good resources and what are needed by the elite crafting professions - all they DO know is they put fiberplast on the bazzar and it sells. And i swear if I get another tell from an artisan that wants to sell me 10 units of iron for 3k I will scream.
I am a master doc incase you are wondering - finding resources of good quality is VERY hard to do.
Now if you tell me (and other docs) we lose the ability to place harvesters and have to hire an artisan (which we may or may not trust) then you had better belive that I will master artisan to cut out the middle man, havest it myself and jack the cost of buffs up by about 3k for my troubles (and in turn drop artisan when I am done harvesting).
I know this sounds very one sided and not very cheerful - but that's my point.
I can promise you that IF they make it a certification that ALL Artisans are not going to make a dime - because EVERYONE that needs resources will get the cert so they don't have to deal with the headache.
Because if you have 8 hours to spare, you too can master artisan...so why bother dealing with some guy that THINKS he has a good resource (cause a friend of a friend of his read the forums) - when I can go out and get the good stuff myself for a fraction of the cost?
EdOWar
Tue May 18, 2004 4:58 pm
#81
Just a point I haven't seen addressed regarding harvestor certs: who ever said that Artisans were entitled to be the only profession to place a harvestor? Sure, Artisans have the survey line, and that allows you to hand sample and look for resource concentrations.Noother professioncan do that. Likewise, Artisans can make batteries, basic weapons and armor, basic clothing, basic foods, general equipment, even vehicles. Scouts/Medics/Entertainers/Marksman/Brawlers can't do that either. But everyone, including Artisans, can place harvestors. Of course, because Artisans can survey they get the biggest benefit from using harvestors. However, nowhereis it written, or even suggested, that Artisans get to be the sole benefactors of harvestors.
As for the supposed resource glut, there's a solution for that: it's called Capitalism. When the prices of resources become low enough, some people are going to conclude that the hassle of running harvestors isn't worth the payout, and they will find something more fun/profitable to do. As the supply of resources declines, prices will start torise. Eventually an equilibrium pointwill be reached. SWG's economy is less than a year old, so we probably haven't reach an equilibrium point yet (if the global economy were only one year old, it too would seem as screwy as SWG's economy).
Artisan is a basic profession and isn't supposed to be a way to earn millions. You don't see Master Brawlers and Master Marksmen (with no other combat skills) clearing out the Geo caves for phat lewt, or doing missions on Dath for huge payouts. They need to master an elite combat profession to do that. Likewise, Artisans need to master an elite crafting profession to make big bucks. Weaponsmith and Armorsmith are the obvious firstchoices, but Chef does well since the revamp, and Tailors I imagine are doing well with BE clothing and the new crafter aprons and such. Don't know about DE's though, even with the droid revamp 
.
Another complaint is that guilds somehow gain an advantage by using numerous people to plant harvestors. Frankly, I don't see how this is so. The only advantage they gain is that they can stockpile more of a resource. But ultimately they pay the same cpu as anyone else to extract those resources out of the ground. The only determining factor is the % concentration for the resource, and you don't have to be in a guild to place harvestors on a 90% spot. It doesn't matter whether you run 10 harvestors or 100 harvestors, the cpu for harvestingis basically the same--there areessentially noeconomies of scale in SWG.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
Giamai
Tue May 18, 2004 5:14 pm
#82
i'll just reiterate mythoughts on this..and point out an idea i saw on another forum (which may or may not be here somewhere)
why (so far, at least) i'm still a "no" vote on harvester certifications -
several other professions require resources and it is significantly cheaper to harvest them themselves as opposed to buying them. it is their right to make that choice and i would not wish to handicap the BE's out there or my smuggler character. There simply aren't enough skillpoints for these types of characters to be effective in combat and pick up artisan.
comparing harvesting off animals vs using a harvester: certainly takes some skill to skin a gnort (hence the need for novice scout) but it is the harvester that does the extracting and an artisan to survey for resources. you eliminate a source of income for early artisans since i am sometimes paid just for sending out waypoints but at the same time irl i can certainly run machinery, i don't necessarily have to know how to make them.
the resource glut, if there is one, is at least partially driven by hologrinding which is subject to end very soon. the "fix" here will need "refixing" within a few months, if this is the case.
lot usage..(not counting cross server lot trades, which borders on being an exploit)..there are professions from within guilds that require people to use up most of their lots to hold guild buildings. in addition, many guilds ask that combat profs give up lots to hold public factories or storage buildings..my characters are holding guild structure factories for example. the entire concept of the game is interdependence among characters and this type of lot sharing fits into that concept well but limits crafters.For example,a guild hall takes up 9 lots by itself so in my old guild even though the guild leader was an architect he was not the guild leader of record..there was no way he could be an archy and give up 9 lots to the PA hall. Lot sharing is the best way around this limitation.
so as a compromise of sorts i've seen it suggested that master artisans be given a modification of sorts to the extraction rate of harvesters..a large enough one to make the effort of being master artisan worthy of the bonuses (besides vehicles). done correctly it would shift the resources some to the artisans without dramatically killing off everybody else.
any thoughts?
