Artisan Archive
Thread: Master Artisan, the Welfare profession?
The only way something like this would work without totally disrupting Architects main source of income..( by removing probably 60% of our potential customers.. ) Is to implement Harvester Decay ... Only makes sense that theywould eventually break down..
I have always thought their should be a miner Profession
The only reason I am objecting is because of a lack of other ways to easily aquire income, especially for newer combat players climbing those combat trees...
If the devs provided other means, I doubt anyone would have reason to object (beyond being upset the harvestors they paid for they can no longer use...but heck, they can resell them...which might lead to the same holo crash we saw when the market get's flooded)...
One thing I recently proposed to the devs is granting Commandos a Mission Terminal of their own...granting more complex missionsthat in turn pay better then standard destroy missions...I've also pushed for Commandos getting their defenses up'd a bit so they could dabble less for those defenses...If both of these things happened, I'd see a lot less reasons for these types of players needing the income they get from harvestors...In otherwords, you can't take something out of the game without putting some type of fix in to compensate...
As a Correspondent I've really had to take a close look at any change I suggest, how will it affect other professions around me and will it upset the balance more or bring it more into balance? The question comes down to, if you remove harvestors certs from everyone but those with Artisan, who do you hurt, and does it do more damage then good? Are you helping one set of professions at the expense of many others? Where is the compensation to try gain a balance?
Message Edited by garvin on 05-14-2004 03:13 PM
garvin wrote:
Very good discussion here...just wanted to add my 2 cents...
Making Harvestors cert dependent would cause a REALLY nasty ripple effect that would mess things up more then they are already now...
First, Harvestor sales for Architects would drop serverly...As a Master Architect (my alt), my #1 selling item is Ore Harvestors, followed by all the other types of Harvestors...If only Artisans could use them, sales would drastrically decrease...
Second (and part of the first point), Many non-crafting professions rely on harvestors for the bulk of their income...Commandos and other Hybrid Professions especially who tend to drop all their Scouting Skills (can't harvest kills for income)...We tend to use our lots to plunk down mineral harvestors or power harvestors to sell and make some money (more then we can make just running endless missions)...It's that money they we use to buy things off of crafters (Artisan's included)...Take that source of income away and crafters might see a drop in sales stemming from that because the non-crafting professions will have less credits to spend...The reason this ties into the first point is that EVERY profession has a reason (for income) to buy harvestors in the current system...take that away and only Artisan professions will buy Harvestors leading back to Architects being impacted...
Personally I think this would be a HUGE mistake...In the end, Artisan professions would be shooting themselves in their own feet more then helping...The best solutions (already brought up) is granting better harvestors to Artisans or Harvesting bonuses...Maybe take the bigger harvestors and put them into the artisan trees but leave the smaller harvestors open to everyone...the worst solution would be making only them certed for Harvestors.
garvin wrote:
The only reason I am objecting is because of a lack of other ways to easily aquire income, especially for newer combat players climbing those combat trees...
If the devs provided other means, I doubt anyone would have reason to object (beyond being upset the harvestors they paid for they can no longer use...but heck, they can resell them...which might lead to the same holo crash we saw when the market get's flooded)...
One thing I recently proposed to the devs is granting Commandos a Mission Terminal of their own...granting more complex missionsthat in turn pay better then standard destroy missions...I've also pushed for Commandos getting their defenses up'd a bit so they could dabble less for those defenses...If both of these things happened, I'd see a lot less reasons for these types of players needing the income they get from harvestors...In otherwords, you can't take something out of the game without putting some type of fix in to compensate...
As a Correspondent I've really had to take a close look at any change I suggest, how will it affect other professions around me and will it upset the balance more or bring it more into balance? The question comes down to, if you remove harvestors certs from everyone but those with Artisan, who do you hurt, and does it do more damage then good? Are you helping one set of professions at the expense of many others? Where is the compensation to try gain a balance?
Message Edited by garvin on 05-14-2004 03:13 PM
this applies only if you assume the current situation is in balance... when in fact the opposite may be true... it may have been unbalanced all the time and your suggestion is to bring it into a more balanced situation..
SaleusCorwen wrote:
this applies only if you assume the current situation is in balance... when in fact the opposite may be true... it may have been unbalanced all the time and your suggestion is to bring it into a more balanced situation..
Not at all...I admit that the current system is already way out of balance...but moving the cert to just artisan (any level) would inturn do more damage then good...throwing things farther out of balance since it would cause a negative ripple effect unless something was done to compensate...