GrafvonSoden
Tue May 18, 2004 5:20 pm
#83
I don't agree at all.
See it is like this:
I have no artisan and run harvesters - is that wrong?
Why?
Because I have no survey skills and have to pay an artisan to find the high spot for me -and I pay them well.
this is exactly why
So saying we need a cert is just dumb. this is your opinion.
Ok - I know artisans are saying "we need the cert so people will buy the resources from us".
No - we are saying if you want to harvest resources, spend the skill points like we did
Well the ONLY people REALLY buying that much resources are the eilte crafting professions (arch, WS, AS, Taylor, Chef, BE, and Doc) and seeing that it only takes 6 to 8 hours to master artisan - why bother?
unlike mastering scout right sigh
I mean if I was a master weaponsmith and was given the option of buying crappy resources (marked up about 200%) from a artisan or harvesting them myself (ie requiring me to master artisan) I would OBVIOUSLY master artisan and tell the guy trying to sell me resources to go get stuffed.
Then please do - but spend the Skill Points !
Another thing to look at...
MOST artisans (pure newbs) have NO CLUE what are good resources and what are needed by the elite crafting professions - all they DO know is they put fiberplast on the bazzar and it sells. And i swear if I get another tell from an artisan that wants to sell me 10 units of iron for 3k I will scream.
Please stop and think before you make another foolish statement like this
I am a master doc incase you are wondering I figured you'd get around to enlightening us low people to your exalted profession.- finding resources of good quality is VERY hard to do.
Now if you tell me (and other docs) we lose the ability to place harvesters and have to hire an artisan (which we may or may not trust) then you had better belive that I will master artisan to cut out the middle man, havest it myself and jack the cost of buffs up by about 3k for my troubles (and in turn drop artisan when I am done harvesting).
I know this sounds very one sided and not very cheerful - but that's my point.
And that is exactly my point. You just proved if you can have it all , then to he11 with everyone else. But I serously doubt you would, you might have to give up some of your exalted uber skills.
I can promise you that IF they make it a certification that ALL Artisans are not going to make a dime - because EVERYONE that needs resources will get the cert so they don't have to deal with the headache.
I hope so - but do you really think the "Uber Templets" will do this ?
Because if you have 8 hours to spare, you too can master artisan...so why bother dealing with some guy that THINKS he has a good resource (cause a friend of a friend of his read the forums) - when I can go out and get the good stuff myself for a fraction of the cost?
I'll bet you I know just as many good resources as you do if not more. And your fraction of the cost will include SKILL POINTS too right , I dont think so
GrafvonSoden
Tue May 18, 2004 5:56 pm
#84
Ahhh...there you go...But not anyone can use a Harvestor to it's maximum effect...What does it take to find the good concentrations of a mineral?Wouldn't you say that having the highest concentration of a mineral is "using a harvester to it's maximum effect"?It requires having survey abilities to be able to find the higher concentration or hiring someone to do the surveying for you...So just like someone using an FT, if they aren't a Commando they won't be able to do as high of damage, just like, if I don't have any survey abilities, I won't be able to find as high a concentration...
but unlike a flame thrower all you need is for someone to give you a waypoint. then plop it down, and you are usuing it at as maximum as anyone can. So no, you dont need survey to use a harvester to its max. Not all people with survey 4 can use a harvester atmax according to your definition. Because usually someone that gets on right after morning server starts, sends all his guildies and friends that have no artisan/survey skill, the sweet spots for the best resources. So of course when a surveyor does get the waypoint from surveying, he has to settle for much less percentage of the resource, because the area is flooded with harvester put there by non-surveyors and people who not invested any skill points to do so. And actually all you need to do is look to where everyone has placed harvesters and plopyours there too. And also, you can tell me all day long how to use the FT, but it will do me no good nor will I get better with it. I will need to spend SKILL POINTS to improve in its use.Unlike getting a tell about resources locations.
So why do Artisan's feel the Harvestors should be their property? Again, not trying to create anytype of flame war...just asking a question...Is it mainly just for an economic reason? If so, could this economic reason be fixed via another route? Is it to stop or slow down Cross Server Lot Swaps? I've heard tons of better ideas on stopping lot swaps that would work much better....So what is it exactly?
The Devs decided not to implement miner for what ever reason. But it was to come from the artisan line, hence the surveyor tree. I see harvesting as the elite way to sample. Only artisans can sample. And sampling improves the higher in survey tree you go, which is where miner would have been accessed from. So instead of implementing miner, they took the easy way out and let everyone control harvesters. And just because it was this way at the start, doesnt mean that is how it was meant to be or what is good for the game now. I use stat migration as an example of this. Something that we all could do at one time since the beginning, but only IDers can do now.
Alot of the elite crafters that took one tree of the artisan profession dont like this either, but because they also want to use their skill points elswhere. If you dont master artisan, you can master several elites (crafting or combat). But I'm really only advocating putting heavies and mediums in the survey line. After all, personal wouldnt be personals if they were restricted.