Basically it's taking something out of balance and pushing it farther out of balance for the majority to help the minority...
Think about it this way...if you allowed everyone to harvest creatures, what do you leave Scouts left with to sell? Camps and Traps...but you have to be a scout to use Traps or Camps so the market isn't very big...
Message Edited by garvin on 05-14-2004 04:04 PM
Garvin we would be idiots if we suggested something that unbalanced the game.
What would it unbalance by making crafting professions the only one with harvesters and factories? The argument has been that combat class's wouldnt be able to make enough money? I think a strong argument you could make agianst us would be to show some proof that it would in fact put other professions in an unreasonably bad situation.
Realistically Im not seeing the problem and the idea I get from your argument has been that you want to be super rich instead of just rich. Theres a line that has to be drawn somewhere in your argument.
I agree that harvesters should have a decay in any harvester certification system so that architects could stil make a reasonable buisness(No more or no less). And I would agree that maybe loot and mission rewards might even need to be bumped for the combat role's. I went on a combat gorup hunt last week for the first time since retail launch and I would get like 1000 credits here and 50 credits there. Plus the mission rewards were like 500 a person. And this was a bunch of first week players. I have no idea how high the high end content scales in term of rewards but im assuming its quite good. So if you can argue the opposite I will agree with you on a compensation or a entirely new solution.
Garvin we would be idiots if we suggested something that unbalanced the game.
First off...I'm not trying to call anyone an idiot or flaming anyone in anyway...just enjoying a very good discussion going on here...especially since this type of change would effect more then just those directly in the Artisan Profession.
What would it unbalance by making crafting professions the only one with harvesters and factories? The argument has been that combat class's wouldnt be able to make enough money? I think a strong argument you could make agianst us would be to show some proof that it would in fact put other professions in an unreasonably bad situation.
The strongest arguement is that many Combat players harvest for income...I think another strong arguement is that I, as a Master Commando, can make more money harvesting then I can hunting for loot...Much of my income when I first was progressing in the game was due to using harvestors...I wouldn't have the armor or weapons I do today without that ability...and I'm not alone...that's the proof...my income would have been less, which inturn, would have meant I would have spent less and at a slower rate...
To twist your words a bit...show me an arguement where Artisan's need the cert to be exclusive more then other professions need it...As I've mentioned before, I'm a Master of 3 different Crafting Professions (Arch, DE and Artisan) and I make much more money with my Crafter then I do with my Commando (and I play the Commando much more)...My crafter's income is dependent on people buying my wares...If I take earning potential away from those who buy my wares, my Crafter will make less money...why would I do that?
Realistically Im not seeing the problem and the idea I get from your argument has been that you want to be super rich instead of just rich. Theres a line that has to be drawn somewhere in your argument.
I think you really stretching things there...How does being a Commando make you rich? Who has the most money in game? Crafters or Combat types? The fact that Armorsmiths, Weaponsmiths and Architects alone have much more money then most Combat players defeates your entire statement...I'm not talking about making the rich richer...Even with harvested sales and looted items, I never make anywhere close to what my Architect makes...I think your arguement is backwards here...
I agree that harvesters should have a decay in any harvester certification system so that architects could stil make a reasonable buisness(No more or no less). And I would agree that maybe loot and mission rewards might even need to be bumped for the combat role's. I went on a combat gorup hunt last week for the first time since retail launch and I would get like 1000 credits here and 50 credits there. Plus the mission rewards were like 500 a person. And this was a bunch of first week players. I have no idea how high the high end content scales in term of rewards but im assuming its quite good. So if you can argue the opposite I will agree with you on a compensation or a entirely new solution.
Commandos and other types will only ever get super rich if they get the super loot....how many (percentage wise) really obtain that type of loot...look at how many combat players are in game and how many actually are selling good loots (look at the various actions for proof)...it's a small percentage that has the good stuff to sell...Most Combat types eek by a decent living, and in most cases, everything they earn (me included) goes right back into buying items they need for future combat...If I make 500K from loots and harvesting, that helps to pay for a new suit of good armor to replace my heavily damaged one trying to get that good loot that will make harvesting not necessary...
You seem to think that Master Commando (or Master of any other Profession) means I can run out and get million dollar loots...or at least that's the impression you are giving me...how many destroy missions would I need to run to afford one set of good Composite armor at today's prices? Now factor in that by the time I run enough missions, my Flame Thrower will need to be replace (at average cost of around 35K)...Now also factor in the skill mods I have to rebuy because my armor died....of course I could just have my armor repaired, but do we really want to visit the issues there?
There are a lot of factors not being considered here...you may feel that this change doesn't unbalance anything...and that's your opinion...I fully support that...but the fact that I my alt is a Crafter, I don't see any convicing arguement that this change will help me more then it will hurt others...I may not be convincing you, but you are not convincing me either...
PS...I still think this whole thread is great and never take anything personally...I really enjoy the discussion and I think everyone here is doing a great job of looking at the issue from all sides...it's quite impressive that this thread hasn't escalated into a flame war...you should all be proud of that...
Dvnce,
I don't think most of the proponents of this idea object to harvester decay. I don't. But if folks charge too much for the harvs...I will use my own BER 4 personals.
Garvin,
Can you please explain how the change of not allowing non-artisans to use harvesters for the most part will negatively impact the crafting professions? I can see how it would negatively effect high-volume crafters who buy most of their resources. But please tell me how you think this will negatively affect the average master armorsmith, master architect, or master weaponsmith. I see this as more something that will level the playing field. And which might have the buyers rather than the sellers of high-quality crafted items spamming at starports. 
I'm very encouraged that we have attracted the attention of both the commando correspondent and the architect correspondent. This means to me that we are likely being taken very seriously.
I have a suggestion for commandos who want to go out and just earn money rather than doing missions. If you want to gather things, for instance with your current skill set, Garvin, you can just trade novice medic for novice scout and get a harvest droid. Harvest droids are so effective that rangers are somewhat unhappy about it. Go hunt the meat or hide you need using the harvest droid. When you are done, drop novice scout and retrain novice medic. Total cost of retraining: 200 credits and travel expenses to a newbie area.
A commando mission terminal is an interesting idea that I wouldn't oppose. But I don't see anything to prevent TKMs, fencers, swordsmen, riflemen, rangers,and others from asking for their own elite class mission terminals. And why specifically would someone hire a commando for a particular mission than just anyone? I might like to see special missions at the faction terminals for groups of commandos....that would make sense. These are the elite warriors of each side.
Can you please explain how the change of not allowing non-artisans to use harvesters for the most part will negatively impact the crafting professions? I can see how it would negatively effect high-volume crafters who buy most of their resources. But please tell me how you think this will negatively affect the average master armorsmith, master architect, or master weaponsmith. I see this as more something that will level the playing field. And which might have the buyers rather than the sellers of high-quality crafted items spamming at starports.
garvin wrote:
Garvin we would be idiots if we suggested something that unbalanced the game.
First off...I'm not trying to call anyone an idiot or flaming anyone in anyway...just enjoying a very good discussion going on here...especially since this type of change would effect more then just those directly in the Artisan Profession.
Never said you were, and I am also very much enjoying the discussion.
What would it unbalance by making crafting professions the only one with harvesters and factories? The argument has been that combat class's wouldnt be able to make enough money? I think a strong argument you could make agianst us would be to show some proof that it would in fact put other professions in an unreasonably bad situation.
The strongest arguement is that many Combat players harvest for income...I think another strong arguement is that I, as a Master Commando, can make more money harvesting then I can hunting for loot...Much of my income when I first was progressing in the game was due to using harvestors...I wouldn't have the armor or weapons I do today without that ability...and I'm not alone...that's the proof...my income would have been less, which inturn, would have meant I would have spent less and at a slower rate...
To twist your words a bit...show me an arguement where Artisan's need the cert to be exclusive more then other professions need it...As I've mentioned before, I'm a Master of 3 different Crafting Professions (Arch, DE and Artisan) and I make much more money with my Crafter then I do with my Commando (and I play the Commando much more)...My crafter's income is dependent on people buying my wares...If I take earning potential away from those who buy my wares, my Crafter will make less money...why would I do that?
Sure, well as it is right now the economy is so saturated and people have so much resources that it is ruining the crafting professions. Players with access to guilds and wahtnot have enormous resources. This in turns leads to excessive production and flood of the economy. Give crafters harvester certifications and you will see a much normal production rate which will probably balance the majority of crafters on scale with each other. There will always be good crafters and better items but on a much widespread scale then currently because more people will have the oppurtunity to sell their carfted items You make more money with your crafter becuase there are endless supplies of resources which means you can mass produce anything you want if you were in a guild or had a few friends. It woudlnt take away any earning potential it would just balance it.