I am not taking any of this personally. If this doesnt come to fruition, then I'll deal with it. But I feel the need to speak up on something I feel is implemeted in a misdirected effort.
Vezek
Unstable1
Tue May 18, 2004 6:34 pm
#86
as someone who is planning to master artisan with his alt, and is a crafter with his main, i am TOTALLY opposed to requiring certs for harvs. requiring certs for harvs puts a strangehold on the resource market, which is already extremely difficult to navigate.
it would, however, create a secondary economy for lot-trades with characters cross server who specifically train artisan for this purpose. does the game need a "miner" profession? yes. is requiring certs for harvs it? absolutely not.
EdOWar
Tue May 18, 2004 6:43 pm
#87
I have no problem with adding a mining profession, as long as that mining profession gets a new type of "super-heavy harvestor" to call it's own, rather than taking existing harvestors away from everyone. I also don't have a problem with artisans getting some kind of harvestor extraction bonus in the Survey line, or maybe with Master Artisan. That would make more sense, imo, than adding harvestor certs. The harvestor is a mechanical device...it's doing all the work. All we do is place it. Someone with proper training might be able to use it more efficiently (and hence get an extraction bonus). Similar to how anyone can use any weapon (save lightsabers for non-Jedi), but only someone with proper training can get maximum use out of them.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
Srednii
Tue May 18, 2004 6:45 pm
#88
GrafvonSoden wrote:
The Devs decided not to implement miner for what ever reason. But it was to come from the artisan line, hence the surveyor tree. I see harvesting as the elite way to sample. Only artisans can sample. And sampling improves the higher in survey tree you go, which is where miner would have been accessed from. So instead of implementing miner, they took the easy way out and let everyone control harvesters. And just because it was this way at the start, doesnt mean that is how it was meant to be or what is good for the game now. I use stat migration as an example of this. Something that we all could do at one time since the beginning, but only IDers can do now.
Thats right, the devs decided not to implement the ELITE crafting class the Miner. Why would they effectively recreate it in the starting class Artisan? If they did decide to implement these nerfs they'd probably stick them in one of the Elite crafting classes that still around.
Merchant sounds like a contender. Right now merchant is practically worthless, far more "broken" then artisan. If they decided to cert harvesters at all I'd guess they'd put them in Merchant. Merchant doesn't sound like the place you'd have mining skills any more then Artisan, but at least it's an Elite crafter, and it needs a hell of a lot more attention then Artisan does.
masselin
Tue May 18, 2004 7:01 pm
#89
the only problem i see is the cross server lot trading....
if i can have 50 harvesters running all the time on whatever resource they happen to beinstalled over, theni have anunfair advantage over other characters on my server. if a guild gets organized and can harvest ten times what i can because they are coordinated and organized.... then that is one of the benefits of being organized as a guild.
any profession that requires resources for crafting.... doctor, medic, combat medic, smuggler, architect, chef, artisan, armorsmith, droid engineer, weaponsmith, tailor and whatever else i'm forgetting, should be able to harvest the resources they needat the rate that heavy harvesters mine. itwould not be fair to requireprofessions like doc, combat medic, smuggler and bio engineer to spend 15 skill points on novice artisan just to harvest the materials needed to pursue their profession. it also would not be fair to require mastery in a profession before one could harvest at those levels as large quantities of resources are required to advance to mastery.
i believeitis beyond theabilities of the programming staff at soeto regulatea staticnumber of lots across characters on a single account. different servers exist in different locations,and would have to interact with each other and with the login server to keep in stepevery time a player planted a lot or destroyed a structure. it would be easier to reduce the number of characters creatable from eight down to like three... or preferably... one. butthat's probably impossible to do at this point from a legal angle and any more than one character per account does not prohibit cross server lot trading.
it's a good idea though i'm glad i read this thread... i think i'll log onto characters on seven other servers to see if i can get about 70 heavy harvesters planted on my main server...... if i can keep them running at an average of 5 units per minute, that'd be around 500k per day in resources that i could pull up, and if i sold them at 0.5 cpu, i could easily pull in a mil every couple of days.... nah, wouldn't be worth the time and effort... i'll stick to selling paintings, carpets and landspeeders that look like kleenex boxes....
masselin
Tue May 18, 2004 7:04 pm
#90
"Merchant doesn't sound like the place you'd have mining skills any more then Artisan......."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
you've got to admit that the surveying branch of artisan is directly related to harvesting resources.
UniformMarshal
Tue May 18, 2004 7:09 pm
#91
Its lot trading thats the problem. You cant compare Animal hunting to mineral mining. For one thing...You can only harvest a DEAD creature. So that scout has to pick up a second KILLING profession, to get the really big meat. You dont have to kill ANYTHING for minerals to just lay it, pay it and collect. The Scouts/rangers EARN thier right to keep thier harvesting certs