And as a new player do you think you deserve to be able to buy the best items to support you up until your mastering professions? I dont. And from what iv'e seen looted credits and mission rewards are pretty substantial. In fact I just had someone tell me that they can make 10's of thousands in a very short time doing combat missions. That doesnt seem very insignificant to me. And from my own experiences I can even take those numbers as truth. Maybe your so diluted by making LOADS of money from harvesting you cant appreciate the value of the money you get from missions and loot.
Realistically Im not seeing the problem and the idea I get from your argument has been that you want to be super rich instead of just rich. Theres a line that has to be drawn somewhere in your argument.
I think you really stretching things there...How does being a Commando make you rich? Who has the most money in game? Crafters or Combat types? The fact that Armorsmiths, Weaponsmiths and Architects alone have much more money then most Combat players defeates your entire statement...I'm not talking about making the rich richer...Even with harvested sales and looted items, I never make anywhere close to what my Architect makes...I think your arguement is backwards here...
I have no idea who has the most money. Maybe crafters are so rich becuase there are so many resources on the market that they are selling 1000's of more items then they should be by mass producing more then the american economy can in RL with only .01% of the people. Which strengthens the idea that harvesters need to be rebalanced so mass production isnt such a concern and then maybe combat professions can come in line with crafters in money making.
I agree that harvesters should have a decay in any harvester certification system so that architects could stil make a reasonable buisness(No more or no less). And I would agree that maybe loot and mission rewards might even need to be bumped for the combat role's. I went on a combat gorup hunt last week for the first time since retail launch and I would get like 1000 credits here and 50 credits there. Plus the mission rewards were like 500 a person. And this was a bunch of first week players. I have no idea how high the high end content scales in term of rewards but im assuming its quite good. So if you can argue the opposite I will agree with you on a compensation or a entirely new solution.
Commandos and other types will only ever get super rich if they get the super loot....how many (percentage wise) really obtain that type of loot...look at how many combat players are in game and how many actually are selling good loots (look at the various actions for proof)...it's a small percentage that has the good stuff to sell...Most Combat types eek by a decent living, and in most cases, everything they earn (me included) goes right back into buying items they need for future combat...If I make 500K from loots and harvesting, that helps to pay for a new suit of good armor to replace my heavily damaged one trying to get that good loot that will make harvesting not necessary...
You seem to think that Master Commando (or Master of any other Profession) means I can run out and get million dollar loots...or at least that's the impression you are giving me...how many destroy missions would I need to run to afford one set of good Composite armor at today's prices? Now factor in that by the time I run enough missions, my Flame Thrower will need to be replace (at average cost of around 35K)...Now also factor in the skill mods I have to rebuy because my armor died....of course I could just have my armor repaired, but do we really want to visit the issues there?
There are a lot of factors not being considered here...you may feel that this change doesn't unbalance anything...and that's your opinion...I fully support that...but the fact that I my alt is a Crafter, I don't see any convicing arguement that this change will help me more then it will hurt others...I may not be convincing you, but you are not convincing me either...
PS...I still think this whole thread is great and never take anything personally...I really enjoy the discussion and I think everyone here is doing a great job of looking at the issue from all sides...it's quite impressive that this thread hasn't escalated into a flame war...you should all be proud of that...
So your saying Armorsmith's repairing armor is broken? Thats an Armorsmith issue, and if it is intended they should be able to then I dont think we should factor that into our argument.
While Commandos may not be lucky enough to get million credit drops all the time. But im trying to understand how much money a Commando would make on a normal day to day basis with casual gameplay. How much are you getting for group missions at master level. How much you get at Novice level. How much are average to above average weapons and armor. How much are credit drops on NPCs that a commando might encounter. I dont really know alot of these numbers.
And do you think that everyone should be privelaged to buying the very very best armor and weapons? Not without commitment. If I player has to do missions and kill NPCs for 2 weeks instead of 1 week to get the best armor or weapons so be it. I dont think they should be rewarded for logging in once every 2 or 3 weeks to check harvesters and then go buy the best weapons and amror is justified. Multiply on this that they dont even need the resources so they are getting 100% profit. All while saturating the economy and ruining the crafting professions to be mass producing endless supplies either monopolizing cutomers or just plain stockpiling.
I also am not trying to disuage opinion or make any personal attacks im just trying to understand the balance aspects and make a suggestion that will make the game better with integrity.
joined42904 wrote:
Dvnce,
I don't think most of the proponents of this idea object to harvester decay. I don't. But if folks charge too much for the harvs...I will use my own BER 4 personals.